Fiery Lake for giving the Bible the one finger salute???? Isn't that the same punishment that Satan gets for causing the death of every body including other flesh going back to the moment of creation?
The Miracles of Christ
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Sorry but two points I forgot. Anna, if the story of the flood is true then the one that created it could claim the title God. That is just one example that the OT gives, in each case it is something that man could never accomplish. That is for the things in the past, some things that are described but not fulfilled are no less grand in nature, even more so in some cases. Resurrection of people that have nothing but bone left is a good one to start with. Should somebody come along and demand worship but they can't raise the dead then they are not connected to the God of the Bible. A little digging could come with 20 similar prophecies. Until you see those very things with your own eyes you are not required to acknowledge God. The events are not a form of grandstanding, they are made that grand because nobody could ever do them. Any claim to being God would be quite hollow. The list of accomplishments that still need to be done really would require somebody who can do events like this with ease.
Zec:14:4:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Once you add in the other verses that valley is several miles wide and in that valley a river flows east/west, etc. Until you can see something like that being done (in a few hours) there is no reason to believe in God, or worship anybody at all.
So for all the fairy-tale stories, are they there to suck you into believing something you haven't seen with your own eyes or as an example of what you may see one day with your own eyes? Anything less and God is not involved, some other forces are at work.
Zec:14:4:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Once you add in the other verses that valley is several miles wide and in that valley a river flows east/west, etc. Until you can see something like that being done (in a few hours) there is no reason to believe in God, or worship anybody at all.
So for all the fairy-tale stories, are they there to suck you into believing something you haven't seen with your own eyes or as an example of what you may see one day with your own eyes? Anything less and God is not involved, some other forces are at work.
That's because when I said "it must have been a miracle", I was being sarcastic.
That depends upon whether they have something other than the Bible that backs up their story. Evidence goes a long way.
You can bring up any topic you like, but don't be telling me which ones I have to discuss.
Is that a question? Questions usually have these "?" behind them. I think it's a question, so, I'll answer it: I think it's fine to use the Bible to discuss what's in the Bible, but stating what's in the Bible as if it was fact is just inane.
*shrugs* It's simply ridiculous to think there was 21 feet of water covering all the land regardless of the topography.
If it were me, I'd simply save what I wanted, disintegrate what was left, and then poof another planet. There's no point to messing around seeing who drowns and who doesn't.
There are fish that look like they have horns and as far as I know, most have kinda forked tails if you can imagine crescent shaped being forked. Some can be really nasty, too.
(I refreshed my memory on it).
To me, its a fanciful tale about angels and they are fanciful beings. They are like goblins, gremlins, leprachauns, etc.; good for making stories up about.
I have no idea. But the kids the fallen angels had with women were 300 cubits. lmao
I have a sneaking suspicion that why Enoch is not included in with the rest of the Bible is because it is subversive. As far as just the bit about being fantastic goes, it's no more fanciful or incredible than a lot of the other tales in the Bible.
Nothing in nature could cause it either.
That's rather a moot point as the stuff can't happen anyway. If one can believe the nonsense in the Bible to be true, then why not other books like Tolkien's, Donaldson's, Asimov's, etc.?
Exactly.
I have no idea what the motive was for writing such things.
I guess. I doubt I'll never know anyway, and I don't care if I do or not.
"... nor again could it be right to entrust so great a matter [nature] to spontaneity and chance. When one man said, then, that reason was present -- as in animals, so throughout nature -- as the cause of order and of all arrangement, he seemed like a sober man in contrast with the random talk of his predecessors. We know that Anaxagoras certainly adopted these views, but Hermotimus of Clazomenae is credited with expressing them earlier." -- Aristotle, Metaphysics, Book I, 350 B.C.
a quote by chance has landed here
a quote by chance has landed here
Could it also be 'making up good stories'? The Bible doesn't cover the period between being barred from the Garden and the flood in any great detail. The population was growing because children were being born and marriages were taking place. Using a few parameters about what wickedness and violence take away you might be able to come up with some theoretical numbers for just how much flesh was actually taken away. Extreme violence might mean very few actually died in the flood itself. Factor in the other extreme, violence but very few premature deaths and the numbers would be in the 10's of millions. If the fallen ones had willing followers the world could have been a pretty busy place on a daily basis. The flood not only reduced the numbers of men and other flesh down to a bare minimum it also took away the 'giants' and the 'men of renown'.(I refreshed my memory on it).
To me, its a fanciful tale about angels and they are fanciful beings. They are like goblins, gremlins, leprachauns, etc.; good for making stories up about.
The Book of Enoch was in line to be included in the Bible as define bt Rome in the 4th century. Revelation was the other choice and it was chosen because it death with the future in it's entirety where Enoch was 1 chapter. You can call me on this because I don't have a bookmark for that info currently, I can find it again I think. Anyway Enoch was most likely a often mentioned name back in those early years, as an authority on the past rather than a name to be mocked..
Obviously a rain of 21ft would not be much of a threat to somebody almost 25x that tall. It would be about ankle deep (if allowed to stand, Satan was on his belly), how much would that slow them down in a time of fierce battle when the aggressors are not hampered in any fashion. Being of equal strength the victory would go to the ones who were not disadvantaged. Enoch says the watchers were 3000 ells. If the conversion factor that can be found today is close (1 ell= 45")then they were about 11250' tall, two miles+. That is one form they could take, in fighting the 10,000 saints (Holy Angels) that is the form they would take
Nope, the Church fathers didn't think there was a need for two end-time books.
The flood is not the only instance when the earth is said to do something because God requests it to be done, at a specified time and place so that is affects only specified individuals.
What is your motive for being on this thread? More often than not I think it is a way to find relief from boredom. Perhaps it is a chance to bond with others that share your views.
You must have some sort of curiosity because you visit every Christian thread going.
The flood was just a backdrop for even more important events going on behind the scenes (based on what the Bible says in Jude and Peter, Enoch writings supply details the Bible doesn't).
Sarcasm is often difficult to respond to. Like it or not what we would find impossible is a minor thing to God.
I noticed an underlying theme to the stories of the Bible and that is that an awfully large number of them seem to simply have "God is great" as the basis. "Disobey me and you will be crushed", "Praise me over other gods or I will crush you", "I squished a few million critters into Noah's ark. Aren't I cool?", "I enabled Moses to split an ocean. Don'tcha think I'm awesome?" Well, whoopee dee doo, as Archie Bunker said. The stories aren't believable and are certainly outdone by Disney stories, Grimm's Fairy Tales, etc.
Someone toted up a partial tally as to how many people this god of yours killed in the OT, and the figure was something like 10 million. (Satan killed about 10 people, too, BTW).
Yup, 21 feet of water covering all land masses pretty much means plants and most critters would have died of drowning. How long can an elephant tread water? How long can a moose? How long can strawberry plants? Or are you saying that your god decided to tell people it was going to flood the planet, flooded it, and then saved lots anyway? "Sorry, folks, I was only joking when I said I'd kill everything off".
More like billions of lives.
Is there any reason both wouldn't be included? Other than that a fair whack of people think Enoch was written by some fraudster wanting to fancy things up a bit? Apparently is has quite a few theological blunders, and some people think it wasn't even written by Enoch. Biblical scholars also consider it to be a writing that wasn't "inspired".
*shrugs* There are a lot more interesting tales around than that anyway.
I was wrong. But so are you. I mentioned why a lot of people think it's exclusion to be appropriate in a reply earlier.
Book of Enoch heresy - Google Search
Really? So it's like, "I'll flood Alberta and then Nunavut and then PEI, etc.? roflmao
Bored isn't one of the reasons. Sometimes it's interesting. Sometimes a break from reading. Sometimes I want to express my opinion or read others' opinions and see if I can find flaws. Sometimes ..... I like anthropolgy, psychology, sociology, etc. So religions and their proponents kind of fascinate me sometimes.
Truthfully, I miss some of them because I find them dull.
I bet it does.
If you say so.
lmao So people have been saying.
Actually, I neither like it nor dislike it. Gods are pretty much irrelevant.
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That would make God vain, vanity could not have been a factor for the works that are said to have happened prior to Adam. At the extreme, the home for angelic beings was made prior to the angels. The least in Heaven in said to be greater that the greatest on earth (the Bible gives that title to John the Baptist)). God already was worshiped by them, why would worship from man matter? Our role in the Kingdom of Heaven was being the gardeners in Eden, not exactly front and center to the Throne, more like specks of dust on a set of scales that are blown off before those scales are put to use. This verse is basically saying the things done that result in the salvation of a small group of people can be enlarged to include a greater number of people.
The ones that died in the flood included people, (the only ones that know about good and evil), and clean and unclean beasts. The people can be judged when the seas give up their dead at Judgment Day. Since all other life that died that day cannot enter Heaven they are kept safe (by God and Christ) until the people at Judgment Day are again on the earth. The living water can heal the earth meaning the beasts of the fields that Adam tended to are alive as much as their latest members.
Israel is in line for the first full rewards, it is not because God wants/needs worship. He even has words for them that will make them hang their heads in shame after He has resurrected them from death.
Eze:36:32:
Not for your sakes do I this,
saith the Lord GOD,
be it known unto you:
be ashamed and confounded for your own ways,
O house of Israel.
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine at His mother's request. His last one was the visions that resulted in the Book of Revelation.
I wonder how many law-suits Bug's & Co have racked up over the years lol. You have the coyote painting false tinnels on solid walls in the hope of somebody hitting the wall. Meddling with the highway system would seem to be an act of terror.
Most of your fairy tales have a moral story at their heart. The flood has no moral stoty other than God will only tolerate so much. He allowed things to go on as far as they could. Noah was the last generation no have pure roots back to Adam and Eve. The others died because they carried angelic blood. Doesn't matter if they could have been taught the Gospel, Satan's children have no place on earth. Laws for the Jews mention that the 4th generation is a special maker so that might also apply to the children on angels and mortals. The giants encountered after the exodus would have been within 4 generations of having a human parent.
Could be, is that just the flood or does that include the ones killed in the taking of the promised land. The ones in the sea at Judgment Day have been covered, the ones after exodus haven't been. They were basically killed for two reasons, they were classified as being giants (6 fingers) to they had to become extinct or we would as they were better equipped for war. The 2nd reason is they were an example of the power of God. Human armies were no match. Everybody was killed and only the virgin daughters were taken alive. Fast forward to the time for Israel to become resurrected and those same stolen daughter are given back to their parents because while they remain a member of the 12 tribes their historical family is also resurrected because they come under the heading 'beheaded for the word of God' (Re:20:4 passage). The reward for being used as an example is life restored on an eternal scale. Just as the flood was not the whole story the killing of those people is not the whole story. In order for Jesus to do the things He did (that were called miracles) God had to first show Him how to do it. Christ has a defined list of things He will accomplish when He returns. The destruction of Satan's Babylon is basically the 2nd time the earth has experienced fire from Heaven, Sodom was the first time, Christ would have witnessed that so He would have the authority to do the same thing. One person was resurrected in the OT, same reason, training program for the day of retaking the Earth from Satan.
So without the violence of the past (which is more than made up for to the ones it affected directly) You indignation about those days won't be an issue.
The Bible doesn't mentions Satan's total. It would seem that 1 lie lead to the death of every human end everything they had dominion over. Are you saying Satan is better than God?
If the rain just piled up everybody would be dead by the end of the 40 days, the water seems to have stayed in that position for the remainder of the 5 months. Then God blew and the retreat took place over a period of months. In that much time would have all the dead flesh stopped rotting?
The elephant only has to elevate his trunk, lol BTW that breathing through a straw in the movies doesn't work if the lungs are more than an 1" or 2' under water. Even if you found something to float on the 150 days without food would get you.
He only told Noah, Noah might not even have told his family. Being related to Enoch may or may not have helped Noah's predicament.
God never repents anything He has ever said, may not make for the most pleasant future for some but at least you can believe Him.
Over 2 billion just on the day of His return, that is slightly more than Satan's 4 fallen angels kill in a tad over 3 yrs. Easy to see who is the most violent, that is why His actual return is called great tribulation.
From what I read it was an attempt to 'sum things up'. The book of Jude is devoted to talking about pre-flood times along with Genesis and a bit from Peter. Encoh is not a heretic in either testament.
So, if he wanted people to believe it shouldn't he have made fallen angels a little shorter?
People say the very same things about the Bible. Since when do you care what others say, are you admitting that others set your policy?
The battle with fallen angesls is from the Bible, I already gave you 3 separate references.
None of them are claiming to be real and the flood was not the whole story, as is the case in other examples that can be examined.
So why wouldn't the RCC remove all references rather than leave them in, especially Jude that covers fallen angels and the next book is about fallen angels last attempt before their punishment?
More like the Americas after the rest.
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