Canada more democratic than the U.S.?

[JLM]

Come on guys, we all struggle for the right words at times and we all knew "incarcerated" was the word meant to be used. I hate it when I do it.

But yeah I chuckled too. ;-)

I still have a chuckle after 40 years when I think of a friend of my dad who always said "I'm not sure if it's a detriment or a liability"

 

[JLM]

Maybe since it's good Friday it would be fitting to start a thread quoting examples of how the English language has been crucified.

 

[Sublime]

Crucified, shot, and urinated on....EH!

 

[JLM]

Crucified, shot, and urinated on....EH!

One poster pointed out to me that use of the word "crucify" outside of the Bible for other than bibical reasons is sacreligious, so if you get a deluge of diatribe be forewarned...........:lol:

 

[Sublime]

Politicians use the word all the time....OH...POINT TAKEN.LOL!

 

[JLM]

Politicians use the word all the time....OH...POINT TAKEN.LOL!

Me too, like I told the disgrunted poster nobody/nothing has "ownership" of any word unless it's capitalized. Anyway I'm not THAT religious.........:lol::lol::lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Me too, like I told the disgrunted poster nobody/nothing has "ownership" of any word unless it's capitalized. Anyway I'm not THAT religious.........:lol::lol::lol:

As Humpty Dumpty said (was it Humpty Dumpty?), the questions is, who is the master. To Humpty Dumpty, a word means what he wants it to mean.

 

[VanIsle]

A sad fact is a lot of Canadians do tend to look down their noses at those who live south of the 49th. I've never really seen a logical basis for this but it exists, even among people who are not aware or don't want to admit to it.
I don't think we really tend to look down at Americans. I think what we look down at is their tendency to treat us as second class citizens. Not all of them do that of course but the ones that do make you want to reach out and give them a clip upside the head. When Americans get a little cocky, it makes us resentful. In the end, we all live in North America so we are all americans of a sort so they need to realize that and treat us as the equals we are.



Actually thats false in a number of respects. We never had the civil rights struggles that the US did, in part because importing slavery to Canada didn't make economic sense, as it did in some parts of the US and other areas around the globe. But we have had to deal with diverse and divergent cultures just as the US has. The net population isn't the same and the sources aren't (the British tended to target northern Europe in advertising for settlers which is why we have high populations of Germans, Poles, Scandinavians, Ukrainians, etc. particularly in the West). And the British DID institute their law and culture everywhere except Quebec. This was reinforced by the loyalists who fled the US following the American Revolution and settled in Atlantic Canada and Upper Canada (present day Ontario). IMO its a large part of why official bilingualism has always fallen flat in most places outside Quebec and New Brunswick (the only truly bilingual province in the country): we have no real reason to want to promote/preserve a culture and language that isn't ours.



No insult taken but what does total population have to do with it? Its a case of proportionality. You don't need 200 or 300 million people to have a functioning democracy. You can have one with 2 or 3 dozen. To be honest, I see a lot of things the US has done right (see my earlier posts in this thread or Colpy's posts that I agree with. I also see some things that strike me as wrong: for example, I don't agree with the current Canadian laws that allow prison inmates to vote as they are under sentence for violating the rights of other citizens. To me a suspension of their right to be involved in the democratic process is just. However, I feel that once their sentence is fully served (i.e. prison time served, fines paid, community service/probation/parole is finished), they should have that right reinstated, whereas in the US once you have a criminal record you are not eligible to vote, and I see that as an injustice. I realize some won't agree with my stance on both ends but thats where I'm at.

I agree with everything else you have to say.

 

[jimmoyer]

That's "thoughtful", and it requires a brain......which means you are obviously unqualified.

1. The United States House of Representatives is elected every TWO years.......as opposed to the House of Commons, which is elected every 5 years or earlier, usually at the whim of the PM.

2. A representative in the US House is not bound by Party discipline, he votes as his conscience and/or his constituents dictate, often against his party's wishes. In Canada, party discipline in the House accounts for all, MPs that vote against the party are severely punished.....a good majority gov't is, in effect, a five-year dictatorship by the PM

3. In Canada, much of our law is passed through Order in Council, which never sees Parliament......although it is supposed to....all US legislation is voted upon.

4. In Canada, senators are appointed solely on the whim of the PM, and sit until age 75, no matter how long that is.

5. US Senators are elected for six year terms.

6. In the USA, the Head of State (the President) is elected.

7. In Canada, the Head of State is a hereditary monarch, as represented by the GG.

Unavoidable conclusion? The USA is MUCH more democratic thann Canada.

Good post Colby.

But in the end, both systems have similar results:

1. High overall dissatisfaction
2. apathy
3. the same bell curve of great disparities in wealth distribution
4. the same amount of corruption
5. the same amount of misuse of public funds

Your post only begins to detail the differences, but aren't the overall results the same?

For that matter, you might say this of any western democracy, whether it is more socialist or more capitalistic, it does not seem to change the growing disparities between the wealthy and the poor.

There should always be some disparity, but should it continue in a trend of ever greater disparity?

Final point: There is one monster in the room that trumps any system or process, and that is the zeitgeist of the culture. The dominant echo chamber of the internet, the public chatter (what used to be known as the chattering classes) is quite a threat to any politician's career.

 

[JLM]

I agree with everything else you have to say.

Don't you find the way these posts are set up it's hard to tell who's writing what- I really couldn't tell what was yours and what was wulfie's except for the first paragraph and the last sentence. Anyway I think Americans are mostly very fine people as far as character goes, as for the laws and customs that's their business not ours- I value their friendliness, helpfulness and hospitality and don't really care if they think I'm from Grand Forks, North Dakota..........:lol::lol::lol:

 

[ironsides]

Did you know no-where in the U.S. constitution are there the words democracy, republic is used, but not democracy!
We have representation by population where as the U.S. does not!

Yes, that is strange yet the United States is much more democratic than Canada. Just shows, what is in a word? Canada has representation by Provinces, while the U.S. has representation by the people.

 

[wulfie68]

Canada has representation by Provinces, while the U.S. has representation by the people.

Huh?

I'm not sure where you derive that from. The federal gov't in Canada is comprised of two houses:

- the House of Commons which consists ofmembers of parliament, elected across the country by the people they represent
- the Senate which consists of appointees by the Prime Minister's office, nominated by the provinces

The Prime Minister is the leader of the party of the most seats in the House of Commons, usually selected by his party before the general elections and thus subject to public confirmation.

We can argue the legitimacy/viability of the appointed house but its members are selected by the PM, who is chosen by the people, not by the provincial gov'ts (who are also elected by the general public ).

Honestly, I think both nations have room for improvement and either one saying "we're better than you" is laughable.

 

[JLM]

Yes, that is strange yet the United States is much more democratic than Canada. Just shows, what is in a word? Canada has representation by Provinces, while the U.S. has representation by the people.

Provinces have very little to do with it, we have representation by seats (of fairly equal population), average roughtly 100,000 people per seat. The only places where provinces have anything to do with it is that every seat is contained within a single province and the Belle Province has the added enjoyment of the Bloc.

 

[JLM]

Huh?

I'm not sure where you derive that from. The federal gov't in Canada is comprised of two houses:

- the House of Commons which consists ofmembers of parliament, elected across the country by the people they represent
- the Senate which consists of appointees by the Prime Minister's office, nominated by the provinces

The Prime Minister is the leader of the party of the most seats in the House of Commons, usually selected by his party before the general elections and thus subject to public confirmation.

We can argue the legitimacy/viability of the appointed house but its members are selected by the PM, who is chosen by the people, not by the provincial gov'ts (who are also elected by the general public ).

Honestly, I think both nations have room for improvement and either one saying "we're better than you" is laughable.

Yep I think comparing CAnada and the U.S. it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, we're both better off than most countries in the world, where you are told what to do & if you don't like it kerpow.

 

[ironsides]

Yep I think comparing CAnada and the U.S. it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, we're both better off than most countries in the world, where you are told what to do & if you don't like it kerpow.

I'll take that one step further, we are both better off than any other country in the world.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yep I think comparing CAnada and the U.S. it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, we're both better off than most countries in the world, where you are told what to do & if you don't like it kerpow.

JLM, that is what I have said all along, the two systems are different types of democracies. USA is presidential democracy, while Canada is Parliamentary democracy. Each type has its advantages and disadvantages.

The one thing I like about Canadian system is that we have better protection for fundamental, basic human rights. In Canada they are not subject to the whim of the majority. In many states in USA, they are subject to the whim of the majority, to be taken away by 50%+1 vote by the majority (as happened in California regarding gay marriage).

 

[EagleSmack]

The one thing I like about Canadian system is that we have better protection for fundamental, basic human rights. In Canada they are not subject to the whim of the majority. In many states in USA, they are subject to the whim of the majority, to be taken away by 50%+1 vote by the majority (as happened in California regarding gay marriage).

That is where the judicial system can step in and wipe away a popular vote as it did in California when they voted against providing health care to illegal aliens.

Checks and balances

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don’t know about illegal aliens, EagleSmack, that is your internal problem. Personally, I think you do have a big problem there and you should do something about it (I don’t know what, just don’t ship them all to Canada).

I was referring to gay marriage, which is a human rights issue. You know my views about that, it is a matter for the courts and legislatures to decide, not for the majority to decide by 50%+1 vote. And that is how it is done in Canada. In my opinion, that is an advantage.

 

[EagleSmack]

I don’t know about illegal aliens, EagleSmack, that is your internal problem. Personally, I think you do have a big problem there and you should do something about it (I don’t know what, just don’t ship them all to Canada).

I was referring to gay marriage, which is a human rights issue. You know my views about that, it is a matter for the courts and legislatures to decide, not for the majority to decide by 50%+1 vote. And that is how it is done in Canada. In my opinion, that is an advantage.

You were referring to the BIGGER picture of the minority being at the whim of the majority by popular vote. You said in the US a popular vote can tread upon minority or other issues without further recourse. I am saying that your statement is false and single judges or judicial courts have wiped away popular votes with a sweep of a pen by declaring it Unconstitutional.

Here is Massachusetts the public tried to get rid of the Mass Turnpike Authority many years ago. The Turnpike bonds had been paid off and the reason for the tolls and turnpike was to ONLY pay off the bonds then the TP Authority would be disbanded. The people of Massachusetts spoke and tried to hold the Mass TP Authority to it's charter. A judge swept the motion aside declaring it unconstitutional for the people to decide such a thing by popular vote.

 

[wulfie68]

The thing is SirJoseph is that their 50% +1 propositions are still subject to their constitution so I'd say your belief in superior Canadian protection isn't necessarily true: it comes down to what the respective Supreme Courts decide.