The Expanding Earth

MHz

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Mar 16, 2007
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MHz I am not trying to be critical but I tend to find some of your assumptions flawed.
Trying to analyze plate interference and plate stress loading( and thus faulting and folding) simply cannot be done from looking at a few large scale pictures.
If you try to analyze or even understand a very, very small section of regional plate interaction you will need to be capable of understanding and practising structural geology concepts.
And to practice structural geology you need a basic understanding of tectonics, historical geology and the like.
And to really sink your teeth into whats going on under the ground you need to be capable of understanding geophysics and seismic interpretation.
And then you need access to good data.
The two were formed by the same process.
http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/images/lithosphere/tectonics/fault_line_small.jpg
http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/images/mar/diag/map1a.jpg

If you like hi-res pics then this is a good place to find about 20 or so.
NOAA/NESDIS/NGDC/MGGD-Marine Geology and Geophysics Data Home

Those large scale pictures should enhance the current view of how the surface of the earth works. In the case of the age of the sea-floor the commonly held belief is that the American Cordillera was uplifted via the subduction/over-riding of the Pacific
Plate. The rate the Atlantic Rift is pushing the Americas is slower than the floor of the Pacific Plate is moving. The volcanic hot-spots (like the Hawaiian chain) can determine how fast that movement is. Since the rate given below is faster than the Atlantic is spreading the Pacific must be spreading also. The start of that spreading millions of years ago was also the creation of the America Cordillera.
"The Hawaiian Islands are the exposed summits of the southernmost seafloor mountains, or seamounts, in the Hawaiian-Emperor seamount chain. This 3,105 mi (5,750 km) line of 107 volcanoes has formed over the last 70 million years as the Pacific Lithospheric Plate has moved to the northwest over a stationary magmatic hot spot in the mantle."

http://www.enotes.com/earth-science/hawaiian-island-formation
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
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Hither and yon

The two were formed by the same process.
http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/images/lithosphere/tectonics/fault_line_small.jpg
http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/images/mar/diag/map1a.jpg

If you like hi-res pics then this is a good place to find about 20 or so.
NOAA/NESDIS/NGDC/MGGD-Marine Geology and Geophysics Data Home

Those large scale pictures should enhance the current view of how the surface of the earth works. In the case of the age of the sea-floor the commonly held belief is that the American Cordillera was uplifted via the subduction/over-riding of the Pacific
Plate. The rate the Atlantic Rift is pushing the Americas is slower than the floor of the Pacific Plate is moving. The volcanic hot-spots (like the Hawaiian chain) can determine how fast that movement is. Since the rate given below is faster than the Atlantic is spreading the Pacific must be spreading also. The start of that spreading millions of years ago was also the creation of the America Cordillera.
"The Hawaiian Islands are the exposed summits of the southernmost seafloor mountains, or seamounts, in the Hawaiian-Emperor seamount chain. This 3,105 mi (5,750 km) line of 107 volcanoes has formed over the last 70 million years as the Pacific Lithospheric Plate has moved to the northwest over a stationary magmatic hot spot in the mantle."

Hawaiian Island Formation: World of Earth Science


I don't think you are following my drift here MHz.

Looking at large scale pictures of the ground and believing you are capable of understanding the regional and historical geology is like looking at a photograph of a high rise and believing you are capable of being a structural engineer or an architect.
It bears no relationship to reality.

As to pictures the only use I have had for them in a geological perspective is to do a little photogeology (stereo interpretation) and surface isopach work.

To repeat myself, if you are not capable of understanding the faulting and folding forces at play and working that through from a structural geology perspective you have no idea what is going on tectonically.
That would mean mapping and understanding all the strikes and dips for all the associated fault plane/blocks in a given location in order to understand movements and forces at play.

Looking at pretty pictures will never provide that level of information or understanding.
And neither will random internet postings and quotes.

Anyone who is interested, the library is your friend.

Trex
 

Dexter Sinister

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Electric currents across cosmic distances have the power to shape cosmic structure, and at the local scale, to light the sun...
Check the original sources instead of those crackpot web sites you're so fond of. Alfvén knew the stars are powered by nuclear fusion, I have a little book of his called Worlds-Antiworlds (published in 1966) in which he says so. He also discusses plasmas and their behaviour at some length in it, and using his work in support of the electric universe you're promoting is the kind of complete misrepresentation of legitimate science so typical of pseudoscience. He would not have agreed with you.
 

MHz

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I don't think you are following my drift here MHz.
Good one, I like I sense of humor in a world that takes putting a solid object into a substance that is 2X as dense and expect there to be little sign of it being much of a struggle. If the Canadian Shield has been 'adrift for some 2 billion years' when/where is it going to be subducted?
Back where I said southern Greenland was a bit deeper in molten rock, the same can be said for BC. The plate was fractured and a few miles of crust was uplifted the whole length of the Americas. In Canada the greatest rise was also where the plate had some upligting from previous 'upheavals' (making it more than two miles). From that uplifting (BC AB border) the pressure wave traveled further west and it broke the crust at the point marks the shoreline of the Americas as they look today, the mantle escaped in that direction ever since, that fracture. That was enough to take the pressure off the uplifting of BC. so the Rockies stopped rising and coastal BC, which was lifted even higher than the Alberta Rockies sunk back into the magma a little more,

Looking at large scale pictures of the ground and believing you are capable of understanding the regional and historical geology is like looking at a photograph of a high rise and believing you are capable of being a structural engineer or an architect.
It bears no relationship to reality.
All those picture show is direction of travel based on the 'scientifically proven method of dating rocks'. Ask anybody who has any stretch-marks in any part of their skin if it looks like an aerial view of a 'giant' rift. on the crust of the earth. Good thing observation has been tossed out/through the window.

As to pictures the only use I have had for them in a geological perspective is to do a little photogeology (stereo interpretation) and surface isopach work.
What I need is the personal ability to run the program so I can lower sea-levels some 100m to determine the change in land masses and if the oceans could still develop hurricanes that would be stronger or more in number than they are today.

To repeat myself, if you are not capable of understanding the faulting and folding forces at play and working that through from a structural geology perspective you have no idea what is going on tectonically.
Other than that .... what's the problem..?

That would mean mapping and understanding all the strikes and dips for all the associated fault plane/blocks in a given location in order to understand movements and forces at play.
Assuming you can access the same data Google Earth 5 then the line of mountains that Hawaii is from goes in a northwesterly direction a few 1,000km's and then takes a sudden tirn to an almost due north heading. Based just on that picture we know how long it took to wing back the clock to date most parts of that change. To make that sudden change in direction did the 'hot-spot' move or did some other forces act that could alter the direction the spreading took.

Looking at pretty pictures will never provide that level of information or understanding.
And neither will random internet postings and quotes.
Save some ink and just say 'later, that's all I have. lol

Anyone who is interested, the library is your friend.
Trex
That would be digital library right?

later.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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:lol:
Check the original sources instead of those crackpot web sites you're so fond of. Alfvén knew the stars are powered by nuclear fusion, I have a little book of his called Worlds-Antiworlds (published in 1966) in which he says so. He also discusses plasmas and their behaviour at some length in it, and using his work in support of the electric universe you're promoting is the kind of complete misrepresentation of legitimate science so typical of pseudoscience. He would not have agreed with you.


He changed his mind Dexter and he changed it like a real scientist, because the observable physical world we call reality compelled him to do so. You could use his example to good effect to get yourself out of the Big Bang priesthood. It's a pleasure proving you wrong , as usual no numbers were abused during the operation no models were glued together and I didn't get on my knees in front of Einstiens photo. There is not one molecule of evidence anywhere in the universe to support nuclear suns, none. PS you wouldn't know a crackpot if one fell on you:lol:



In 1970, Hannes Alfvén, the 'father of plasma physics,' warned that cosmology was headed into crisis. He was referring to the treatment of plasma—which makes up about 99.9% of the visible universe—as a magnetizable gas. Alfvén was responsible for the theory, known as 'magnetohydrodynamics' or MHD. But he publicly repudiated its use for space plasma in his 1970 Nobel Prize acceptance speech:

"The cosmical plasma physics of today is far less advanced than the thermonuclear research physics. It is to some extent the playground of theoreticians who have never seen a plasma in a laboratory. Many of them still believe in formulae which we know from laboratory experiments to be wrong. The astrophysical correspondence to the thermonuclear crisis has not yet come."
—H. Alfvén, Plasma physics, space research and the origin of the solar system, Nobel Lecture, December 11, 1970

But astrophysicists didn't want to know. MHD made their theoretical work easy compared with the intricate behavior of plasma discovered in attempts to harness fusion power—the so-called 'power source of the Sun.' Their ignorance of the real behavior of plasma was certain to lead to divergence between theory and reality, just as it did for fusion power.

In fact each specialist group fuelled the mistakes of the other. It is a common situation in institutionalized science today. The astrophysicists misled the nuclear physicists into thinking the Sun is powered internally, which led nuclear physicists to try unsuccessfully to mimic the Sun's hypothetical thermonuclear 'engine.' The nuclear physicists have nevertheless misled the astrophysicists into thinking that a stable thermonuclear reaction is possible inside the Sun even though it results in a weird body that transfers internal heat unlike any other—by radiation instead of conduction and convection. And the Sun is a cosmic body that is assumed to have much the same composition at its center as at the top of its atmosphere! Clearly, it has been a theoretical 'deadly embrace.'

Alfvén was considered a brilliant maverick. He
The Astrophysical Crisis at Red Square
 
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#juan

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Thermonuclear Fusion in the Sun and other Stars

The sun radiates energy at the rate of 3.9 X 1026 W (watts) and has been doing so for several billion years. The sun burns hydrogen in a "nuclear furnace." The fusion reaction in the sun is a multistep process in which hydrogen is burned into helium, hydrogen being the "fuel" and helium the "ashes." The figure below shows the cycle.

Fusion cycle of the Sun
The cycle starts with the thermal collision of two protons (1H + 1H) to form a deuteron (2H), with the simultaneous creation of a positron (e+) and a neutrino (v). The positron very quickly encounters a free electron (e-) in the sun and both particles annihilate, their mass energy appearing as two gamma-ray photons. Once the deuteron has been produced, it quickly collides with another proton and forms a 3He nucleus and a gamma ray. Two such 3He nuclei may eventually (within ten thousand years) find each other, as the bottom row shows.
Overall, this amounts to the combination of four protons and two electrons to form an alpha particle (4He), two neutrinos, and six gamma rays. Thus, the overall equation is
.

The energy release in this reaction is

where 1.007825u is the mass of a hydrogen atom and 4.002603u is the mass of a helium atom; neutrinos and gamma-ray photons have no mass and thus do not enter into the calculation of disintegration energy.


One question could be: Without fusion, where do all those neutrinos that the sun emits come from?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Where do I find the billions of t of silicate spicules and lechatelierite that should line the canyon??

I have read of iron spicules associated with arc events and talk of sheets of folded silica also but I haven't found the above mentioned things, yet. The term "mass wasting" for Valles Marineris is a euphemism for the disappearance of millions of cubic kilometres of rock and soil. The two mechanisms proposed for the formation of Valles Marineris are underground water erosion or massive surface rifting. Neither stand up to scrutiny. There is no mechanism available to geologists to cause mass wasting, particularly on such a gargantuan scale. The minor features are merely explained in an ad hoc fashion. The electrical model now has a coherent explanation for the broadest features of five major and distinct landforms associated with Valles Marineris. The five features are: 1. the Valles Marineris canyons; 2. Noctis Labyrinthus; 3. Claritas Fossae; 4. the eastern chaos region; 5. the great eastern valley systems. The missing mass (shades of the purely gravitational thinking of astronomers) was not transported or buried on Mars. It was lofted toward space by blast and electrical forces. The same kind of process operates far more quietly today on Io, lofting matter hundreds of kilometres into space. The fact that we receive martian meteorites today is solid evidence of the removal of rocks from the surface of Mars in the recent past. The electrical model also explains the detailed features. The small ripples on the canyon floor are not sand dunes but a solid reminder of the path of the arc that blasted the canyon. They are massive "fulgurites" - the glassified sand formed by underground lightning. They are transverse to the arc because they record the corona discharge filaments associated with lightning. The same effect seems to have solidified the soil along the ridge crests into "Lichtenberg figures," which is another characteristic pattern created by lightning. Ridge crests and canyon edges would be the focus of secondary discharges. The raked appearance of the slopes are probably the result of surface lightning feeding the ridge crests with electrons to satisfy the discharges there. We find such patterns of grooves on objects as diverse as asteroids, moons and planets. PS I can't add a live link for some reason Petros. Spiral Galaxies & Grand Canyons
 

Dexter Sinister

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He changed his mind...
Did he really? I can find no indication of that anywhere in any of the references I have at home or anywhere on the web except at those crackpot sites you're fond of citing. Knowing how much else they've got wrong, I'm not inclined to believe them or you. Nice of you not to abuse any numbers in the course of your argument, but you really should understand that you can't do physics with prose. The electric cosmos is a silly distortion of Alfvén's work in plasma cosmology, and treats many of his speculations as if they were proven physics, which they are not. Satellites find no sign of the currents you claim pervade space, they detect instead the black body nature of the cosmic background radiation, directly contradictory to the electric cosmos model. That model creates more problems than it solves.
 

MHz

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wow, a physics professor that uses ordinary English:

Mundy, B. --- Expanding Earth?
Certainly isn't hard to understand these words.

"Another difficulty is that both the African and the Antarctic tectonic plates are almost completely surrounded by spreading ridges with no significant subduction zones on their boundaries (Bevis and Payne 1983; Carey 1976, p. 57; Carey 1983c; Carey 1988, pp. 174-176; Karig 1978). Consequently, the subduction zones available to accommodate the spreading are not near by; and these expansion ridges themselves would have to migrate toward distant subduction zones. In fact, models of relative plate motions have not been unambiguously established yet, particularly for the circum-Pacific (Kamp and Fitzgerald 1987)."
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Certainly isn't hard to understand these words.

"Another difficulty is that both the African and the Antarctic tectonic plates are almost completely surrounded by spreading ridges with no significant subduction zones on their boundaries (Bevis and Payne 1983; Carey 1976, p. 57; Carey 1983c; Carey 1988, pp. 174-176; Karig 1978). Consequently, the subduction zones available to accommodate the spreading are not near by; and these expansion ridges themselves would have to migrate toward distant subduction zones. In fact, models of relative plate motions have not been unambiguously established yet, particularly for the circum-Pacific (Kamp and Fitzgerald 1987)."
Yeah, any theory I know of has issues that haven't been explained yet. That does not in any way prove that alternate theories are true, though. It just means that the theory has holes. For instance, the theory of evolution cannot explain all of evolution yet, but that does not mean creationism is true.
And so far I've also seen holes in expanding earth theory, too. So does that prove tectonics is true? No.
 

AnnaG

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"And so far I've also seen holes in expanding earth theory, too. So does that prove tectonics is true? No."

I meant "So does that prove tectonics isn't true? No."
 

Dexter Sinister

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The term "mass wasting" for Valles Marineris is a euphemism for the disappearance of millions of cubic kilometres of rock and soil. ...There is no mechanism available to geologists to cause mass wasting...,
No, mass wasting is the geological term for the down slope creep of unconsolidated material. The main mechanism of mass wasting is gravity. There is gravity on Mars. There is also evidence of rifting. There are photos here that show both mass wasting and possible rifting on Mars:
Valles Marineris: Welcome

The same effect seems to have solidified the soil along the ridge crests into "Lichtenberg figures," which is another characteristic pattern created by lightning.
Not on that scale. This is just another instance of the pseudoscientists' "If it looks like X it must be X" argument, the same one you've advanced to explain the Grand Canyon. Dendritic drainage patterns also look like Lichtenberg figures, but they're not. That argument's about as good as "Frank looks like Tom, so Frank must be Tom."
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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Dec 09, 2009 Joining the Dots Part Two: The Dating Scene in the Sky
Dec 08, 2009 Joining the Dots Part One: Fireworks on New Year's Day
Dec 07, 2009 Solar Breeze



An electromagnetic theory of the great conjunction cannot only shed light on the traditional link with a world-devouring fire, but actually predicts subtle shifts in planetary orbits as well. In his proposed model of Electrically Modified Newtonian Dynamics (EMOND), electrical theorist Wallace Thornhill has recently argued that, when an electric charge exchange transpires between adjacent planets, orbital adjustment and stabilisation are the inevitable consequences: “If the mass of an inner planet is reduced by charge exchange with the next outer planet, … the orbital radius of the inner planet must decrease proportionally to conserve energy. Similarly, the outer planet must gain mass and its orbit expands to conserve energy.”
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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Did he really? I can find no indication of that anywhere in any of the references I have at home or anywhere on the web except at those crackpot sites you're fond of citing. Knowing how much else they've got wrong, I'm not inclined to believe them or you. Nice of you not to abuse any numbers in the course of your argument, but you really should understand that you can't do physics with prose. The electric cosmos is a silly distortion of Alfvén's work in plasma cosmology, and treats many of his speculations as if they were proven physics, which they are not. Satellites find no sign of the currents you claim pervade space, they detect instead the black body nature of the cosmic background radiation, directly contradictory to the electric cosmos model. That model creates more problems than it solves.


Cosmology in Crisis—Again!
Richard Feynman, lecturing his students on how to look for a new law in physics, said, “First you guess. Don't laugh; this is the most important step. Then you compute the consequences. Compare the consequences to experience. If it disagrees with experience, the guess is wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn't matter how beautiful your guess is or how smart you are or what your name is. If it disagrees with experience, it's wrong. That's all there is to it.”

Sounds simple? Perhaps that is why we see so many proposals for new laws of physics in the mad scramble for a Nobel Prize. But the emphasis is all wrong. It encourages wild guesswork and burgeoning complexity. Complexity facilitates endless “twiddling of knobs” to match new “experience.” Theories become practically unfalsifiable and unscientific—as witness, “string theory.” Underlying the guesswork in cosmology is the paradigm of the big bang. A paradigm is a system of belief that tends to be taken completely for granted. The guesswork is limited to modifications that don’t disturb the conviction. Questioning the established paradigm is resisted. The case of “the modern Galileo,” Halton Arp, is a classic example where the big bang “disagrees with experience” —and the experience is declared to be wrong. Feynman could usefully have added that it doesn’t matter how many people believe a theory, “If it disagrees with experience, it's wrong. That's all there is to it.”

Cosmology is in crisis because from the very outset the “big bang” was not science! The big bang invokes a miraculous creation of the universe from nothing. It is a misguided attempt to manufacture a creation story to complement, or compete with, the biblical Genesis story. But real science doesn’t do miracles. There was no contest anyway. The biblical creation story, like those of all other ancient cultures on Earth, has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. To believe so is to misunderstand the ancient meanings of “heaven” and “earth.”
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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Yeah sure, your math heros get black holes and big bangs and invisable mass mine get volts watts and amps we can boil water for coffee you lot can't even find the outlet. Did you ever see gravity fry an egg, no I didn't think so.
So there is absolutely nothing wrong with plasma physics or its math.
 

Dexter Sinister

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So there is absolutely nothing wrong with plasma physics or its math.
Try to keep your pseudosciences straight. Plasma physics is real science, the electric cosmos model is pseudoscience. They are not remotely the same thing, but you electric cosmos guys conflate them as if they were. The only person I've seen even attempt any real physics in the electric cosmos model is Donald Scott, and he gets a lot of fairly elementary things wrong.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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Oil Is MasteryFriday, December 11, 2009

Scientists Admit the Earth Grows



"The near-Earth plasma sheet is thought to thin during the growth phase and then rapidly expand after the onset of the substorm." -- J.P. Dewhurst, astrophysicst, et al., 2004

Science Daily: Earth's Atmosphere Came from Outer Space, Scientists Find.

ScienceDaily (Dec. 11, 2009) — The gases which formed the Earth's atmosphere -- and probably its oceans -- did not come from inside the Earth but from outer space, according to a study by University of Manchester and University of Houston scientists.

The report published in the journal Science means that textbook images of ancient Earth with huge volcanoes spewing gas into the atmosphere will have to be rethought.
According to the team, the age-old view that volcanoes were the source of the Earth's earliest atmosphere must be put to rest.​
How can the Earth gain matter from outerspace without growing? I guess the particles have negative mass.
Posted by OilIsMastery
Labels: Expanding Earth, Growing Earth