Israel practicing apartheid and colonialism

[earth_as_one]

Palestinians elected Hamas.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Q&A: Hamas election victory
That gives them legitimacy to represent the Palestinian people, whether we like them or not.

Palestine's official status is an occupied state. Technically Palestinians are at war with the occupying nation (Israel). According to international laws governing war, Palestinians have the right to resist their occupation, even by violent means. In other words, Palestinian militants have a legal right to attack Israeli soldiers in Gaza and in Israel. Israeli soldiers also have a legal right to defend themselves even by violent means and enter Gaza to fight Palestinian militants. Israel also has a legal right to block arms from entering Gaza.

But Israel has no right to block food, medicine and other humanitarian essentials from entering Gaza. Nor does Israel have the right to attack Gaza civilians or destroy their livelihood by blocking the free flow of civilian goods and services. As a direct consequence of these illegal Israeli actions, 1.5 million people suffer extreme poverty, disease and malnitrition. That part of Israel's blockade is a form of collective punishment and a crime against humanity.

Israel and Hamas agreed to a truce in June 2008. According to the agreed terms, Hamas would stop launching rockets and mortars at Israel, and Israel would allow food, medicine and other necessities into Gaza. Hamas held up its end of the bargain. They stopped attacking Israel and arrested anyone that did:
Hamas arrests militants after rocket fire | Reuters

The trend during the 2008 truce was fewer and fewer attacks. In May 2008, Palestinian militants fired 206 rockets and 149 mortars at Israel. In October 2008, militants fired 1 rocket and 1 mortar.

In response to reduced attacks Israel continued its humanitarian and economic blockade in violation of the terms of the truce. As the number of attacks decreased, Israel counter-intuitively reduced the amount of aid entering Gaza.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Guide: Gaza under blockade

If Israel was truly interested in peace, they would have rewarded Hamas's efforts to stop all rocket and mortar attacks. As the number of attacks decreased, the amount of aid entering Gaza should have increased as per their truce agreement. At no time during the truce did Israel ever hold up their end of the agreement and appeared to punish Gazans for reducing their attacks to almost none.

On November 4, 2008, Israel blatantly and violently broke their truce agreement with Hamas by sending commandos into Gaza and killing Hamas operatives digging a hole.
Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk

Digging a hole isn't a hostile act until that hole crosses the border into Israel. Israel has never offered any proof that the hole served any offensive purpose. Hamas claims it was a defensive fortification. The truce never required Hamas to stop building defensive fortications, training their members or acquiring arms. Hamas only agreed to stop attacking Israel.

During Operation Cast Lead, Israel committed a series of war crimes and crimes against humanity, including using chemical weapons against civilians, using civilians including children as human shields, deliberately attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure...

You can read about it here in the Amnesty International report:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...a74-4853-860f-0563725e633a/mde150152009en.pdf

From the report:

...Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were
destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered
the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this
method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off
remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank
and at times also in Gaza.
The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk
between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses
along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no
Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there
were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the
houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being
shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the
mines inside the houses....

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...a74-4853-860f-0563725e633a/mde150152009en.pdf

Deliberately destroying civilian infrastructure including Gaza's ability to produce food is a war crime. Since Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces regularly attack Gaza farmers attempting to work their land and destroy their crops.
ei: Israel destroying Gaza's farmlands

As a result, Gazans are less able to produce food and their need for humanitarian aid has increased. Meanwhile Israel maintains their illegal humanitarian aid blockade.

My point in posting the above isn't to support one side or the other, but accurately post facts to counter the misinformation by Israel's supporters on this forum as well as the inaccurate, misleading and selective truth propaganda rampant in our news media regarding this conflict.

I don't support violence or violent organizations. I support peaceful non-violent resistance in response to violence, injustice and oppression. I also support people knowing all the facts as objectively reported by human rights organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'tselem...

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories | Amnesty International Report 2009

Israel and the Occupied Territories | Human Rights Watch

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

 

[ironsides]

Germany elected Hitler, but that did not mean we (the world) should have stood by like we did. You see danger you put a stop to it in advance hopefully, simple answer. The last paragraph of your Reuters article says it all.

"The Egyptian-brokered truce, which took effect June 19, has been shaken by several rocket attacks, prompting Israel to temporarily close the Gaza Strip's border crossings."

Those rocket attacks effectively ended the truce. There was to be no rocket attacks, nice that Hamas arrested the two who launched the rockets. It was to late, the rockets were launched.

 

[darkbeaver]

Germany elected Hitler, but that did not mean we (the world) should have stood by like we did. You see danger you put a stop to it in advance hopefully, simple answer. The last paragraph of your Reuters article says it all.

"The Egyptian-brokered truce, which took effect June 19, has been shaken by several rocket attacks, prompting Israel to temporarily close the Gaza Strip's border crossings."

Those rocket attacks effectively ended the truce. There was to be no rocket attacks, nice that Hamas arrested the two who launched the rockets. It was to late, the rockets were launched.

The world sees a problem with Netanyahoo and Israel somebody will put a stop to it, you can count on it. In the end Palestine will be pure just like Israel wants, pure Palestinian.

 

[gopher]

Israel doesn't listen to the USA's advice everytime though. Their not completely desperate for American support. Israel can hold its own.

It should. That's why I want all of our tax dollars back.

 

[ironsides]

The world sees a problem with Netanyahoo and Israel somebody will put a stop to it, you can count on it. In the end Palestine will be pure just like Israel wants, pure Palestinian.

Not in our life time. The world you refer has no chutzpa to accomplish anything, in reality does not exist in the this world, only in a few minds. Palestine will only be pure when it sanitizes itself and throws out or destroys Hamas and their allies.

 

[ironsides]

Israel uses the USA as its human shields.

Now there we agree.

 

[Cliffy]

That reminds me of a funny story, completely true. When I worked in a horrible public service job, this guy living in his van starting coming around and hanging out. He seemed a little eccentric at first, but when we started talking about politics and eventually Israel, I seen a type of crazy in this man's eyes that made me very uncomfortable and afraid to be around him to say the least.

First he said that Hamas and Hezzbolah were not terrorists but freedom fighters.

Because he said next, the Jews were conspiring to enslave human kind with a one world government.

It gets better. Then he actually tells me that the Jews are actually a secret lizard alien race that have invaded our planet and assumed human form!

This guy wasn't up for debate either, so needless to say I told this whack job to take a hike.

Why are you so afraid of the truth? What he had to say had as much validity as anything you have to say. He was speaking his truth. Just because it doesn't fit into your view of reality doesn't mean anything.

 

[ironsides]

earth_as_one: When we really think of the birth of nations, how many countries were formed without conflict of one kind or another. There have been atrocities through out the history of man against one country, one ethnic people or another, one religious group or another. But there have never been as many atrocities as there have been against the Jewish people. Think about how many times the Jewish people have been persecuted and discriminated against, by almost every country in Europe through out their history, not to mention to a lesser degree here in the so called New World. There is no way to distinguish who was first to own the lands, they both lived there and were ruled by others for thousands of years relatively peaceably only having problems when outside parties got involved. On May 15, 1948, Israel was born and never asked anyone to leave. It was other Arab countries and radical organizations in and around Palestine that threatened Muslims and other none Jews to either take up arms against the New State of Israel or leave under threat of death. Some stayed, but those who left so voluntarily or under duress. I say, so what if Israel commits what some may call an atrocity, they do have the right to live in a secure and protected land, we owe them that.

Now as for those Palestinians living in Gaza, their choice for survival is simple, just stop attacking Israel, end the blood feud. Egypt and Jordan managed to do it.

 

[ironsides]

Why are you so afraid of the truth? What he had to say had as much validity as anything you have to say. He was speaking his truth. Just because it doesn't fit into your view of reality doesn't mean anything.

His truth, your truth, my truth, their truth. There can only be one truth.

 

[Liberalman]

Israel is right and as soon as the Palistinians realize this then there will be peace in the region.

 

[earth_as_one]

Germany elected Hitler, but that did not mean we (the world) should have stood by like we did. You see danger you put a stop to it in advance hopefully, simple answer. The last paragraph of your Reuters article says it all.

"The Egyptian-brokered truce, which took effect June 19, has been shaken by several rocket attacks, prompting Israel to temporarily close the Gaza Strip's border crossings."

Those rocket attacks effectively ended the truce. There was to be no rocket attacks, nice that Hamas arrested the two who launched the rockets. It was to late, the rockets were launched.

Your statements lack compassion and reason. They are an effort to justify crimes against humanity and war crimes.

I don't for Hamas much either, but they legitimately represent Palestinians. They still have a democratic mandate until the end of the year. Unlike Abbas, whose mandate ended over a year ago and has since become a dictator.

When I look at the chart below and I can tell exactly when Hamas started their ceasefire and when Israel broke it.



Hamas stopped their attacks and was 99% effective at eliminating the rogue militant attacks. I see a legitimate effort by Hamas. Maybe not enough to justify opening the borders competely, but certainly more than enough to warrant allowing aid to return to near normal levels.

When I look at the amount of aid Israel allowed into Gaza, it sure doesn't look to me like the amount of aid Israel allowed into Gaza had much to do Hamas's efforts to eliminate mortar and rocket attacks. When I compare September 2008 to October 2008 for example, I see Israel reducing the level of aid entering Gaza, despite Hamas nearly eliminating all rocket and mortar attacks.


BBC NEWS | Middle East | Guide: Gaza under blockade

The above chart looks to me like Israel collectively punishing 1.5 million people regardless of whether militants fire rockets and mortars at Israel or not.

Neither side abided by the terms of the truce 100%. But Hamas was obviously making an effort. I see no corresponding "good will" response by Israel to increase aid in response to descreased attacks.

>>>>>>>>>>>

The first step to solving a problem is to recognize the problem.

The root cause of the Israeli-Palestinian problem isn't that complicated to identify once you eliminate the propaganda.

For centuries Palestine was a peaceful corner of the world. That changed when Zionists began ethnic cleansing Palestine of Palestinians. In 1947-48, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians lost their homes and property. Since then, Zionist ethnic cleansing to turn Palestine into a pure Jewish state has been constant. Today millions of displaced Palestinians live in poverty in refugee camps throughout the region while hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants live on illegally seized and ethnically cleansed Palestinian property.

As Israel seizes more and more Palestinian land, Palestinians continue to be displaced into ever smaller walled in concentration camps where they suffer poverty, malnutrition and disease.

Experts from South Africa recognized this problem as a form of apartheid. They should know, having experienced the same thing themselves. Israel's apartheid policies have been going on since Israel's creation and as a result this area has been a war zone ever since.

Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears. Zionism in its current form is evil.

Hamas was formed after decades Zionist injustice and oppression. That makes Hamas an effect not a cause.

 

[ironsides]

Your statements lack compassion and reason. They are an effort to justify crimes against humanity and war crimes.

I don't for Hamas much either, but they legitimately represent Palestinians. They still have a democratic mandate until the end of the year. Unlike Abbas, whose mandate ended over a year ago and has since become a dictator.

When I look at the chart below and I can tell exactly when Hamas started their ceasefire and when Israel broke it.



Hamas stopped their attacks and was 99% effective at eliminating the rogue militant attacks. I see a legitimate effort by Hamas. Maybe not enough to justify opening the borders competely, but certainly more than enough to warrant allowing aid to return to near normal levels.

When I look at the amount of aid Israel allowed into Gaza, it sure doesn't look to me like the amount of aid Israel allowed into Gaza had much to do Hamas's efforts to eliminate mortar and rocket attacks. When I compare September 2008 to October 2008 for example, I see Israel reducing the level of aid entering Gaza, despite Hamas nearly eliminating all rocket and mortar attacks.


BBC NEWS | Middle East | Guide: Gaza under blockade

The above chart looks to me like Israel collectively punishing 1.5 million people regardless of whether militants fire rockets and mortars at Israel or not.

Neither side abided by the terms of the truce 100%. But Hamas was obviously making an effort. I see no corresponding "good will" response by Israel to increase aid in response to descreased attacks.

>>>>>>>>>>>

The first step to solving a problem is to recognize the problem.

The root cause of the Israeli-Palestinian problem isn't that complicated to identify once you eliminate the propaganda.
Exactly, stop using the voice's of those who would like to see the end of Israel to quote from.
For centuries Palestine was a peaceful corner of the world. That changed when Zionists began ethnic cleansing Palestine of Palestinians. In 1947-48, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians lost their homes and property. Since then, Zionist ethnic cleansing to turn Palestine into a pure Jewish state has been constant. Today millions of displaced Palestinians live in poverty in refugee camps throughout the region while hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants live on illegally seized and ethnically cleansed Palestinian property.

As Israel seizes more and more Palestinian land, Palestinians continue to be displaced into ever smaller walled in concentration camps where they suffer poverty, malnutrition and disease.

Experts from South Africa recognized this problem as a form of apartheid. They should know, having experienced the same thing themselves. Israel's apartheid policies have been going on since Israel's creation and as a result this area has been a war zone ever since.

Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears. Zionism in its current form is evil.

Hamas was formed after decades Zionist injustice and oppression. That makes Hamas an effect not a cause.

What is in Blue is an out right lie.

There can never be compassion and reason when those you supposedly made peace with will not honor the agreement. If one of your family was killed by the 1% (according to your figures) would the treaty have meant anything. Hamas must eliminate ALL rocket and mortar attacks. I know any civilized country is capable of doing that. I don't see Mexico, Canada or the U.S. shooting rockets and mortars at each other even though there are probably groups who would like to. Israel is allowing food and medicine into Gaza contrary to what Hamas supporters say.

"Hamas has four sources of financing:
1 - Contributions from donors across the world who believe in the jihadist action of the Islamist movement against the Israeli “occupier”.
2 - Contributions from countries and organizations that openly support Hamas’s fight against Israel, such as Iran and Hezbollah. These two countries also help Hamas with logistics and equipment.
3 – Contributions from the Muslim Brotherhood organization and its collaborators throughout the Arab world who see Hamas as an extension of their organization.
4 – Hamas funds, investments and taxes on several activities.
Most arms for Palestinian Territories and Hamas transit through the Rafah tunnel between Egypt and Gaza."

Stop the above and Gaza would get anything they want., but it is the people of Gaza who must do it.

 

[darkbeaver]

In the Israeli Death Camp Gaza children are being shot in the head by Israeli heros and they and their parents are being starved before the worlds eyes. Support for Israel is drying up and the projects are going bad, the timing can't be repaired, Israel will be crushed once and forever.

 

[YukonJack]

"Israel practicing apartheid and colonialism".

In other words, DEMOCRACY.

 

[earth_as_one]

What is in Blue is an out right lie.
eao: Coming from you that's practically a compliment.

There can never be compassion and reason when those you supposedly made peace with will not honor the agreement. If one of your family was killed by the 1% (according to your figures) would the treaty have meant anything. Hamas must eliminate ALL rocket and mortar attacks. I know any civilized country is capable of doing that. I don't see Mexico, Canada or the U.S. shooting rockets and mortars at each other even though there are probably groups who would like to. Israel is allowing food and medicine into Gaza contrary to what Hamas supporters say.

eao: The graphs don't lie. They clearly show Israel collectively punishing 1.5 million people. Since Israel destroyed Gaza farms and infrastructure, the amount of aid required to meet Gaza's basic needs has gone up, not down. Yet Gaza is getting less that a quarter of what they were getting in January 2007. The math is quite simple.


"Hamas has four sources of financing:
1 - Contributions from donors across the world who believe in the jihadist action of the Islamist movement against the Israeli “occupier”.
2 - Contributions from countries and organizations that openly support Hamas’s fight against Israel, such as Iran and Hezbollah. These two countries also help Hamas with logistics and equipment.
3 – Contributions from the Muslim Brotherhood organization and its collaborators throughout the Arab world who see Hamas as an extension of their organization.
4 – Hamas funds, investments and taxes on several activities.
Most arms for Palestinian Territories and Hamas transit through the Rafah tunnel between Egypt and Gaza."

Stop the above and Gaza would get anything they want., but it is the people of Gaza who must do it.

Hamas was created in 1987. Four decades after the original Zionist ethnic cleansing war which started this catastrophe. Two decades after Israel seized Gaza and the West Bank and began their 20 year + rolling annexation of land designated for a future Palestinian state.

No doubt Hamas are nasty and they get funding from nasty people. But if you pick on defenseless people long enough, sooner or later some of them are going to try to give some of what they've been getting. Consider that Israeli Jews have a negative growth rate, Palestinians are multiplying like bunnies, nearly every person in the middle east has a strongly negative to hostile attitude toward Israel and support the Palestinian cause, I'd say time is on their side.

You can demonize Palestinians all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they suffer injustice and oppression. Israel has violated every law regarding fundamental human rights with these people. Just when you think Israel can't possibly sink any lower or do something more despicable, they find a new way to torture, humiliate, murder... and blame their victim. Gotta give the Israeli government credit for creativity and their ability to obfuscate reality. They have committed horrendous atrocities and yet still are able to convince the gullible that the world's 3rd most powerful military power which is supported unconditionally by the world's most powerful nation have been victimized by a group of people whose standard of living thanks to Israel ranks down there with Somalia and Ethiopia. But everyone in the middle east knows what's going on and so do most people in Europe. Even Israelis know what's going on. Its just the US and Canada where few people are aware of Israel's brutal war crimes and crimes against humanity.

No group of people has ever gotten away with treating another people as poorly as Israelis have treated Palestinians indefinitely. Sooner or later, the oppressed rise up and overthrow their oppressor... I can't think of a single exception. Its only a matter of time. That's not a wish but an observation.

 

[CDNBear]

But if you pick on defenseless people long enough, sooner or later some of them are going to try to give some of what they've been getting.

Funny you should say that, considering that the brutality against Jews began before Israel even existed. ESPECIALLY from the Muslim Brotherhood, the parent organization of Hamas, and the group from which it's founder came from.

Shall I post the proof again?

 

[earth_as_one]

Jews have been treated badly historically, especially in Europe. But in Palestine, they were accepted and treated the same as any other religious minority. Relative to Europe, Palestine could be considered a safe haven for Jews. Compared to Europe or most other Muslim countries, Jews were welcome and accepted in Palestine and the rest of the Ottoman empire. Palestinian Muslims have a long history of peaceful co-existance with all religious minorities including Jews. Before Zionism, Jewish, Muslim and Christian Palestinians more or less lived together peacefully.

The current trouble in Palestine began with Zionism or are you going to argue that Jews living in Palestine during the 1930's were treated worse than Jews in Poland or Germany? Anti-semiticism was rampant in Europe, not Palestine. Yes a few people and leaders had anti-semitic tendencies, but in general the average Palestinian was known for their hospitality for the guests regardless of religion.

Organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood formed after long after Zionism. They are a consequence of Europe colonization or meddling in Muslim affairs throughout the middle east. They became a factor in Palestine during the British mandate and were a reaction to growing Jewish immigration and European influence. A small minority of Palestinians turned to the brotherhood when they became concerned that Jews fleeing Europe might try to seize control of Palestine with the help of the Brits. Hamas is an offshoot of this movement.

But in general, it no more accurate to claim that all Palestinians are anti-semitic than it is to claim all white Armericans used to own slaves. The reality is more complex.

But if European anti-semiticism justifies creating a Jewish homeland, then it should have been at the expense of Bavarians, where Jews were treated the worst, not Palestine, where Jews were well treated.

 

[ironsides]

Again:
"Hamas has four sources of financing:
1 - Contributions from donors across the world who believe in the jihadist action of the Islamist movement against the Israeli “occupier”.
2 - Contributions from countries and organizations that openly support Hamas’s fight against Israel, such as Iran and Hezbollah. These two countries also help Hamas with logistics and equipment.
3 – Contributions from the Muslim Brotherhood organization and its collaborators throughout the Arab world who see Hamas as an extension of their organization.
4 – Hamas funds, investments and taxes on several activities.
Most arms for Palestinian Territories and Hamas transit through the Rafah tunnel between Egypt and Gaza."

Stop the above and Gaza would get anything they want., but it is the people of Gaza who must do it.

Nazi Germany promoted violence against the Jews in Palestine during the thirties by forming Arab Storm Troopers. These Storm Troopers operated till well after WW-2 and were only destroyed after Israeli independence. Before that there was violence between them, but they managed to live in relative peace.

 

[darkbeaver]

Funny you should say that, considering that the brutality against Jews began before Israel even existed. ESPECIALLY from the Muslim Brotherhood, the parent organization of Hamas, and the group from which it's founder came from.

Shall I post the proof again?

Please do so it can be torn to pieces like the rest of your propaganda crap.

 

[darkbeaver]

Again:
"Hamas has four sources of financing:
1 - Contributions from donors across the world who believe in the jihadist action of the Islamist movement against the Israeli “occupier”.
2 - Contributions from countries and organizations that openly support Hamas’s fight against Israel, such as Iran and Hezbollah. These two countries also help Hamas with logistics and equipment.
3 – Contributions from the Muslim Brotherhood organization and its collaborators throughout the Arab world who see Hamas as an extension of their organization.
4 – Hamas funds, investments and taxes on several activities.
Most arms for Palestinian Territories and Hamas transit through the Rafah tunnel between Egypt and Gaza."

Stop the above and Gaza would get anything they want., but it is the people of Gaza who must do it.

Nazi Germany promoted violence against the Jews in Palestine during the thirties by forming Arab Storm Troopers. These Storm Troopers operated till well after WW-2 and were only destroyed after Israeli independence. Before that there was violence between them, but they managed to live in relative peace.

Israel has never kept a treaty with anyone.