Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Tyr....I'm in complete agreement with you here...

Don't quote me, but I don't recall them telling him to cease and desist OR he would get tasered. I know he didn't speak english, but I'm sure they could have made him understand that something very UNnice was going to happen unless he hit the floor. I recall they just tasered him, no warning, nothing. Then tasered him again and again

The cops we have in BC tend to have some "power and control issues"
 

barney

Electoral Member
Aug 1, 2007
336
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The police officers did what they were trained to do.

That's the point: they didn't.

No force allows police to use any weapon --taser included--without just cause (i.e. without having exhausted other reasonable alternatives). Given his fatigued state, the four officers could have easily subdued Dziekanski using conventional methods, in which they are most undeniably trained. They deliberately chose not to.

Basic medical training also tells them that a person in such a fatigued state being exposed to high voltage is particularly prone to cardiac arrest. Even though they chose to ignore most of what was told to them by airport personnel, they still had sufficient information to be aware of this (visual queues alone were suffcient).

The fact that absolutely no effort whatsoever was made to avoid using the taser and that they then proceeded to use it numerous times on the victim (false testimony concerning the number was given in court--noted but eventually ignored of course), again without cause, would be sufficient grounds for a conviction in an equivalent case not involving police (especially in a case where there was video evidence and a number of impartial witnesses).

It is the court's decision to place more or less weight on evidence; they chose to give the evidence the least possible weight. The result was that nothing short of a massive blunder in testimony on the officer's part could have resulted in a verdict other than which what was given--but again, only if the court chose to take the testimony at virtual face value, which it naturally did.

Police deviating from their training is frequently the cause when things go badly (and that's coming from someone who is no fan of many aspects of police training). It's also rarely a case of, "I forgot my training".

There's nothing better than an honourable cop, and I've met a few. That said, a cop who abuses his (and rare though it may be, her) authority must be removed from anything resembling policing. And for those who do so maliciously, imprisonment/rehabilitation has to be an absolute given--to say nothing of murderous behaviour.

That's why those four psychos getting off is a real slap in the face of anyone with a shred of understanding of what civic duty and honour are.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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That's the point: they didn't.

No force allows police to use any weapon --taser included--without just cause ...

You obviously are unaware of the training these officers have. They are trained to take a situation that is out of control and get it under control (ASAP) by the safest means possible and since the RCMP (as well as most of the police forces in North America) consider the taser as safe, that is what they used. They followed their training...period.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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I think with a comment like you have just made you would not have any RCMP friends to be showing it to.

I tend not to hang out with low lifes
You tend not to hang out with low lifes. Well - who do you hang out with. You claim that you showed an article to a member of the RCMP who is a friend of yours and who laughed at what you had to show him so I have to assume that either you were dishonest with us (which is what I believed anyway) or that you actually have the honour to have a friend who is a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I still have a tough time believing any member of the Force would hang out with your ilk. I've seen a lot of your very nasty side and it's nothing to be proud of.:roll:
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
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barney ,

That's why those four psychos getting off is a real slap in the face of anyone with a shred of understanding of what civic duty and honour are.
Just my observation after living in Canada 40 years ; Majority of Canadians "travel" in packs and only few know what civic duty and honor is .
 

china

Time Out
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Canada blocking Taser investigation: Poland

Canada blocking Taser investigation: Poland




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Jon MurrayZofia Cisowski, mother of Robert Dziekanski, cries at a press conference called by the Canadian Polish Congress. Poland wants to launch its own investigation into the 2007 death of Robert Dziekanski ...

PARIS - Poland wants to launch its own investigation into the 2007 death of Robert Dziekanski but is being blocked by the unilateral suspension by Canada of a co-operation treaty, the Polish embassy in Ottawa said Thursday.
The decision to suspend the agreement was made shortly after Canadian police, with the co-operation of Polish authorities, went to Poland last year as part of its investigation into the circumstances surrounding the immigrant's death at the Vancouver International Airport.
"As I am aware Canada decided to suspend this agreement, which is not a very encouraging step," Sylwia Domisiewicz, the Polish press and protocol officer, said in an interview Thursday. "And right now we are working on making the Canadian government change its mind and restart judicial cooperation."
She noted that local authorities co-operated fully with Canadian police in Poland last year in accordance with the Canada-Poland treaty on "mutual legal assistance in criminal matters," which was signed and ratified in the mid-1990s.
The two countries do not have an extradition treaty.
The Canadian decision to suspend the treaty means "if we want to proceed here (with a Polish criminal investigation) that's not going to happen."
There was no immediate reaction from the Canadian government on the Polish stance on the issue.
Domisiewicz said in a subsequent e-mail that Polish law gives it the authority to lay charges against the Canadian policemen who Tasered and then wrestled Dziekanski to the ground shortly before he died of a heart attack.
"On the basis of the Polish Criminal Code we have a right to charge persons responsible for death of Polish citizen abroad. This is, I think, a general rule present in a majority of national legal systems."
She said the treaty suspension means Poland is unable to access tapes, transcripts and other evidence being presented at the public inquiry now underway in Vancouver.
Polish prosecutors have sought access to all the documents but "it is not possible until the treaty is reinstated."
At the inquiry on Wednesday lawyer David Butcher, representing one of the RCMP officers involved, filed a motion seeking to prevent transcripts, video, audiotapes and other evidence presented at the inquiry from being released without a court order.
He said he didn't want the material released to the Polish government.
B.C. Attorney-General Wally Oppal has previously expressed concern about Poland's desire to investigate the case.
"I understand their position, that they want to be part of the process," he said in 2007. "The more difficult question is whether they would have any legal authority here to involve themselves in an investigation."
Toronto lawyer Joseph Neuberger said countries can sometimes take over a prosecution of an alleged crime committed on foreign soil in situations such as war crimes and murder.
But he said the Poles don't have a strong case because there is no evidence of criminal intent in the Dziekanski matter. The lack of an extradition treaty makes it even more difficult.
"There would be very great resistance to any surrender of Canadian citizens to face charges in this case."
Dziekanski's death got huge media coverage in Poland after the video appeared showing his last horrific minutes before his heart stopped while being held down by the burly Mounties. The inquiry has been getting sporadic coverage.
Political analyst Andrzej Szeptycki said the public believes Dziekanski died for "no reason," but said the public chatter has dissipated.
"We've talked about it a lot when he was killed. It was some time ago," he said in an e-mail.
"Now Polish media regularly follows the discussion on changing the law on the use of these electric blasters in Canada and in other countries."


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CDNBear

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Canada-Poland treaty on "mutual legal assistance in criminal matters," which was signed and ratified in the mid-1990s.
Which pertains to criminal activities that encompass both Nations. ie; organised crime, extradition and the like. It does not include joint investigations of domestic matters.

That would be like the RCMP demanding to assist in an investigation of a Warsaw Cop shooting at a Warsaw Timmy's...

Get real folks.
 
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Ron in Regina

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No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report

Mountie signalled immigrant to move before Tasering him


By Neal Hall, Canwest News ServiceFebruary 26, 2009
Mountie signalled immigrant to move before Tasering him

VANCOUVER — The lawyer representing the Polish government at the Braidwood
inquiry punched a large hole Thursday in the police justification for using a Taser
against an immigrant at the Vancouver International Airport in 2007.


Richmond RCMP Const. Bill Bentley conceded under vigorous cross-examination that
one of his colleagues could be seen on video using a hand signal to direct Robert
Dziekanski to stand by a counter.

Bentley denied he was part of an RCMP coverup of the circumstances surrounding
Dziekanski’s death, which made headlines around the world.


A day earlier, Bentley testified he feared for his safety after Dziekanski disobeyed
a police command, threw up his arms in the air and appeared to walk away from
the officers, which he saw as an act of defiance.


But lawyer Don Rosenbloom, representing the Polish government, took Bentley
through an amateur video of the incident frame by frame, pointing out that
Dziekanski, after “shrugging,” is directed by another officer, RCMP Cpl. Benjamin
Robinson, to stand over by a counter.


Dziekanski does so and is surrounded by the four uniformed officers. When
Dziekanski grabbed a stapler off the counter and swung it in front of him, Bentley
pulled out his police baton.


At the same time, RCMP Const. Kwesi Millington fired his Taser at Dziekanski, who
was exhausted after leaving Poland about 30 hours earlier.


Rosenbloom asked the officer if he thought he and his colleagues handled the
situation inappropriately.


“No, I don’t think we did,” Bentley told the inquiry, which is probing the death of
Dziekanski on Oct. 14, 2007.


The witness said he thought Dziekanski was only Tasered twice. He didn’t realize
the Taser was fired five times for a total of 31 seconds, although the probes may
not have connected to Dziekanski’s body the entire time.


He recalled the first shot failed to cause Dziekanski to fall, so Robinson told
Millington: “Hit him again.”


But Bentley conceded when the video was played, Dziekanski falls to the ground
screaming after six seconds.


“So the second Taser shot was not necessary,” Rosenbloom suggested.


“Yes, perhaps,” Bentley replied. He said under further questioning that his initial
police statement was erroneous when he stated two other officers brought down
Dziekanski because he was “fighting through” being Tasered.


The lawyer pointed out that Dziekanski had no voluntary control of his muscles as
he fell as he was Tasered.


Bentley said Dziekanski’s screaming and the look on his face suggested he was
“fighting through it.”


Rosenbloom suggested the look on Dziekanski face and his screaming could have
been caused by the extreme pain of the Taser.


It could be both. It depends how you interpret it,” Bentley replied.


The witness agreed he was aware during his Taser training in 2007 that the RCMP
policy was that “multiple deployment or continuous cycling could be hazardous to
the subject” and Taser shocks should not exceed 20 seconds.


Initially, when Dziekanski slipped into unconsciousness seconds after he was
Tasered, he thought the man might be faking it, the witness said. “But when he
turned blue, I realized it wasn’t an act.”


Asked by Rosenbloom if he had ever discussed the incident with the three other
Mounties involved, Bentley said he did — at a critical incident debriefing weeks
after the incident. He couldn’t recall the date but it might have occurred after the
amateur video was publicly released, he said.


A police psychologist attended, along with two other officers, including Richmond
RCMP Cpl. Nycki Basra, Bentley added.


“Everyone gave their version of events,” he said of the four officers, adding they
talked about their feelings caused by the incident.


Commission counsel Art Vertlieb later arose to tell commissioner Thomas
Braidwood, a retired judge, that it was the first time he had heard of the
debriefing and asked the RCMP to produce any notes or record of the meeting.


Earlier in the day, under questioning by Walter Kosteckyj, the lawyer representing
Dziekanski’s mother, Bentley denied he was involved in a coverup.


He testified his recollection of the events leading to Dziekanski’s death changed
after seeing the amateur video on Nov. 14, 2007, so he contacted police
investigators to give another statement Nov. 22.


“You’ve heard of the CYA principle?” asked Kosteckyj.


“Cover your butt, yes,” Bentley replied. “There was no coverup, if that’s what you’re getting at.”


Bentley said seeing the video “refreshed my memory and I wanted to set the record straight.”


Kosteckyj, a former RCMP officer, suggested it wasn’t good police procedure to arrive at the scene and “blow by” the complainants without talking to them.

“Isn’t it usual to actually go and talk to the complainant?” the lawyer asked the witness.


“There was no urgency,” Kosteckyj continued. “Take some time and find out what’s happening.”


Bentley disagreed, saying the dispatched call of an intoxicated man throwing around luggage and furniture at the airport “sounded urgent and the threat level was fairly high.”


There wasn’t time to talk to the complainants, he said, adding his Mountie colleagues immediately confronted Dziekanski, who could not speak English.

After Dziekanski was hit with the initial Taser jolt, it took police about a minute to handcuff his hands behind his back on the floor.


Bentley said after the man stopped struggling, he went unconscious, so he called for a routine ambulance.


He said he didn’t upgrade the ambulance call to Code 3 — emergency lights and siren — until Dziekanski stopped breathing.


The cause of death of Dziekanski, 40, was listed as “sudden death following restraint.”


He had no drugs or alcohol in his system that night. He had spent about 10 hours in the airport, unable to find his mother.


He had never been on a plane before and came to Canada to live with his mother, who had waited hours at the airport but eventually returned home to Kamloops after being told by officials that her son could not be located.


The Crown announced last December that no charges would be laid against the officers, who were justified in their use of force.


The inquiry will resume Monday with the testimony of Millington, who deployed the Taser.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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A day earlier, Bentley testified he feared for his safety after Dziekanski disobeyed a police command, threw up his arms in the air and appeared to walk away from
the officers, which he saw as an act of defiance.

I suggest this gentleman leave the RCMP, and take up a career more suited to his talents.........say, lingerie sales......at least then he would have replacements close when he peed in his panties.

So outrageous!!!!!
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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I think this was a horrible incident. I also think it highlights the need to remain calm when you're around anyone with weapons.

I accidentally tried to enter Poland illegally in the late 90s. I was 18, going with a bunch of Americans and the girl responsible for checking if we needed visas conveniently forgot I was Canadian. Americans didn't need visas, Canadians did. When the teenagers doing their military service came on with rifles and a German Shepperd, I didn't think I'd have a problem. Then they asked me for my visa..... I didn't have one. They clearly didn't speak English, but pointing the rifle at me and gesturing out the door was clear enough for me to know I had to get off the train. At a border crossing in the middle of nowhere. With a bunch of 18 year olds with big weapons.... great. Fortunately I was able to get my visa sorted out with my Czech and the older border guard speaking Polish. It took about 3 hours, we missed the train and were stuck there till the next one came at 2am. But, we were all alive so I couldn't complain. Made it to Krakow at 6am instead of 2 pm the previous day, but had a nice holiday from then on. It was that year abroad that I learned to NEVER argue with border guards or immigration or cops. I don't get angry, loud, nothing. It's not worth it. You can always make a complaint later, but you have to survive the initial meeting.
 

tracy

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I suggest this gentleman leave the RCMP, and take up a career more suited to his talents.........say, lingerie sales......at least then he would have replacements close when he peed in his panties.

So outrageous!!!!!

You ever see women at Nordstom's annual sale? The lingerie department is MUCH more dangerous than Vancouver's airport IMO. You don't want to get between women and $80 bras on sale for $40!

Those officers should be ashamed of what they did.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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I suggest this gentleman leave the RCMP, and take up a career more suited to his talents.........say, lingerie sales......at least then he would have replacements close when he peed in his panties.

So outrageous!!!!!

The longer this thing goes on the worse it gets for the police. How the **** do they expect an order to be obeyed by someone who can't understand the language? Someone with an IQ of 3 would be able to figure that one out. It's small consolation but I hope the mother is awarded about $10 million dollars to come out of someones' wages - how about a 50/50 split between the cops and airport personnel?
 

Ron in Regina

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No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report

My issue with this latest bit of testimony is the statement, "“multiple deployment
or continuous cycling could be hazardous to the subject” and Taser shocks
should not exceed 20 seconds."

Try this yourselves. Using YouTube and Google, find Taser training videos where
the Police actually get Tasered during training (many departments wont even allow
this for liability and safety reasons) to get an idea of the duration of the shock
that an officer in training receives, if and shock is received at all. It's NEVER a
multiple deployment, and it's usually about A HALF OF A SECOND in duration.
Hmm...can anyone else find an example of any video anywhere that can
contradict what I'm seeing?
 

Spade

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Nov 18, 2008
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Watching bits of the testimony in the Dziekanski taser inquiry is like peering though a worm hole into a parallel universe. It's absolutely unbelievable!
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Regina, Saskatchewan
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report

My issue with this latest bit of testimony is the statement, "“multiple deployment
or continuous cycling could be hazardous to the subject” and Taser shocks
should not exceed 20 seconds."

Try this yourselves. Using YouTube and Google, find Taser training videos where
the Police actually get Tasered during training (many departments wont even allow
this for liability and safety reasons) to get an idea of the duration of the shock
that an officer in training receives, if and shock is received at all. It's NEVER a
multiple deployment, and it's usually about A HALF OF A SECOND in duration.
Hmm...can anyone else find an example of any video anywhere that can
contradict what I'm seeing?


If anyone can find an example to contradict what I'm seeing with
respect to this "safe" and "non-lethal" device, can you please
provide a link? 8O
 

barney

Electoral Member
Aug 1, 2007
336
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You obviously are unaware of the training these officers have.

Oh yes, obviously. Sorry, I didn't realize you were an expert in law enforcement.

...Moving on.

They are trained to take a situation that is out of control and get it under control (ASAP) by the safest means possible and since the RCMP (as well as most of the police forces in North America) consider the taser as safe, that is what they used. They followed their training...period.

You are talking about three different things: one is situational awareness, threat assessment and appropriate response. That's putting aside their responsibility to the subject (i.e. Dziekanski).

The situation was: subject a in state of exhaustion and confusion in a confined area of the airport.

The threat was: initially, minimal (read: easily resolvable). Only once the officers antagonized Dziekanski did he become "a threat" (i.e. he reacted negatively to being surrounded by four hostile police officers by picking up a stapler).

Appropriate response: rule #1 in a situation like this is, do not antagonize. This means move in very slow, individually, using non-threatening language and tone, and keep communication strict but positive (i.e. create appearance of familiarity without reducing seriousness of situation). If that fails--which it rarely does when followed--then engage in quick tackle, disarm (i.e. take the stapler away from him) and restrain.

At no point in the above is the situation ever "out of control".

What did they do? First they strutted into the situation with an air of not giving a $hit, virtually ignoring the situation around them. They quickly moved into Dziekanski's area, spoke to him as they would a person in a stable psychological state, did so in an overly-authoritative manner and were already beginning to surround him (blatently aggressive behaviour). Upon getting a negative response from Dziekanski (i.e. he withdrew from conversation), they immediatly became extremely aggressive and took up threatening positions around him. He reacted in a minimally defensive manner. They reacted by tasering him repeatedly and then tackling him once he was down.

Additonally, they used an excessive restaining method, meant to be used only on cases where the traditional method is ineffective. And when he displayed signs of losing vitals (which should not have been unexpected given the circumstances), they responded indifferently (i.e. without haste).

They dealt with Dziekanski as they would the worst kind of violent criminal (where one is sometimes tempted to ignore procedure due to the extremely hostile nature of the suspect). This was very clearly not the case here so their decision to act as they did is at the very least one of extreme irresponsibiliy and negligence. Less forgivingly but just as justifiably, it is a case of manslaughter, if not 2nd degree murder.

As to the safety of the taser, the assumption has never been that it is completely safe, as in a replacement for conventional immobilization methods (even if promoters of the product may say otherwise). Knowledge of issues with the taser (particularly those concerning the danger of cardiac arrest) most certainly extends to RCMP officers. If they chose to disregard those concerns then that is not a legitimate reason to clear them of inappropriate use of the weapon, which they not only chose to employ on someone in Dziekanski's physical state, but then did so repeatedly.

In short, they did not follow their training...period. ;-)

Just my observation after living in Canada 40 years ; Majority of Canadians "travel" in packs and only few know what civic duty and honor is .

Kinda defeats the whole point of society if these basics are absent.

Ugh, people...make one want to pull a Dziekanski.
 
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Tyr

Council Member
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You tend not to hang out with low lifes. Well - who do you hang out with. You claim that you showed an article to a member of the RCMP who is a friend of yours and who laughed at what you had to show him so I have to assume that either you were dishonest with us (which is what I believed anyway) or that you actually have the honour to have a friend who is a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I still have a tough time believing any member of the Force would hang out with your ilk. I've seen a lot of your very nasty side and it's nothing to be proud of.:roll:

Your personal adullation of me is getting embarassing Island. Please cease.

As for the RCMP.... I don't have the control issues, lack of self-esteem, confidence or self worth they have hence we have nothing in common. Why would I havng out with a glorified security guard ?
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Sitting at my laptop
Watching bits of the testimony in the Dziekanski taser inquiry is like peering though a worm hole into a parallel universe. It's absolutely unbelievable!

Watching the first two cops testify was unbelievable.

Cop #1 lied his butt off and showed no remorse. Squirmed the whole time and could not look anybody in the eye. He's guilty of manslaughter and he knows it. He was desperately trying to save what was left of his sorry butt

Cop #2 Told the truth (possibly because he was the youngest) and showed remorse. Hopefully he will only lose his job or at worst be exiled to Ellesmere Island to taser wayward walrus'