Earth Hour: Turn Off the Lights!

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
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So do you, Extrafire. You are apparently trying to convince us that what, zero people participated in the event?
Where did you get that idea? Zero? If you're going to invent a position for me at least make it plausible.

I must say, I have rarely come across such virulent, hostile anti-environmentalism before. You are trying to convince us that the whole thing was a flop, without any evidence to back up your contention.
Virulent? Hostile? You're getting rather extreme in your efforts to villify me.:lol: Anti-environmentalism? Oh puleeeze! A flop? What did I say that led you to...oh right, you're making it up.

You don’t have a single website giving your number (zero or whatever you think it is), just your personal opinion. And we are supposed to accept your rant against WWF and against environment at its face value, without any evidence.
I don't have a clue what it is and I don't really care. As for my "rant" against WWF, I backed up my claims with websites.

Well, maybe some will, but not me.

Incidentally, it may interest you to know that even far right website like worldnetdaily reported that one billion people participated. Editor of worldnetdaily, Farah urged his followers to turn on their lights more than usual.

So it must have been particularly galling for him to admit that 1 billion people participated. It must have been a bitter pill to swallow. But though belonging to far right, at least he is honest.

Which is more than can be said for some (or indeed, most) anti-environmentalists.
Yes I checked it out and noticed last night that he reported that. I was going to mention that a "far right" website has the same ideas as you. Hmmmm....what could that mean?:roll:

I expect he got his number from the WWF. It may even be true. I don't care what the number is, my only points were 1. WWF came up with the number before the event, and 2. WWF is massively hypocritical, calling for people to reduce their carbon footprints while spewing out massive amounts with their luxury tourism travel business. You have yet to address either of those points.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
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It's sad because it's come to that level of pettiness--there are an astronomical number of better things to protest.
I fail to see any pettiness, though I'm sure you would like to ascribe that to me. As for "better things" to protest, I can't think of one. The "earth hour" demonstration was designed to give a big push to government action against carbon emissions. The more such actions are implemented, the more human misery there will be. You think the economic downturn is bad, you ain't seen nothin' yet! Just the publicity around biofuels has caused a big jump in world food prices which we can well afford, but which is causing hunger amoung the worlds poorest. And there isn't even a food shortage, it's just the impression that food will be diverted into fuel that resulted in the jump in futures markets.

It's irresponsible because it's deliberately wasteful. (I could also add that it's hypocritical/contradictory because you're protesting WWF irresponsibility/hypocrisy by acting irresponsibly.)

Better?
Better. But, of course, I disagree. I live on "Candy Cane Lane" in my town. For 8 hours every day for one month every Christmas, strings of lights crisscross the street between trees and lamposts, houses are festooned with lights and displays. Thousands of people drive throught the neighborhood to see them. Now that's wasteful. Yet most of the people on my street turned off their lights for earth hour, and next year those same people will be lighting up for Christmas as usual. Now that's hypocritical! And once earth hour was over they went back to burning electricity as usual while I turned off my excess lighting.

I don't consider my actions to be wasteful. I use much more electricity running this computer every day than went into my protest. I use much more every day running my wood lathe making unnecessary (but nice) doo-dads and trinkets. Besides, it was definitely not during peak load times, there was excess capacity available from all the people turning off their lights, so it was the absolute best time for that particular demonstration.

Didn't the good citizens of Sydney turn on every light possible one night a few years ago so they could be seen from the space shuttle, or something like that? Not to consistent are they?

Yes, because it is about global warming. It targets emissions that cause global warming. People who participate in Earth Hour are usually against harmful emissions in general. Hence, Earth Hour is necessarily also about reducing harmful emissions in general.
Those who participated in my protest also are opposed to harmful emissions. In fact if the money being spent on "global warming" were spent on real pollution problems the world would be a much cleaner, healthier place. For those who support earth hour, the reduction in harmful emissions are basically a beneficial side effect.
 
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captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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I have answers. Still waiting for you to produce a single point based in reality and not flippant bull ****. Why haven't you supplied anything to any of us?

I'll PM the answer to cannuck. Maybe he or she will fill you in.

Like I mentioned to tonington, I am not the one that is pointing fingers, identifying causation and demanding that something be done.

I have repeatedly indicated the nature of my position... Your response is in the expected fashion of offering nothing in any form at all... Typical of the eco-fringe movement whose solitary option is to sway opinion via scare tactics rather than 'enlighten' anyone.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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The 'facts' as represented by either position are suspect to say the least... BTW - Theory does not automatically qualify as fact.

Only scientific theories qualify as fact. The lay definition of theory does not. A scientific theory is interchangeable with scientific laws when it comes to matters of fact. There are of course differences, but they both deal with facts. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be lecturing anyone about matters scientific.

You have yet to address a known fact in your cycles mumbo jumbo. I've answered questions of yours, yet you refuse to indulge mine. Then you hypocritically chastise Petros for not answering yours.

Address the cooling stratosphere. How does any of the cycles found within the climate explain that? Greenhouse warming, and ozone depletion do. You better have a good explanation for that.

How about warming nights? Can you explain with cycles why the night time temperatures are warming faster than daytime temperatures? The radiative physics involved with greenhouse gases can. Do you have an explanation for that?

Are you all talk? Do you have anything substantive?
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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Scientific theories are just that. Once they are proven, they become facts.

Man decsended from monkey ... Theory (which is subject to modification)

Black rock is hard ... Fact (challenge if you want but it would be a waste of time)
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Scientific theories are just that. Once they are proven, they become facts.

The germ theory of disease, proven. The cell theory of biology, proven. Scientific theories are fact. They are facts because countless repeated investigations yield the same result. Modifying the theory is done with new information, and doesn't mean previous information was not factual.

Scientific theories are fact.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Low Earth Orbit
Tonington - It's frustrating being a scientist in today's world. If you can make teeth bright and white you are a hero, if you deliver a message that says there is trouble ahead and humanity has to change you are wrong and every TV induced zombie will come after you. "Brains....we are jealous of your brains."
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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.... Kinda like 'the Earth is flat' theory or 'the galaxy revolves around the Earth' theory... But we just happen to know better now, right?
There you go bringing up Catholic conspiracies again.

Science wants your money and we will get it through wind power....or the Vatican Bank.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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It is a 'fact' that they are 'theories'. That's it.

.... Kinda like 'the Earth is flat' theory or 'the galaxy revolves around the Earth' theory... But we just happen to know better now, right?

No, nothing like those. We have empiricism as a standard method now. A priori reasoning alone is not enough.

Are you going to attempt to answer my questions? How do natural cycles explain stratospheric cooling and a decreasing diurnal temperature trend?
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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No they didn't. What experiments did they conduct to prove the earth is flat, or to prove a geo-centric galaxy? They were very different, which is why they are nothing like today.

I see you're still avoiding the question. I guess you have your opinions at least.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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No they didn't. What experiments did they conduct to prove the earth is flat, or to prove a geo-centric galaxy? They were very different, which is why they are nothing like today.

I see you're still avoiding the question. I guess you have your opinions at least.

Sure they did, It's just that their ideas about empiricism are much different than yours. The reality is that at the time when it was declared that the Earth was flat (etc.), they had their logic. Simply because you don't agree with that logic and can identify that flaws doesn't erase the premise that they employed some form of empiricism.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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I was hoping that now that earth hour is over we will bury the thread, but have it your way.

Scientific theories are just that. Once they are proven, they become facts.

Man decsended from monkey ... Theory (which is subject to modification)

Black rock is hard ... Fact (challenge if you want but it would be a waste of time)

Do you have scientific training, Lone Wolf? This really shows your woeful ignorance of scientific methods. What Tonington said is indeed true.


The germ theory of disease, proven. The cell theory of biology, proven. Scientific theories are fact. They are facts because countless repeated investigations yield the same result. Modifying the theory is done with new information, and doesn't mean previous information was not factual.

Scientific theories are fact.

I think non scientific public gets confused by the word ‘theory’. That is why creationists claim that evolution is only a ‘theory’, not a proven fact.

But in science, theories are in fact proven hypothesis. First hypothesis is put forward, it is tested with experimental evidence. When it is verified by evidence, we call it a theory.

Thus we have theory of relativity. It had been proven by huge amount of evidence. But we still call it a theory. And why?

Because in science, a theory can never be proven beyond any doubt. One negative observation is enough to disprove a theory. Thus Theory of Relativity can be disproved if an observation is made which cannot be explained by the theory.

That is why they are called theories. But theory in no way means that it is unproven, with no evidence to support it. Most of the scientific theories have substantial amounts of evidence in support, otherwise they wouldn’t even be considered theories by scientists.

In this Tonington is absolutely correct, scientific theories are facts (to put it in a simplistic way)