The definition of Liberalism

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP
I do not lay all the world economic problems all at Harpers feet

I don't think you lay any economic problems at Harper's feet.

- The Liberals when in power were trying to lessen the controls on banks -Some Canadian Banks could have gone the same way as many in the US did. To think otherwise is foolish -

Canadian banks were never in any danger of defaulting. Liberals kept sensible, reasonable controls in place, unlike Republicans in USA, who got rid of all the controls.

Yes I would agree that the GST should increase - Helps the Govt books - keeps interest rates and inflation down which if we have interest rate hikes with a $ almost at par would cause a severe impact on Canadian Business and household debt.

In this you are a rarity among conservatives (in fact, I don't think you are a conservative at all, if you support tax increases). Most conservatives support tax cuts, no matter how much the debt and how much the deficit.

The Liberals under Chretien /Martin the Knife - referring to his march to push Chretien out - inherited a massive deficit - But the public was ready for cuts - They also reaped the benefits of an economic rebound in the US from George Bush, GST from Mulroney and yes NAFTA again from Mulroney - that with a low dollar put us in the black -

No doubt Liberals were helped by economic rebound. However, Liberals also made some painful choices and made some cuts. Many people were mad at Liberals for that. Liberals showed uncommon courage in balancing the budget. The fact that they were helped by a strong economy (and perhaps even by GST, I don’t know enough about GST to comment on that) diminishes their achievement, not in the slightest.

The philosophy of yours that whoever in power reaps the benefits or the wrath is simplistic at the least - It is the polices that are promoted - that is what goes into the history books - History does not begin or end with one Govt as you so often like to think.

That is how people see it, Goober. The party in power gets the credit or the blame for whatever happens.

In 97 the books were balanced yet the cuts continued - The shortage of skilled works, medical professionals were brought to the Govts attention in the early 90's - and we saw the result during the last upturn in the economy - we still feel it in the Medical professions

Doctor shortage is the fault of provincial governments of all stripes, not the federal government. In the 90s, provincial governments also were trying to cut budgets, and cutting on training posts for doctors seemed like a painless way to do it. They were warned by medical organizations, to no avail. And there all three parties and all the provinces are to blame, no particular party or particular province carried the sole blame.

 

[DaSleeper]

Yup..... pension income splitting for seniors is benefiting the rich, and so is municipal tax rebate of up to 500$ by Mcguinty for seniors...:roll:

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Yup..... pension income splitting for seniors is benefiting the rich, and so is municipal tax rebate of up to 500$ by Mcguinty for seniors...:roll:

And icome trusts benefit the................................................. Conservatives...........:smile:

 

[DaSleeper]

And icome trusts benefit the................................................. Conservatives...........:smile:

:smile:I wouldn't know I don't have enough money to buy into that...my stock market buying days are over.....I'm in the withdrawal part of the process now:lol::lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yup..... pension income splitting for seniors is benefiting the rich, and so is municipal tax rebate of up to 500$ by Mcguinty for seniors...:roll:

Quite. Harper is borrowing more than 1000 $ each, every year from your kids and your grandkids and he is giving some of it back to you. How generous of him. Your kids and grandkids will have to pay for it. But hey, that is in the future, why worry about that now, right? Let us enjoy, have a party with the borrowed money.

 

[lone wolf]

Isn't that cute how they won't even acknowledge McGuinty's deficit?

 

[DaSleeper]

To think some people believe their own copy/paste:lol: Deja vu...Gawd people are funny:roll:

 

[DaSleeper]

Isn't that cute how they won't even acknowledge McGuinty's deficit?

And all the tax breaks the good doctor gets... that don't count.... what is that Liberal line oh yes ...I'm entitled to my entitlements...

 

[Risus]

It's about time

I won't deny that. Miller is always crying about money and it looks good on him.

 

[DaSleeper]

YouTube - I'm Entitled To My Entitlements - David Dingwall

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Isn't that cute how they won't even acknowledge McGuinty's deficit?

LW isn't Ontario’s deficit left behind by the NDP, before McGuinty?
and why did Ontarians gave him two majorities?

In the provincial election of 2003, Dalton McGuinty led the Liberal party to a majority government. He and his party earned a second consecutive majority on October 10, 2007. He has represented the riding oIn the provincial election of 2003, Dalton McGuinty led the Liberal party to a majority government. He and his party earned a second consecutive majority on October 10, 2007. He has represented the riding of Ottawa South as its MPP since 1990.
Office of the Premier, Dalton McGuinty | Home

 

[lone wolf]

LW isn't Ontario’s deficit left behind by the NDP, before McGuinty?
and why did Ontarians gave him two majorities?

In the provincial election of 2003, Dalton McGuinty led the Liberal party to a majority government. He and his party earned a second consecutive majority on October 10, 2007. He has represented the riding oIn the provincial election of 2003, Dalton McGuinty led the Liberal party to a majority government. He and his party earned a second consecutive majority on October 10, 2007. He has represented the riding of Ottawa South as its MPP since 1990.
Office of the Premier, Dalton McGuinty | Home

There were nine years worth of Harris between ... and they had Peterson's Liberals before that and a Paul Martin transfer shortfall (to balance the budget) in the meantime. To top it all off, Rae wasn't left enough for the party.

While you're Googling to make dummies, look up yesterdays budget deficit ... by this LIBERAL government.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

There where nine years worth of Harris between ... and they had Peterson's Liberals before that and a Paul Martin transfer shortfall (to balance the budget) in the meantime.

While you're Googling to make dummies, look up yesterdays budget deficit ... by this LIBERAL government.

LW no point with the put down, "Goggling", I live in BC I pay attention to BC politics and Federal .
I don’t have the time to be on the political watch on all 10 Canadian provinces. So thanks to Google it has the info for the provinces I am rusty on, what is so wrong with that?. If I am wrong do the friendly thing and correct me I wont take offence.:smile:

 

[lone wolf]

LW no point with the put down, "Goggling", I live in BC I pay attention to BC politics and Federal .
I don’t have the time to be on the political watch on all 10 Canadian provinces. So thanks to Google it has the info for the provinces I am rusty on, what is so wrong with that?. If I am wrong do the friendly thing and correct me I wont take offence.:smile:

Now, if you took it as a put down, you must be the one to watch. We are, after all, the measure by which we gauge others.

Did you happen to notice when the NDP left office? Obviously there was somebody there in between them and McGuinty. Right?

Did you happen to notice that during the NDP government, Mulrony's PC left office and Chretien's Liberals got in - who balanced their budget while, coincidently, provincial transfers were cut.

I appreciate that you did some Google. It shows. I mean that. It really does....


BTW ... what do you think of McGuinty's budget?

Liberals don't do deficit....

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Now, if you took it as a put down, you must be the one to watch. We are, after all, the measure by which we gauge others.

Did you happen to notice when the NDP left office? Obviously there was somebody there in between them and McGuinty. Right?

Did you happen to notice that during the NDP government, Mulrony's PC left office and Chretien's Liberals got in - who balanced their budget while, coincidently, provincial transfers were cut.

I appreciate that you did some Google. It shows. I mean that. It really does....


BTW ... what do you think of McGuinty's budget?

Liberals don't do deficit....

The Ontario government mapped a slow road to balancing the province's books on Thursday, projecting a deficit of $19.7 billion for fiscal year 2010-11 and saying it would stay in the red until 2017-18.


Even though I am rusty on Ontario political affairs one thing I know, is that the recession we are supposedly coming out of, in the past 2.5 years the Federal financial landscape had an impact on all provinces. Ontario did suffer many job losses as a result of the Automobile industry melt down. That should have an impact on McGuinty's Liberal Governments financial affairs. Did it not?
If the Harris Conservatives and the Bob Ray NDP left a mess behind, what, you blame the liberals for getting caught in a bad recession, and battling a financial mess left behind by other Governments.?
Les than a year ego the Ottawa Citizen Friday,May 01, 2009 had the Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberal party on a commanding 15-point lead above the Opposition Conservatives and NDP/ Why is that if they have done so bad?:smile:

 

[lone wolf]

The Ontario government mapped a slow road to balancing the province's books on Thursday, projecting a deficit of $19.7 billion for fiscal year 2010-11 and saying it would stay in the red until 2017-18.


Even though I am rusty on Ontario political affairs one thing I know, is that the recession we are supposedly coming out of, in the past 2.5 years the Federal financial landscape had an impact on all provinces. Ontario did suffer many job losses as a result of the Automobile industry melt down. That should have an impact on McGuinty's Liberal Governments financial affairs. Did it not?
If the Harris Conservatives and the Bob Ray NDP left a mess behind, what, you blame the liberals for getting caught in a bad recession, and battling a financial mess left behind by other Governments.?
Les than a year ego the Ottawa Citizen Friday,May 01, 2009 had the Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberal party on a commanding 15-point lead above the Opposition Conservatives and NDP/ Why is that if they have done so bad?:smile:

As did outside influences and Peterson issues have their impacts on Rae's ... or Diefenbaker's on Pearson ... or Trudeau's on Clark ... or Mulroney's on Campbell. You can finger point all you want to preserve the integrity of your sacred Liberals. Sometimes ignoring the point is a great means of deflection and tip-toeing around the point. Mom called it the Liberal Slide. Yes ... the good times carpet was yanked from beneath McGuinty's feet. I know it had to be done and deficit couldn't be avoided just to tide things over. I applaud McGuinty's judgement in that. According to that stuff you speak, Liberals don't run deficits.


Well do they or don't they?

 

[Socrates the Greek]

As did outside influences and Peterson issues have their impacts on Rae's ... or Diefenbaker's on Pearson ... or Trudeau's on Clark ... or Mulroney's on Campbell. You can finger point all you want to preserve the integrity of your sacred Liberals. Sometimes ignoring the point is a great means of deflection and tip-toeing around the point. Mom called it the Liberal Slide. Yes ... the good times carpet was yanked from beneath McGuinty's feet. I know it had to be done and deficit couldn't be avoided just to tide things over. I applaud McGuinty's judgement in that. According to that stuff you speak, Liberals don't run deficits.


Well do they or don't they?

While you applaud McGuinty's judgement in that, so did the Ontario electorate, giving McGuinty's Liberals 2 back to back majorities.
Look I am not pointing fingers, Did McGuinty inherit a bad financial problem? he did!
Did Harper inherit a bad financial problem from the Liberals? No he didn't! Harper inherited $12 Billion surplus, was faced with a down turn of the economy, and because they did not have a good solid fiscal financial plan, they look bad, the polls tell the story. and had Martin still be the financial balancing act, the $100 Billion on top of the Federal dept would have been smaller much smaller may be in the $50 Billion rather then $100b.
So yes he did and the reason is not the Liberals.

 

[CDNBear]

I Love your tree on you avatar.......

Way to answer the question.

And all the tax breaks the good doctor gets... that don't count.... what is that Liberal line oh yes ...I'm entitled to my entitlements...

:lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

LW isn't Ontario’s deficit left behind by the NDP, before McGuinty?
and why did Ontarians gave him two majorities?

In the provincial election of 2003, Dalton McGuinty led the Liberal party to a majority government. He and his party earned a second consecutive majority on October 10, 2007. He has represented the riding oIn the provincial election of 2003, Dalton McGuinty led the Liberal party to a majority government. He and his party earned a second consecutive majority on October 10, 2007. He has represented the riding of Ottawa South as its MPP since 1990.
Office of the Premier, Dalton McGuinty | Home

Quite so. Let us look at the contrast between Harper and Mulroney.

Harper inherited a roaring economy, one that was firing on all cylinders. He immediately set about ruining it, by giving tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich. In this, he was following the example of his buddy and his icon, Bush. With his tax cuts, he wiped away all the surplus in one stroke. Now he was ready to face the Bush meltdown, having squandered away all the surplus.

Now let us look at McGuinty. McGuinty inherited a dire economic situation from Mike Harris, with a deficit of 6 billion $ (which the Tories lied about during the campaign, they heavily cooked the books and claimed that the deficit was 2 billion $).

When McGuinty took office, he realized that he had been duped, that Tories had lied all along and the real deficit was not 2 billion $, but 6 billion $. He immediately set about doing something about it. He promptly broke his promise of not raising taxes and raised taxes to tackle the deficit. Every one started screaming with outrage (Tories of course screaming the loudest); liberals plunged in the opinion polls.

Undeterred, McGuinty stayed on his path, he showed uncommon courage for a politician and balanced the budget in 2 or 3 years. He faced the electorate with balanced budget and voters gave him an increased majority.

Now of course he is running a deficit, same a everybody else. But he has proved that he can balance the budget so he (and Liberals) can do it again. Harper has only shown that he can borrow, spend, cut taxes and rack up huge deficits, but little else.

 

[wulfie68]

So let me get it straight what you are saying here. The deficits incurred by Mulroney were minor, and nothing to worry about (what is 40 billion $ every year between friends, right?). And when Liberals got rid of the deficit and replaced it with healthy surplus, the credit goes to Mulroney. My, but your Mulroney must have been positively economic genius.

No. I did not say they were minor, only that they were a smaller % of GDP than those of Trudeau and Mulroney also had to deal with the economic momentum of them: Mulroney had to deal with more strain on the federal gov't resources (to service more existing debt) than Trudeau did. Of course Mulroney also took steps to try and alleviate the situation which Trudeau did not.

Then are you also saying that when Canadians gave Liberals three majorities in a row, they really were voting Mulroney into office? That they had forgotten all about how lousy he was as the PM and were so taken by him that they gave him three majorities?

Again either your reading comprehension or your deductive reasoning skills are lacking. Chretien won 3 majorities because he was the ONLY leader of a strong national party. The PCs were almost non-existent because of backlash over the GST and (especially in the West) feeling that he hadn't done enough, fast enough to address the debt/deficit (which is ironic in that he did foster the environment to let it be addressed). The Reform wasn't viewed as a national alternative because of Central Canadian paranoia about political movements formed outside Ontario and Quebec, which was constantly encouraged by both the Liberals and the NDP in referring to the Reform and now Conservative "secret agenda" (though how a platform voted on in a public setting and that was subject to floor crossings both ways could remain such a secret is still a mystery to me). You still allude to it in your posts, SirJoe.

Oh, this gets even better. So the astronomical, the biggest ever deficit that Harper is running is actually the fault of Dion and Ignatieff. So Harper is a puppet and Ignatieff is the puppet master, he pulls Harper's strings as he wishes and Harper has no choice in the matter but to do the evil Ignatieff's bidding?

To a large degree that is exactly what has happened and no one who derides the Conservatives wants to admit this. Harper, the politician, will do whatever he has to in order to remain in power, as was true with any PM before him in the past 50 years(with the possible exception of Clark). Iggy/Dion and Layton have the ability to topple the gov't if they decide to do so and do it on an issue that puts Quebec's interests as differing from the country at large (thus mandating the Bloc will oppose the gov't). Thus Harper HAS to accede to the wishes of the other parties at times or frame the debate so that the opposition looks like the bad guy if the issue turns into an election trigger.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I'll simply leave it with this:

You have perfectly illustrated how a typical conservative mind works. Anything good happens, Conservatives get the credit, anything bad happens, Liberals get the blame. And it doesn't matter who is in power, it doesn't even matter who is the PM.

Of course you think this: you have no idea of my voting history or my opinions of the politicians involved, you just fall back on the idea that if one does not worship the shade of Pierre Trudeau and spout his doctrine, they are a Conservative and thus below notice, except to be bled dry to fund the Liberal Party's next grand social spending spree. You have no concept of what most non-partisans think. Sure, I mostly vote Conservative but not exclusively, and because I feel they are the best of the available choices, not out of any party loyalty. I believe in evolving with the times but also in the axiom that if something isn't broke, you don't need to fix it, which is the opposite of the way I viewed most Liberal platforms since I have been paying attention.