HEALTH CARE - User fees

[JLM]

Really? I suggest you put your house in order first, before you try to help others with advice. According to CNN, there will be a shortage of 40,000 to 100,000 Family Physicians in USA in the next few years.

In the long run I'm thinking that might be a good thing- I know if I was looking forward to not having access to a doctor, I'd jump up off the couch and start paying attention to my own medical concerns and may be a little more careful when I'm whittling.

 

[#juan]

Princeton wet?????????????? Not the one between Hope and Penticton. That is sage brush country.

I guess one end of that seventy mile road(the Hope/Princeton) is a lot wetter than the other. It's just that both of the two times we've driven into Princeton, it's been raining just like Hope where it is always raining. I've just looked up the climate in Princeton and it is a lot drier than I thought.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

In the long run I'm thinking that might be a good thing- I know if I was looking forward to not having access to a doctor, I'd jump up off the couch and start paying attention to my own medical concerns and may be a little more careful when I'm whittling.

You and ironsides are arguing from both sides of your mouths, JLM. First ironsides claimed that Canadian system is deficient because we cannot hire qualified doctors and nurses (and gave advice as to how we can fix the problem). Now you claim that if US cannot hire doctors, that is a good thing.

I suggest you two get your story straight. There is noting wrong in having a blind faith in US system (in spite of all the evidence to the contrary). But the two of you arguing from both side of your mouth gives the impression that you will do anything, say anything to justify your health care system (and I regard US health care system as your health care system, since you seem to be so much in love with it).

 

[JLM]

Sure it would be bad. Having the lowest life expectancy in the developed world will be bad. Having one of the highest infant mortality rates in the developed world will be bad. Having tens of thousands of families declare bankruptcy every year; because they cannot afford to pay the health care costs will be bad.

A single mother having to choose between food and health care will be bad. Having more than 15 % Canadians without any health insurance (as is the case in USA) will be bad. If you want US style health care, your best chance is to move to USA (but then as I said before, these who admire US health care system from afar wouldn’t even dream of moving to USA).

Some measure life expectancy in terms of time others in terms of quality.

 

[JLM]

I guess one end of that seventy mile road(the Hope/Princeton) is a lot wetter than the other. It's just that both of the two times we've driven into Princeton, it's been raining just like Hope where it is always raining. I've just looked up the climate in Princeton and it is a lot drier than I thought.

Yep, Sunday Summit (about 20 miles west of Princeton) is pretty much he divide between the wet coastal climate and the dry interior climate. A lot of people don't like Princeton but I think it's a wonderful place, people are friendly and neighbourly, but as I approach my doddering years I'd probably hesitate to live there.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Some measure life expectancy in terms of time others in terms of quality.

So are you claiming that USA has the lowest life expectancy in the developed world, but has the highest quality of life in the developed world? Any evidence for it, or are we expected to accept your opinion as the Gospel truth?

According to UN rankings Canada has a consistently better quality of life than USA. But really, if you have such a high opinion of USA and such a low opinion f Canada, why don’t you move to USA? I would move to USA in a heartbeat, if I had such a high opinion of USA and such a low opinion of Canada. I am not bound by any one country, I live where I like it best (I have lived in USA, UK and Canada).

 

[taxslave]

What a pain that would be for the doctor involved, to be charging and keeping track, they'd probably have to start taking debit and credit cards...

They already do. Since only some services are covered the rest you must pay for with cash.

 

[JLM]

So are you claiming that USA has the lowest life expectancy in the developed world, but has the highest quality of life in the developed world? Any evidence for it, or are we expected to accept your opinion as the Gospel truth?

According to UN rankings Canada has a consistently better quality of life than USA. But really, if you have such a high opinion of USA and such a low opinion f Canada, why don’t you move to USA? I would move to USA in a heartbeat, if I had such a high opinion of USA and such a low opinion of Canada. I am not bound by any one country, I live where I like it best (I have lived in USA, UK and Canada).

Now I'm finally beginning to see why so many of your ideas are so erroneous, you don't read what's in front of you- just jump to conclusions. I don't ever remember stating that U.S. had lowest life expectancy. You also jump to the conclusion that the lower life expectancy (if in fact that isn't bullsh*t too) is attributable to the health care system. That is also bull****. That might be 5% of the reason, but there are literally dozens of other possible reasons for it, such as different safety standards in industry, (and the one you are fond of expounding, their rampant death penalty procedures which probably on it's own shortens the average by at least a month or two), warmer climate, which means susceptability to more disease, more interracial violence. etc.,etc.

 

[taxslave]

I guess that you live in the province of plenty. I was of the opinion that medical expenses were tax deductable in all provinces. I can deduct medical expenses that are in excess of 3% of my earned income. Medical expenses include, health care premiums (when we paid them), extra health care like blue cross, dental expense, travel to doctors offices, eyeglasses and examinations, meals while traveling. I am glad that I live in Alberta as we are allowed to deduct these expenses. Look under the Medical Expenses in your income tax program and if in doubt seek advice with the help key.

I talked to revenue canada about it. Of course since they are government employees it is quite probable that they lied to me.

 

[gerryh]

I see the american wannabe`s and their useless cousins are back to pushing for american style health care in Canada.

 

[L Gilbert]

I gather your doc doesn't pay rent, doesn't have any employees, has no examining tables, no office equipment, nothing.

That's pretty cool.

roflmao
THINK, TP. It's a user fee, not a gross wage. The bulk of the doc's wages comes from gov't, remember?

 

[L Gilbert]

Quite so, 500 dollars a day may barely cover the expenses.

:roll: :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll: Again, it's a user fee, not the gross wage. DUH!

 

[L Gilbert]

Some measure life expectancy in terms of time others in terms of quality.

Yup. I'd sooner live 70 years of a happy life than 170 of a miserable one. Not surprising, Sir Portly would rather live the 170 and thinks everyone else would, too. Frkin funny. lol

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Quoting TenPenny
What a pain that would be for the doctor involved, to be charging and keeping track, they'd probably have to start taking debit and credit cards...

They already do. Since only some services are covered the rest you must pay for with cash.

No they don’t. Only a few services such as sick note are not covered by OHIP. Typically my wife may charge one or two patients a day for such services. And there it is simple. Either you pay cash up front (no credit cards) or you don’t get the sick not or whatever.

There is no problem in recovering the money. it is no different than buying a bag of apples or a loaf of bread.

But user fee for each and every service will be totally different thing. I think doctors would have a big problem refusing service to patients if they cannot pay. It is one thing to deny somebody sick note, something different altogether to withhold treatment from somebody.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don't ever remember stating that U.S. had lowest life expectancy.

You didn’t state it JLM, I did. And it is a fact it is not hard to find, Google for it.

You also jump to the conclusion that the lower life expectancy (if in fact that isn't bullsh*t too) is attributable to the health care system.

I see, so since the statistics does not agree with your preconceived views (that American health care is the greatest in the world, certainly much better than Canadian system since you want to introduce it here in Canada), then the statistics must be bogus.

That is also bull****. That might be 5% of the reason, but there are literally dozens of other possible reasons for it, such as different safety standards in industry, (and the one you are fond of expounding, their rampant death penalty procedures which probably on it's own shortens the average by at least a month or two), warmer climate, which means susceptability to more disease, more interracial violence. etc.,etc.

There may be other reasons for it, I think but health care is the primary reason why life expectancy in USA is so low and why infant mortality is so high.

Then what about the statistics that last year, 70% of bankruptcies in USA were declared due to health care costs? Or you don't believe in that also, does your anecdotal evidence tell you something different?

You seem to have a preconceived notion that because it is American, it must be good. That is why you disregard all the evidence, all the statistics regarding life expectancy, infant mortality, bankruptcies, 40 million uninsured etc.

Which is somewhat surprising. It is usually conservatives who have slavish adoration for anything American (indeed, the far right motto in Canada is American good, Canadian bad). But you claim that you are not a conservative.

 

[Machjo]

With our healthcare system being in a bad state of disarray to the point where people are waiting months for certain procedures and people in some areas are even finding it next to impossible to have their own family doctor, I think something fairly unorhtodox has to be done. I suggest that for each initial visit for an illness (people on social assistance being exempt) that the patient pays a $20 fee up front. What this might do is discourage people with trivial complaints like runny noses and hangnails from running to the doctor and running up costs the rest of us can't afford and adding to line ups in the system delaying sick people getting treatment. It might also stimulate some people to get off their rear end and take care of their own health, like maybe getting a little exercise. What do you think?

I wouldn't exempt people on social assistance. Instead, why not just give them an extra 20$, and they can either use it for food or medical assistance as they prefer. That way they have a better idea of the actual cost of medical care. Then again, even better than giving them the money would be to create some kind of Peace Corps of sorts that would recruit them for public service in exchange for room, board, education, money, etc.but because they'd actually be working, of course we could then give them more help than we do now with the money saved from work that they do for the government that the government had to contract out before?

 

[Machjo]

Another option would be to go towards a more two-tier system. Granted we have a two-tier system already, but leaning much more towards a public one. Sweden has moved closer towards a more balanced two-tier system, as has Singapore, and a few other nations. Why could we not study their various systems and adopt a more balanced two-tier system of our own.

 

[Machjo]

JLM.

Yankee Go Home!

Are you not articulate enough to actually be able to explain your point in a meaningful manner rather than just spew out rhetorical one-liners?

 

[L Gilbert]

Quoting TenPenny
What a pain that would be for the doctor involved, to be charging and keeping track, they'd probably have to start taking debit and credit cards...



No they don’t. Only a few services such as sick note are not covered by OHIP. Typically my wife may charge one or two patients a day for such services. And there it is simple. Either you pay cash up front (no credit cards) or you don’t get the sick not or whatever.

There is no problem in recovering the money. it is no different than buying a bag of apples or a loaf of bread.

But user fee for each and every service will be totally different thing. I think doctors would have a big problem refusing service to patients if they cannot pay. It is one thing to deny somebody sick note, something different altogether to withhold treatment from somebody.

So who said anything about a user fee for each service a doc performs?
A simple user fee for each visit should be enough.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Another option would be to go towards a more two-tier system. Granted we have a two-tier system already, but leaning much more towards a public one. Sweden has moved closer towards a more balanced two-tier system, as has Singapore, and a few other nations. Why could we not study their various systems and adopt a more balanced two-tier system of our own.

I have no problem with a two tier system in theory; many countries do have that and are doing quite well. It depends upon what kind of system, what kind of involvement there will be by private sector etc. But principally I am not opposed to it.

User fees however, are nonsense. The cure here is much worse than the disease. Institute the user fees for a few years and our statistics will begin to resemble American statistics, low life expectancy (on account of people not going for preventive treatment), high infant mortality (on account of women not going for post natal care, saving the 20$), etc.