Spiritual Anarchy

[SirJosephPorter]

The truth is the truth.

Cannuck, well, yes and no. What many people do is they confuse scientific truth with philosophical, religious truth. In the case of science, truth is truth, it is objective, it does not depend upon the observer (until you get into the deep, obscure scientific phenomena, such as relativity or quantum mechanics).

Thus when we say that sun rises in the East, or if you drop something from a window it will fall to the ground, it is objective truth, and anybody who denies it will do so at his own peril (e.g. if by denying the truth he walks off a window ledge, he will get hurt, nobody else). If somebody denies the scientific, objective truths, he will pay for it.

Philosophical truths on the other hand, are purely subjective; depend upon the observer, upon the person, upon the circumstances etc. Thus, is there a God? And if there is, which is the true God? Is there an afterlife? We don’t know, there cannot be an objective truth in these matters.

The problem with a religious fundamentalist (of both Muslim and Christian variety) is that he regards religious truth the same way he regards scientific truth. Thus his interpretation of Bible, or Koran is the only true one, anybody who disagrees with him is an infidel, a disciple of Devil and deserves to die.

But we have to be careful to differentiate between the scientific, objective truths and religious, philosophical truths.

 

[darkbeaver]

What is is truth! There are no absolutes. Just look at science. There have been many scientific laws that have been replaced because they no longer hold true or are no longer relevant.

Our material reality is actually a computer construct based on a belief system that only takes a limited amount of data into consideration. I hold that to be true. I can scientifically prove it but few would accept that because they are afraid that if I am right, they might disappear, vaporize or otherwise cease to exist. But I am still here banging on this keyboard.

Once our counciousness is partially detatched temporarily from the whole into the construct of individuality we are charged with only one directive and that is to selfrealize through awareness that same initiating whole (the one. In Castenedas books somewhere I saw written the purpose of life which was described as worship of that oneness through awareness. The purpose of sentient beings is described as the method of the whole for selfappreciation and that is our ultimate purpose to worship the whole through continual rediscovery. In other words the whole cannot experiance itself except through the false objectivity temporarily manifested in it's sentient creations, we are it's mirrors.

 

[Cliffy]

The only thing I would ad to that, SirJoseph, is that the objective truth of science is relative to our concept of third dimensional reality. Beyond that it has no relevance. More and more we are finding that the rules of quantum mechanics and relativity are relevant to all of the universe and I see a day in the not too distant future when we will understand life/truth/reality completely different than we do now.

For many years I was involved in shamanism with our aboriginal people. I experienced phenomenon that were outside our "normal" perception. I was curious as to why a culture that is different from ours could experience reality in such a dramatically different way than we normally do. The deeper I investigated the more it became clear to me that it had more to do with their belief system - they believed it was possible, it was part of there reality, we don't believe it is part of our reality because we are so objective.

In quantum theory, the energy comprising what we call matter is influenced by the belief and will of the observing consciousness. Thus a scientific experiment that once was held to be law because it always produced the same results, now could be changed by the belief and will of the new experimenter. The shaman uses the same principles to alter reality, influence events and heal the sick. Although they may not understand quantum theory, they have been using it for thousands of years to do the work they do.

It is what the mythical stories of Jesus walking on water, raising the dead and healing the blind was trying to tell us - that we can do those things and more. He supposedly said that if we thought what he was doing was miraculous, a day would come when we would accomplish far more than what he was able to do. I believe we are on the doorstep of that realization.

 

[Cliffy]

Once our counciousness is partially detatched temporarily from the whole into the construct of individuality we are charged with only one directive and that is to selfrealize through awareness that same initiating whole (the one. In Castenedas books somewhere I saw written the purpose of life which was described as worship of that oneness through awareness. The purpose of sentient beings is described as the method of the whole for selfappreciation and that is our ultimate purpose to worship the whole through continual rediscovery. In other words the whole cannot experiance itself except through the false objectivity temporarily manifested in it's sentient creations, we are it's mirrors.

Yes, as it were, the Universe experiences life through the sensory data of its creation. The Universe, as a whole, is a conscious entity and all that is within it is various aspects of itself experiencing what it is. Everything down to the smallest experiences what it is and the Universe is the sum total of all those experiences, just as our consciousness is the sum total of all our various parts. But, the consciousness of the Universe is much more than the sum total, and so are we.

 

[darkbeaver]

The only thing I would ad to that, SirJoseph, is that the objective truth of science is relative to our concept of third dimensional reality. Beyond that it has no relevance. More and more we are finding that the rules of quantum mechanics and relativity are relevant to all of the universe and I see a day in the not too distant future when we will understand life/truth/reality completely different than we do now.

For many years I was involved in shamanism with our aboriginal people. I experienced phenomenon that were outside our "normal" perception. I was curious as to why a culture that is different from ours could experience reality in such a dramatically different way than we normally do. The deeper I investigated the more it became clear to me that it had more to do with their belief system - they believed it was possible, it was part of there reality, we don't believe it is part of our reality because we are so objective.

In quantum theory, the energy comprising what we call matter is influenced by the belief and will of the observing consciousness. Thus a scientific experiment that once was held to be law because it always produced the same results, now could be changed by the belief and will of the new experimenter. The shaman uses the same principles to alter reality, influence events and heal the sick. Although they may not understand quantum theory, they have been using it for thousands of years to do the work they do.

It is what the mythical stories of Jesus walking on water, raising the dead and healing the blind was trying to tell us - that we can do those things and more. He supposedly said that if we thought what he was doing was miraculous, a day would come when we would accomplish far more than what he was able to do. I believe we are on the doorstep of that realization.

The anthropological studies require suspension of preconcieved ideas about what is real and not. While reading about the Mayans one time the author whomever it was stressed that many practices and beliefs must be appreciated as if they were alien because in fact they are totally alien to classic western thinking.

 

[Spade]

In Defence of Cliff

Several posters have gratuitously slagged Cliff's assertion that there is no objective truth, even, I must say, one whose title would under some circumstances indicate higher social status. I will comment on social constructs later.

Let's begin...

Someone (unnamed out of politeness) asserted 2 + 2 = 4 is truth. Well, it's rather a model. You see the mathematical symbol 2 does not represent a truth external to the individual, but rather it is a representation (quite arbitrary, as some older posters here probably learnt ii) of an equivalence class. Twoness is a generalization of mental images of two apples, two cliffs, two robins, two petites pointes, and so on! But, because 2 is a symbolic representation of an equivalence class itself dependent on the "human" mind (I used quotation marks because I cannot comment on a bee's construction of "number") we cannot say 2 is independent of the "observer." I will, out of deference to those whose eyes are beginning to glaze, not continue further to argue on the subjectivity of 2 + 2 = 4. It is subjective at best, a mathematical "fact" of an constructed "internal" reality.

Another poster, nobly trumpeted that the sun rises in the east. Well! It only rises "in the east" at my latitudes but twice - on the equinoxes (except that isn't even "true" because of refraction). Every other day it rises north of east or south of east. But these generalizations (Please see twoness in the previous paragraph) are mental constructs. I dare say if you said "East" to a Russian who spoke no English he'd look at you in bewilderment! I will not get into a linguistic discussion of whether "East" and "Vostok" are exactly the same. Humpff!

The same poster maintains that in "truth" an object "falls" when one "drops" it. Here, I used quotation marks to confirm to those whose "minds" see the comedy of this "fact," that their amusement is well grounded. Let me illustrate for the "Sirs" who did not grasp this immediately by means of a "mental" experiment.

I am outside. It is snowing. My neighbour Henry's car is stuck in a drift. I go over to the rear of his vehicle. I yell at Henry that I will push. We begin and the neighbourhood fills with the sounds of curses and spinning tires. Henry's wife opens the screen door and shouts, "What the **** is Spade doing?" Henry shouts back, "He's pushing!" Is that truth, or is Henry simply repeating the word "push" from my earlier spoken offer to help? So you see that similarly the word "drops" is a mental image similar to "falls." Constructs not independent of the gentle reader. To beat this to death, "drops" suggests "falls." To say "a dropped object falls" is like saying "a red ball is red." Simply verbal nonsense!

I could go on, but my wife says lunch is ready. Hmmm, I wonder if that is true?

 

[Spade]

PS to Cliff!
Thanks for telling the rumball of Candotcalm to go suck himself.

 

[Cannuck]

The truth is the truth.

In the case of science, truth is truth, it is objective, it does not depend upon the observer (until you get into the deep, obscure scientific phenomena, such as relativity or quantum mechanics).

And that is the point. Once you get into the deep, obscure scientific phenomena, such as relativity or quantum mechanics, what science believed was "truth" may not be. That is one of the reasons I get a laugh out of those (on both sides of the debate) that wish to or need to separate religion and science.

Jesus was reported to have walked on water. Scientifically speaking (quantum physics), it may have been possible. Not being able to walk on water is only objective truth because our current understanding suggest it is objective truth.

I think you believe that what you are observing is the truth. I don't necessarily agree.

 

[Spade]

Jesus was reported to have walked on water.

I think you believe that what you are observing is the truth. I don't necessarily agree.

You're right, Cannuck. There is an underlying truth - metaphor - in myths such as walking on water. Of course, it must have been hard water.

 

[Cannuck]

...it must have been hard water.

Or, the experience projected by Jesus and those around him was that of him walking on water. That is what quantum mechanics is now suggesting may be a possibility.

 

[Spade]

Cannuck,
Belief is an internal "reality." Everyone's construction of that reality is different. I know this is hard for you to accept, but even though we are related, we do not believe in the same things.
Your anarchist cousin,
Spade

 

[Cannuck]

Cannuck,
Belief is an internal "reality." Everyone's construction of that reality is different. I know this is hard for you to accept

On the contrary. It's easy for me to accept. It's what I've been saying. I know this is hard for you to accept. Perhaps you should abstain from commenting on this thread if you are having a tough time following along...or perhaps, if you wish, you can PM me and I can walk you through it at your own pace.

 

[Spade]

It is impossible to know another man's thoughts.
Spade of the Prairies

How dare you tell me we agree!

 

[Cannuck]

Unless it is.

 

[Cliffy]

Or, the experience projected by Jesus and those around him was that of him walking on water. That is what quantum mechanics is now suggesting may be a possibility.

Throughout history there have been shaman and yogis who have done similar, if not greater, accomplishments that have been attributed to Jesus. Many of these accomplishments have been recorded or observed by credible observers. I personally have observed a few. At the time I thought I was having a "mystical" experience but on further reflection, what I observed was someone who could bend the rules of the "reality" program.

Just as in the Matrix movie, "there is no spoon", the rules of the program, once you realize it is just a program, can be altered, manipulated or bent. The observer can bend the program to their will, all it takes is practice and discipline. All the principle articulated in The Matrix (first movie) are valid principles of quantum mechanics and relativity that can be applied to every day activity. All it really takes is a suspension in belief in the validity of the Matrix program (the program you were indoctrinated into from birth).