The Sword of the Spirit

[Dexter Sinister]

But then you have read the verses below so you already know even more than I have said.

Yes, I've read them. They don't mean anything like what you think they mean. They're fairly typical of apocalyptic literature, exhortations to the downtrodden faithful to remain faithful, god will set all things right and punish the evil, repressive, persecuting occupying power, which was Rome at the time that was written. It's not about today, or the future, it's about the emperor Domitian's widespread persecution of Christians.

 

[MHz]

It means now would be a good time to stop acting up. (when those words are actually spoken so as to be heard by those there)

Those few verse don't relate to everything you listed, it relates to just one thing, He sets things right in the new Earth.

 

[Cliffy]

It means now would be a good time to stop acting up. (when those words are actually spoken so as to be heard by those there)

Those few verse don't relate to everything you listed, it relates to just one thing, He sets things right in the new Earth.

Why the hell did he create that mess in the first place. "Let's see. I'm bored. I will create a bunch of morons and damn them all to hell for being morons. That should be fun!"

 

[MHz]

The shortest most comfortable path that man could have followed (straight and narrow is always the shortest route) would have been for Adam and Eve to have remained in the Garden having children and their children having children until the tree of life had fruit (or leaves or whatever reverses death and restores eternal life). All would have remained righteous and without sin until an appointed time where mankind was to eat from the tree of knowledge, head for the grave (sleep) for 3 1/2 days (as it is now the only ones who do that are the two witnesses) and then be resurrected and given immortality.
Satan's meddling changed the sequence of events, firstly God greatly multiplied Eve's capacity to bear children. Without that Satan could make them extinct before that day where some had to enter the graves for that specific time (and place). Without the fall they would have been the number that are alive for the thousand years and no more. The sea, the graves, and hell would have been empty sin sin it was a sin-free world up until everybody back to Adam would have eaten all at the same time. Quick nap and they are awake again and have knowledge they did not have before.
With that increase in people now the sea and death and hell have people in them, those come alive at Judgment Day and when the new City descends to earth for the first time the growth explodes because a lot are there that should just now be being born for the 1st time.

 

[Cliffy]

Mhz,

You have the most unique interpretation of the bible I have ever heard, and I have heard a vast number of them. Too bad it is all a bunch of nonsense. It is just another opinion about a work of fiction.

 

[MHz]

Obviously there is no use showing you the verses, after you read them my outlook wouldn't be so unique at all. The key phrase in your whole post is "I have ever heard', not "that I have every read", the next question is why would they deliberately lie to you?

 

[Cliffy]

Obviously there is no use showing you the verses, after you read them my outlook wouldn't be so unique at all. The key phrase in your whole post is "I have ever heard', not "that I have every read", the next question is why would they deliberately lie to you?

Oh, I have read them and my interpretation is nothing like those I have heard. My vote is with Dex and Niflmir. Taking myths and metaphors as literal truth is just plain silly.

 

[MHz]

I keep trying to point this out, even if you see it as fiction, the same combination of verses should have led you to the same thing I have said. Even white in a fiction book should still be taken to mean white. Being part of a collective doesn't always increase the odds of you being right

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Satan's meddling changed the sequence of events...

And the omnipotent, omniscient deity didn't see that coming? Evidently god's plans can be thwarted by a talking serpent. Genesis nowhere refers to it as Satan, that's a later interpretation, the clear implication in Genesis is that it's just another of the many beasts of the field that god made. The name Satan doesn't appear in the OT, at least in English versions, until Job 1:6, and he's clearly not a serpent there, he's walking around. The original Hebrew word just means an adversary or accuser, and in Hebrew versions the word appears in 1 Samuel where one of the Philistine leaders identifies David that way. Adversary is all Satan is the few times he appears in the OT, he doesn't appear as the diabolical counterpart of god until the NT.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...even if you see it as fiction, the same combination of verses should have led you to the same thing I have said.

That doesn't make any sense. There's no reason why emotive declarations in fiction should lead to any conclusions about reality.

 

[MHz]

I didn't say it would do that, I said reading the same verses should have led to the same conclusion independent of whether you see it as being fiction rather than factual. For instance Hebrews 12 is about some being chastised, is that it or is it the warm-up for even greater punishments?

 

[In Between Man]

...And if I am, my attitude on judgment day is going to be, "You gave us the powers of reason and intelligence and then insisted we not use them when it came to trying to understand the single most important fact--your existence--about the reality you created, but just accept without evidence that certain things are true. That's a dirty trick, and I will not worship you, not now, not ever."

And he might respond by saying "How is it that others I gave reason and intelligence to were able to find me? No evidence? Surely you have noticed that you exist, just as others have? Others have seen the same starry skies you have, and others have acted according to the moral code written within, just as you have. You had all the same resources as the believers: reason, intelligence, evidence. So what is different? Your will."

There's something that hasn't come up often in this debate yet. We talk about evidence or lack thereof, but what human will?

Why do some willfully seek God, and others willfully separate?

 

[Cliffy]

A promise in the bible is to seek and ye shall find. I have talked with people from a variety of religious, spiritual and philosophical persuasions and all have gone through the same process that we all go through. Question, seek answers and I noticed that they all ended up in different places, believing in something different from the others.

How can this be. One is a Buddhist, one a Baptist, and Pentecostal, a Mormon, a Baha'i, an atheist. I was led to the Native American spirituality because, living in the forest, it just made more sense. Either the bible is lying or people are led to what they can assimilate into their beliefs and their lives. Perhaps there are universal truths but they can be expressed in many different ways.

It is my contention that the truth was given to all people at all geographical locations throughout all the historical time frames. They were given it in terms they could understand, in their language, in reference to the things that were part of the environment and daily activities.

Nobody's version, translation or interpretation is any better or more sanctified than anybody else's. Religion ruins the spirit of the truth by making it dogmatic and exclusive. "My religion is better than your religion. My god is more powerful than your god!" What a bunch of juvenile stupidity. If you believe your god favours you more than any other people, you are a racist and an egotistical elitist. And that is exactly the motivation for going out and prosthilatizing your brand of dogma.

Your belief is your belief. It is only really relevant to you. The need to drag someone else into your little exclusive circle jerk is based on insecurity; a belief system built on quicksand. I recall that Jesus chastized the self righteous. They will be the first ones to be rejected.

 

[herald]

"A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you...And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU..." Ezek 36:26,27.

Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3.

No matter what you have done, He is waiting for you to take Him as your Savior, and invite His Spirit to live within you.

I have cast out demons, raised the dead, and healed the sick...not by my power, but, by His Spirit living within me.

If you want to have eternal life, just ask Him to live within you.

 

[El Barto]

"A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you...And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU..." Ezek 36:26,27.

Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3.

No matter what you have done, He is waiting for you to take Him as your Savior, and invite His Spirit to live within you.

I have cast out demons, raised the dead, and healed the sick...not by my power, but, by His Spirit living within me.

If you want to have eternal life, just ask Him to live within you.[/quote]
Um why? I believe in re-encarnation :lol:

 

[Dexter Sinister]

And he might respond by saying "How is it that others I gave reason and intelligence to were able to find me? No evidence?

Right, no evidence. You're offering a thinly disguised version of the Argument from Design, which begs the question. Read Cliffy's post below yours, that's essentially the same argument I'd have made if he hadn't got there first. If there really were good evidence, it would point to only one conclusion, not the multiplicity of very different and mutually incompatible ones people have arrived at.

 

[MHz]

I believe in re-encarnation :lol:

Maybe you are stardust and from human you do go to dust and start the whole process all over again. Being dust you support a seed and on up the line, again, and again. Dust and wind might enjoy the dances but it (returning to dust) doesn't seem to be any kind of ascension or something you would want remain for eternity.

 

[MHz]

I have cast out demons, raised the dead, and healed the sick...not by my power, but, by His Spirit living within me.

Does that that mean they are now freely roaming around able to infect many when before they had been trapped in just one body causing minimal damage to society? Does being Anointed by God come with some sort of card cause now you are making claims that are not supported by anything written in the NT, other than telling people to be wary of such people, leaven and all that stuff....

 

[Cliffy]

Maybe you are stardust and from human you do go to dust and start the whole process all over again. Being dust you support a seed and on up the line, again, and again. Dust and wind might enjoy the dances but it (returning to dust) doesn't seem to be any kind of ascension or something you would want remain dust to remain for eternity.

That is the assumption of the dogmatic mind, the mind that does not look outside its own belief system to try to understand what others are thinking.

Reincarnation allows for spiritual growth. There is no way to experience all there is to experience about being human in one life time. You will never know what it is like to be of a different sex or race, to live in different geographical locations in different historical time frames or cultures. It is call spiritual evolution and cannot be discovered in a book. It has to be experienced in life.

I do not believe in the standard version of reincarnation, but I would feel cheated if all there was to life was one pass at the game. There are a lot of things that I did wrong or would have done differently in this lifetime. Perhaps I will get them right in the next one. And I don't believe in dust. That is mostly dead skin. But the energy that animated this vehicle that I call my body is never diminished or destroyed. It is just transformed into new form.

 

[El Barto]

That is the assumption of the dogmatic mind, the mind that does not look outside its own belief system to try to understand what others are thinking.

Reincarnation allows for spiritual growth. There is no way to experience all there is to experience about being human in one life time. You will never know what it is like to be of a different sex or race, to live in different geographical locations in different historical time frames or cultures. It is call spiritual evolution and cannot be discovered in a book. It has to be experienced in life.

I do not believe in the standard version of reincarnation, but I would feel cheated if all there was to life was one pass at the game. There are a lot of things that I did wrong or would have done differently in this lifetime. Perhaps I will get them right in the next one. And I don't believe in dust. That is mostly dead skin. But the energy that animated this vehicle that I call my body is never diminished or destroyed. It is just transformed into new form.

Oh man I said that?!!
Then again I have to explain that it was more of an image than actual or literate.
All I can say about my beliefs is I am not bound to one thing . It varies and on a certain level I don't hold on too tightly. In the end , we are never sure of anything , not on this side of life and the perception of what's on the other side.