The Atheist Holy War

[Niflmir]

Ah, but we're not talking about religious belief. We're talking about religion. Language is such a fun thing isn't it? The two are not interchangeable. Les brought up religion, not religious belief. And if you look at the dictionary definition (dictionary.com), this is part of the definition... " a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, " it carries on to say 'especially' as it applies to religious belief, but, it does not say exclusively as it applies to religious belief.

As for the rest of your post Niflmir... not all religious are alike, not all atheists are alike. That's a bit of a no brainer. But you don't sign off your posts about atheism being a non-specific belief, with an invitation for me to join your atheist organization with its set mandate of how you all view the world. :lol:

But certainly you must see how that definition is incomplete. Physics is not a religion, but it certainly defines a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and... ok not the purpose of the universe. And I think that is the point. Maybe the definition is fine after all.

What lacks in atheism is purpose. We do not presuppose it. An atheist does not believe that there is necessarily a purpose to the universe. One can say that buddhists are atheist because they believe in no god, but they are certainly religious.

This is one of the various arguments that the religious have against the atheists: life without meaning. In some sense that is the very definition of atheism, the disbelief of god given purpose in the universe. Instead we must find our purpose in a celebration of life. In choosing some principle to lead our life by. In trying very hard to better those people around us. But it is not something one can believe to be inherent to the universe.

 

[ironsides]

I want to be the PR guy. I convinced most people in Nakusp that they were crazy to get rid of the stigma around mental health issues, now just about everybody supports mental illness. I could do the same for atheism. I could convince the religious that they don't need god to reach enlightenment (a lightening of the wallet).

The stock exchange is rising, the banks are showing record profits - SEND MONEY!

You want to be Puerto Rican?
:roll:
geez, make up your mind.:lol:

 

[talloola]

the religious have against the atheists: life without meaning.

Life without 'their' meaning, as they believe their meaning is the only one.
Life for me has great meaning, but doesn't enter into their thought process
at all.
They say that, just to make us feel like 'nothing', sorry, doesn't work.

 

[ironsides]

Here is a article I came across, it does ask some very good questions. There are comments at the end.

"Science is Not Superior to Religion"
by Kenny Felder
​

"I've been getting into this argument a lot lately. My opponent is sometimes old and sometimes young, sometimes white and sometimes black, pretty much always male. He has no "faith" or belief in the Bible and its God. He loves math and science. He is smug and intellectually arrogant. In all those ways, he is exactly like me.
He also believes that modern science makes religion obsolete. Primitive men invented religion to explain, for instance, why the sun goes around the sky. The people who still cling to those old stories are just not smart enough for the complexity of science's explanations, or not tough-minded enough to accept the finality of death. This essay is an all-out attack on that point of view, just to get it off my chest."

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/essays/scientism.html
​

 

[Niflmir]

Life without 'their' meaning, as they believe their meaning is the only one.
Life for me has great meaning, but doesn't enter into their thought process
at all.
They say that, just to make us feel like 'nothing', sorry, doesn't work.[/quote]

Well sure, life has meaning. But probably you agree that the meaning I give life is different than your meaning? It has nothing to do with our beliefs as atheist.

 

[Cliffy]

Oh... and for spade and cliffy... if you'd like to donate to the cause...
The Brights' Net - Supporting the Brights

it's okay, because it's not a religion. ;-)

You missed the point. We want to start our own non-religion to keep the prophets, not send money! what kinda capitalist are you?:lol:

 

[Cliffy]

Well sure, life has meaning. But probably you agree that the meaning I give life is different than your meaning? It has nothing to do with our beliefs as atheist.

Well, that is misleading. There are no atheist beliefs. Atheists do, however, have beliefs about life. I hope that clears that up for those with religious beliefs. I myself are neither/nor but I call myself a spiritual anarchist. I have a following of one, me. And my idea of spiritual is that I understand what we call reality to be a hologram based on false beliefs.Thus, since we are not really physical but only believe we are physical, we are therefore spirits by definition.

I only say that to clarify my position and not to convince anybody that I know what I am talking about. No followers please. Those knocking on my door seeking a guru will be dispatched to the great beyond.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And no... you can show me a couple ways it's not directly like religion... I'll grant you that. But it's not directly opposite either, as much as you might wish it were.

Karrie, ‘a couple ways’? Atheism is totally different from a religion, and in several aspects, not just ‘a couple ways’.

A proper religion has a Messiah, a Holy Book, a set of Commandments, beliefs, creed, a huge big list of dos and don’ts (don’t eat beef, don’t eat pork, kill a witch, stone a woman to death etc.), promise of eternal rewards for believers, threat of eternal damnation, eternal torture for non believers.

All the major world religions (including Communism and Nazism) fall into this pattern. Atheism does not have even a single of these features. To claim that Atheism is religion is just an attempt to drag Atheism down to the level of religion, nothing more.

Claiming that Atheism is religion is as absurd as claiming that Creationism or Intelligent Design is a scientific theory (or that flat earth is a scientific theory).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Well sure, life has meaning. But probably you agree that the meaning I give life is different than your meaning? It has nothing to do with our beliefs as atheist.

Niflmir, I put it slightly differently. In my opinion, life has no meaning; it is like an empty bottle. It is up to us to fill that bottle, to give life any meaning that we want.

Thus many ordinary people feel that the meaning of life is to get married, have children and bring them up properly. When the kids are grown up and are doing well, they feel that they have accomplished the purpose of life.

On the other hand, a prolife or a Muslim terrorist sees it differently. To him life is about doing the greatest possible harm to the cause he despises (abortion to prolifer, anybody who disagrees with him to the Muslim terrorist). To them, meaning of life is to kill your opponent, be it abortion providing doctor (like Dr. Tiller, the most recent victim of prolife terrorism), or innocent people in World Trade Centre or Afghanistan etc. When he has done that, he feels that he has fulfilled the purpose of his life and he is ready to die.

So I think life as such has no meaning, it is up to us to give it whatever meaning we choose.

 

[ironsides]

You mean the meaning of life is not 42?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

No, it's the answer to the key question about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, but they never figured out what the question was.

 

[talloola]

Life without 'their' meaning, as they believe their meaning is the only one.
Life for me has great meaning, but doesn't enter into their thought process
at all.
They say that, just to make us feel like 'nothing', sorry, doesn't work.

Well sure, life has meaning. But probably you agree that the meaning I give life is different than your meaning? It has nothing to do with our beliefs as atheist.[/quote]

yep

 

[karrie]

But certainly you must see how that definition is incomplete. Physics is not a religion, but it certainly defines a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and... ok not the purpose of the universe. And I think that is the point. Maybe the definition is fine after all.

What lacks in atheism is purpose. We do not presuppose it. An atheist does not believe that there is necessarily a purpose to the universe. One can say that buddhists are atheist because they believe in no god, but they are certainly religious.

This is one of the various arguments that the religious have against the atheists: life without meaning. In some sense that is the very definition of atheism, the disbelief of god given purpose in the universe. Instead we must find our purpose in a celebration of life. In choosing some principle to lead our life by. In trying very hard to better those people around us. But it is not something one can believe to be inherent to the universe.

'the religious' Niflmir? I'm sorry, but this whole time you're arguing about how atheists are independent of one another, and you can't define atheism according to the way some act, and then you state one of the arguments 'the religious' have against atheists? LOL!! Come on now. I could care less if people see life and the universe as existing without purpose.

Deism in some views can be said to argue the same point... the universe started by some outside force but not guided day to day by one, not necessarily leading to some grand culmination... just there.

 

[karrie]

Life without 'their' meaning, as they believe their meaning is the only one.
Life for me has great meaning, but doesn't enter into their thought process
at all.
They say that, just to make us feel like 'nothing', sorry, doesn't work.

It's sad that you generalize so heavily when you talk of people of belief.

 

[karrie]

Well sure, life has meaning. But probably you agree that the meaning I give life is different than your meaning? It has nothing to do with our beliefs as atheist.

Ah, and here, see, is part of my annoyance....

what's the theist/deist meaning of life? No... not the Christian meaning of life, or the Buddhist meaning of life, or the Muslim meaning of life... those are simply subsects of theism. What's the theist/deist meaning of life?

People mix and muddle the terms so badly when trying to discuss these issues that it almost becomes pointless to try to discuss it. lol. (edited to add... I'm not innocent of it either!)

 

[karrie]

You missed the point. We want to start our own non-religion to keep the prophets, not send money! what kinda capitalist are you?:lol:

well... there's your template Cliffy... run with it man!! It will be like the way most modern businesses tried to model themselves after Wal-Mart.

 

[talloola]

It's sad that you generalize so heavily when you talk of people of belief.

When a believer makes a statement that, the life of an atheist has 'no meaning',
and, I have had that said of me in the past,
it is a personal criticizm and deserves an answer, my answer defended my position, and called the believer on 'their' critical statement, not a generality.
Because the meaning of my life is not the same as theirs, does not mean that
my life has 'no' meaning, it isn't the same meaning as theirs, and I said that,
and their criticizm is a 'hurtful' one, because it would be sad and lonely to
feel that one's life had 'no' meaning, and that is what they said, so, they
are purposly trying to make an atheist feel like 'nothing'.
I did not say 'their life has 'no' meaning' because they are believers, I don't
care what they believe, that is their business.

 

[karrie]

While I know what you mean talloola, that's individuals saying it. That's individuals being ignorant, and yet when you talk (or the way I read it), it comes off like you're saying 'all the religious'. Which gets my back up.

I've read people on this forum, SirJosephPorter comes directly to mind, who talk the same way of people of faith and belief. They are people he sees as having no worth. People he thinks deserve his consistent disrespect and scorn. Thinking people who view the world as different from you are contemptible is, well, contemptible, no matter which side of the line you stand on.

I'm glad you stand up and say what you are worth talloola. And I hope you don't think all 'the religious' see atheists that way.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You missed the point. We want to start our own non-religion to keep the prophets, not send money! what kinda capitalist are you?:lol:

What do you mean Cliffy, not send money? I want to start an ‘Atheistic church’, get tax exempt status, buy some cheap cable time and ask people to send the biggest possible check for my cause.

 

[damngrumpy]

As soon as religion can't explain something they immediately start with the mysteries of the Lord. If God made it mysterious then it can't be explained.
What crap. Is there a God? Well I can't say there is or there isn't. Science would
likely say no, but they can't prove their position either. What I don't like is the
religious crowd trying to and in many cases, dictating the social agenda in our
democracy. Religion has no place in politics.