Aboriginal Mafia Sell Cigarettes In Western Canada And Govt Yawns

[bill barilko]

Interesting this should come up now-I was in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver (Skid Road)- yesterday and I noticed a couple people smoking filter tip ready mades.

Now those are expensive and it's a dirt poor neighbourhood I wondered if they weren't Chinese brands smuggle in/sold under the counter.

The Abo connection makes as much sense.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

I have to obey the law, why do aboriginal get a pass?

You don't. Have you ever heard of a "free man on the land"? Look it up. The law is an ass! Kick it (the habit that is). Or as Bob Dylan once said, "It takes an honest man to live outside the law."

Well Mr Realist, we all obey the law every day. Most people are afraid of going to jail and we are law abiding. The fed govt is weak here, very very weak.

The problem is treating everyone equally, that is the key point here. When a govt doesn't enforce the law equally, it is fundamentally unsound and possibly corrupt.

 

[CDNBear]

Well Mr Realist, we all obey the law every day. Most people are afraid of going to jail and we are law abiding. The fed govt is weak here, very very weak.

OK, you've said that. Now can you actually cite the law that dictates who has to collect taxes on personal sales? Or the laws that pertain to cigarette sales?

The problem is treating everyone equally, that is the key point here. When a govt doesn't enforce the law equally, it is fundamentally unsound and possibly corrupt.

Try reading this...

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/c...das-forgotten-founders-modern-signifance.html

 

[Praxius]

Well Mr Realist, we all obey the law every day. Most people are afraid of going to jail and we are law abiding. The fed govt is weak here, very very weak....

The problem in the arguments towards cracking down on natives, is that they're not breaking any rules. They're legally allowed to make tobacco products, sell and use them amongst themselves.... the only people who are breaking the law are non-natives who purchase these smokes and do not pay the taxes the government demands they do.

If anybody is abusing the system, it's non-natives, not the natives themselves.

It's like a police officer being allowed to possess and operate a handgun, yet if you as a civilian possess and operate a handgun without proper papers and such, you can be charged.... not the company that manufactured the firearm in question.

If people think there's a serious problem here that needs to be addressed, address it properly.

 

[CDNBear]

The problem in the arguments towards cracking down on natives, is that they're not breaking any rules. They're legally allowed to make tobacco products, sell and use them amongst themselves.... the only people who are breaking the law are non-natives who purchase these smokes and do not pay the taxes the government demands they do.

If anybody is abusing the system, it's non-natives, not the natives themselves.

Legally? Yes they can. One merely has to have an understanding of the law, or a good lawyer. And of course be holding under certain limits, lol.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

OK, you've said that. Now can you actually cite the law that dictates who has to collect taxes on personal sales? Or the laws that pertain to cigarette sales?

Try reading this...

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/c...das-forgotten-founders-modern-signifance.html

I read that link, it is just academic thumb twiddling. Aboriginals are nations because they have their own languages, BC has dozens of aboriginal languages. Those that say aboriginals are different will get no argument from me, they are.

However, a nation is not sovereign if it requires millions and billions of dollars from a benefactor to survive. If it does, we are not talking about an independent, sovereign nation.

A sovereign nation can prevent other nations from entering its soil, and aboriginals cannot do this in Canada. Japan, Russia, India, Egypt, and Turkey can do this. The Cree in Canada cannot.

Quote:

"As they argued in their petitions, the 'Six Nations' had never been conquered and they had never accepted alien sovereignty. Since the time of first contact, they had always insisted that they were allies, not subjects, of Britain."

Britain is gone. Now the ruler is Canada and what do we need aboriginal allies for? The Six Nations had not been conquered militarily, just pushed around as if they didn't exist. Some call this victory. So they feel they are in a legal limbo. That's their perspective and many Canadians wish to pursue this point. It is however irresponsible to waste millions of dollars on lawyers while Indians have up to 50% unemployment on reserves and have lives that are going nowhere. Some tradition.

For this academic, this is another fascinating subject to study. Red men, wooo wooo.


Dear Six Nations,

What kind of passport do you use to travel to Europe? Africa? China? Sweden? Where are your embassies around the world? Your currency? Sovereignty needs power to back it up.

 

[AnnaG]

I read that link, it is just academic thumb twiddling. Aboriginals are nations because they have their own languages, BC has dozens of aboriginal languages. Those that say aboriginals are different will get no argument from me, they are.

However, a nation is not sovereign if it requires millions and billions of dollars from a benefactor to survive. If it does, we are not talking about an independent, sovereign nation.

A sovereign nation can prevent other nations from entering its soil, and aboriginals cannot do this in Canada. Japan, Russia, India, Egypt, and Turkey can do this. The Cree in Canada cannot.

Quote:

"As they argued in their petitions, the 'Six Nations' had never been conquered and they had never accepted alien sovereignty. Since the time of first contact, they had always insisted that they were allies, not subjects, of Britain."

Britain is gone. Now the ruler is Canada and what do we need aboriginal allies for? The Six Nations had not been conquered militarily, just pushed around as if they didn't exist. Some call this victory. So they feel they are in a legal limbo. That's their perspective and many Canadians wish to pursue this point. It is however irresponsible to waste millions of dollars on lawyers while Indians have up to 50% unemployment on reserves and have lives that are going nowhere. Some tradition.

For this academic, this is another fascinating subject to study. Red men, wooo wooo.


Dear Six Nations,

What kind of passport do you use to travel to Europe? Africa? China? Sweden? Where are your embassies around the world? Your currency? Sovereignty needs power to back it up.

Get a grip. Aboriginal nations survived quite well for millenia before European interference and if left to their own devices could survive for millenia more without Canadian interference.
As far as I know there are clans in South America that do just that even to this day.

 

[Praxius]

Legally? Yes they can. One merely has to have an understanding of the law, or a good lawyer. And of course be holding under certain limits, lol.

^ Wait, for clarification, was that in reference to handguns or tobacco?

 

[CDNBear]

I read that link, it is just academic thumb twiddling. Aboriginals are nations because they have their own languages, BC has dozens of aboriginal languages. Those that say aboriginals are different will get no argument from me, they are.

You obviously didn't read the article.

However, a nation is not sovereign if it requires millions and billions of dollars from a benefactor to survive. If it does, we are not talking about an independent, sovereign nation.

Then by all means, post how much per year the Haudenosaunee receive in funds from the Federal Government that did not come from our sizable and extensive trust. By the way was generated by legitimate and documented land deals, that are not subject to claims disputes.

A sovereign nation can prevent other nations from entering its soil, and aboriginals cannot do this in Canada. Japan, Russia, India, Egypt, and Turkey can do this. The Cree in Canada cannot.

Yes we can. As we saw in Oka.

Britain is gone. Now the ruler is Canada and what do we need aboriginal allies for?

Don't know, don't care, the Crown, both the actual Monarch and the figurative Federal, have in place, Treaty, and Charter that recognizes the preceding Treaties.

The Six Nations had not been conquered militarily, just pushed around as if they didn't exist. Some call this victory. So they feel they are in a legal limbo. That's their perspective and many Canadians wish to pursue this point. It is however irresponsible to waste millions of dollars on lawyers while Indians have up to 50% unemployment on reserves and have lives that are going nowhere. Some tradition.

:roll:

For this academic, this is another fascinating subject to study. Red men, wooo wooo.

Well that about sums up the level of your reasoned debate.

Dear Six Nations,

What kind of passport do you use to travel to Europe? Africa? China? Sweden? Where are your embassies around the world? Your currency? Sovereignty needs power to back it up.

Dear Dump,

By choice? We don't have one. Forced? Canadian and American, by and large. Why? Because we could not travel without them. Due to the International Law, restricting freedom of movement as a crime. Canada and the US being signatories to that Convention. Therefore it was forced to issue passports to Natives. As the State refused to acknowledge our sovereignty and had made sure that the Haudenosaunee were illegally barred from addressing this issue on an International level.

Feel free to stick that in your Peace Pipe and smoke it...;-)

Sincerely,
Ohkwai

 

[CDNBear]

^ Wait, for clarification, was that in reference to handguns or tobacco?

Tobacco.

 

[Praxius]

Get a grip. Aboriginal nations survived quite well for millenia before European interference and if left to their own devices could survive for millenia more without Canadian interference.
As far as I know there are clans in South America that do just that even to this day.

The problem now is that North American natives are enclosed by the US or Canada and it's hard for them to get the resources they require, where as in the past, they could easily travel from one native village to the next to trade and get the resources they needed, or hunt where they wanted, how ever much they required, whatever they required, etc.

 

[Praxius]

Tobacco.

Ah ok... I just thought that if you're native and have your Native Status, that's all that was required to possess and use tobacco made by natives.

I didn't know you needed all that or that there were "certain limits."

 

[CDNBear]

Ah ok... I just thought that if you're native and have your Native Status, that's all that was required to possess and use tobacco made by natives.

It is. But that doesn't bar Non natives from purchasing or posessing Native Tobacco products either.

I didn't know you needed all that or that there were "certain limits."

It's the same with dope. Under certain limits and there is no crime.

If you sell a brand new pair of shoes that you just bought, to you neighbour, have you broken a law?

 

[AnnaG]

The problem now is that North American natives are enclosed by the US or Canada and it's hard for them to get the resources they require, where as in the past, they could easily travel from one native village to the next to trade and get the resources they needed, or hunt where they wanted, how ever much they required, whatever they required, etc.

Yup. Like I said, if there were no interference from others, aboriginals could get along quite well for another pile of millennia.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

You obviously didn't read the article.

Then by all means, post how much per year the Haudenosaunee receive in funds from the Federal Government that did not come from our sizable and extensive trust. By the way was generated by legitimate and documented land deals, that are not subject to claims disputes.

Yes we can. As we saw in Oka.

Don't know, don't care, the Crown, both the actual Monarch and the figurative Federal, have in place, Treaty, and Charter that recognizes the preceding Treaties.

:roll:

Well that about sums up the level of your reasoned debate.


Dear Dump,

By choice? We don't have one. Forced? Canadian and American, by and large. Why? Because we could not travel without them. Due to the International Law, restricting freedom of movement as a crime. Canada and the US being signatories to that Convention. Therefore it was forced to issue passports to Natives. As the State refused to acknowledge our sovereignty and had made sure that the Haudenosaunee were illegally barred from addressing this issue on an International level.

Feel free to stick that in your Peace Pipe and smoke it...;-)

Sincerely,
Ohkwai

I read the article, it started off about equality and old treaties when they are applied to every actions, outside of govt, are a problem.

Oka is in Quebec, and Quebec uses Oka to bolster its idea as a separate society-but still wants large amounts of money from the rest of Canada. And our weak politicians let it happen to appease Quebec and anyone else.

It was a standoff because the govt of Quebec was dumb, and there was no need to escalate the standoff. And Quebec is weak on these matters. Aboriginals have rights, I never said they don't, but they come from documents that are quite old and from another reality.

When the British made treaties and Canada took them over, things changed. I need not honour a contract in a new world and by people I need a passport to get to their country-England.

Canada does not need to be forced by anyone to give aboriginals passports. They live in Canada, follow the laws, and need a passport to leave, a right all people have in the country. Nothing special there.

 

[AnnaG]

I read the article, it started off about equality and old treaties when they are applied to every actions, outside of govt, are a problem.

Oka is in Quebec, and Quebec uses Oka to bolster its idea as a separate society-but still wants large amounts of money from the rest of Canada. And our weak politicians let it happen to appease Quebec and anyone else.

It was a standoff because the govt of Quebec was dumb, and there was no need to escalate the standoff. And Quebec is weak on these matters. Aboriginals have rights, I never said they don't, but they come from documents that are quite old and from another reality.

When the British made treaties and Canada took them over, things changed. I need not honour a contract in a new world and by people I need a passport to get to their country-England.

Canada does not need to be forced by anyone to give aboriginals passports. They live in Canada, follow the laws, and need a passport to leave, a right all people have in the country. Nothing special there.

Actually an aboriginal used to need only his/her status card to get into the States. And the States have been quite accommodating and given Canada a lot of leeway about the new cards.
(Maybe my family's apps and cards are stuck in the mail?)

Secure Certificate of Indian Status (SCIS)

 

[CDNBear]

I read the article, it started off about equality and old treaties when they are applied to every actions, outside of govt, are a problem.

Those old treaties, are still as powerful today as the day the were written. This is evident by your use of the land ceded. If you wish to rewrite history, you must include your place in it. Not simply somebody else's.

Oka is in Quebec, and Quebec uses Oka to bolster its idea as a separate society-but still wants large amounts of money from the rest of Canada. And our weak politicians let it happen to appease Quebec and anyone else.

That's true, and I completely agree on the Fed vs Quebec. If Quebec were to try that same silly sh!t today. I can guarantee you, that due to the criminal element you highlight in your OP. The outcome would be far more bloody.

It was a standoff because the govt of Quebec was dumb, and there was no need to escalate the standoff. And Quebec is weak on these matters. Aboriginals have rights, I never said they don't, but they come from documents that are quite old and from another reality.

Another reality? Would that be the same reality that the majority of Canadians enjoy today on land ceded from those Treaties? I don't see how the use of lands ceded from those old Treaties is somehow no longer reality, when the fruits are still being enjoyed by one of the parties to the Treaty.

When the British made treaties and Canada took them over, things changed. I need not honour a contract in a new world and by people I need a passport to get to their country-England.

Unfortunately, you do. Under International and Domestic Law. You seem to want to hold us Natives to account under the Law, while you argue to dismiss an International and Domestic Law that merely suits your whims. Is that hypocrisy or greed?

Canada does not need to be forced by anyone to give aboriginals passports.

So you think. The sad reality is that The Dominion of Canada acted illegally, thus forcing the Haudenosaunee to be dependent on certain Federally provided institutions and services. You have no one to blame but Canada for that. If they had not illegally blocked our procession to the League of Nations. The Haudenosaunee would be a sovereign country, and you would be having a much different conversation with someone else. Your anger and contempt is misplaced.

They live in Canada, follow the laws, and need a passport to leave, a right all people have in the country. Nothing special there.

Agreed. So what's you beef? Can't have your cake and eat it too? I don't follow you.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Actually an aboriginal used to need only his/her status card to get into the States. And the States have been quite accommodating and given Canada a lot of leeway about the new cards.
(Maybe my family's apps and cards are stuck in the mail?)

Secure Certificate of Indian Status (SCIS)

The SCIS isn't be good enough to travel to Europe, Asia, Africa, or Australia.

 

[AnnaG]

The SCIS isn't be good enough to travel to Europe, Asia, Africa, or Australia.

So what? It's good enough to cross the border. The reason? You could look up the "Jay treaty".

Actually I'll help out:

First Nations and Native Americans Born in Canada

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

So what? It's good enough to cross the border. The reason? You could look up the "Jay treaty".

Actually I'll help out:

First Nations and Native Americans Born in Canada

I never said aboriginals couldn't travel to the US. One country. One. Another 200 or so require a passport.