Harper: Worst economic steward in Canada's history?
- Thread starter elevennevele
- Start date
Steven (I won't run a deficit) Harper...
What lies will Harper tell when he tries to engineer the next election for that majority he wants? What other lies will the Conservative apologists on here allow themselves to defend?
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What lies will Harper tell when he tries to engineer the next election for that majority he wants? What other lies will the Conservative apologists on here allow themselves to defend?
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While Harper has to take some responsibility for what transpires under "his watch"- the man isn't God and doesn't have much control over a lot of things- somewhat arrogant, I will grant you, incompetent- NO WAY.
How can a person go from a claim of, 'this government won't run deficits', to then telling us we will face 'very significant deficits' (40 billion of additional red ink for our kids to inherit)? How can a person lead us with the expectations of surpluses and then shortly after an election, tell us they are going to deficit spend to the tune of 40 billion dollars?
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How can a person go from 'no further stimulus in the works' to suddenly a bail-out into deficit territory that is going to make the history books?
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How can a person go from stating this country is in a strong economic position (pre-election) while the country faces the biggest job losses in 17 years? Then continue to fabricate that the country is in a strong economic position until now, where in 2009 we are updated to the fact that the country posting the most job losses in 26 years? -They were given indications and did nothing to stem the bleeding-
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How is it that a person like Stephen Harper can sing the tune of we won't run a deficit, our economy is strong, there is nothing to worry about, go buy stocks, and then right after the election give interviews where he says he wouldn't rule out a depression. A 'depression'? Now it's a depression?!
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Stephen Harper is either so completely incompetent, or so utterly a liar. Worst still, the truth may in fact be elements of both.
The timing of the flip-flops where Stephen Harper finally begins revealing the truth facing Canadians coincides with the completion of a wasteful election (breaking his own laws to call it), and the threat of the outcome of a confidence vote he put forth to play political games until he discovered the outcome.
Either the person is not fit to govern this country, or can not be trusted to govern this country. Anybody who has any sense for their kid's future needs to take this into consideration for when the time comes to do something about this.
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How can a person go from 'no further stimulus in the works' to suddenly a bail-out into deficit territory that is going to make the history books?
.
How can a person go from stating this country is in a strong economic position (pre-election) while the country faces the biggest job losses in 17 years? Then continue to fabricate that the country is in a strong economic position until now, where in 2009 we are updated to the fact that the country posting the most job losses in 26 years? -They were given indications and did nothing to stem the bleeding-
.
How is it that a person like Stephen Harper can sing the tune of we won't run a deficit, our economy is strong, there is nothing to worry about, go buy stocks, and then right after the election give interviews where he says he wouldn't rule out a depression. A 'depression'? Now it's a depression?!
.
Stephen Harper is either so completely incompetent, or so utterly a liar. Worst still, the truth may in fact be elements of both.
The timing of the flip-flops where Stephen Harper finally begins revealing the truth facing Canadians coincides with the completion of a wasteful election (breaking his own laws to call it), and the threat of the outcome of a confidence vote he put forth to play political games until he discovered the outcome.
Either the person is not fit to govern this country, or can not be trusted to govern this country. Anybody who has any sense for their kid's future needs to take this into consideration for when the time comes to do something about this.
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You know what is a funny joke to this? I heard many supposed part time jobs that were counted for this touted gain in September came from the temporary boost of hired hands for the federal election Harper called on Oct. 14. Perhaps that is what $300 million in taxpayers dollars gets us in temporary job creation.
The parliamentary budget watchdog is warning that we are heading into deep deficit possibly as much as $105 billion. $105 billion dollars of debt for working Canadians and their children.
Many economic concerns were raised with this government during good times. They were told of the issues facing our forest industry. They were told of the issues facing our manufacturing. They were told against taking some of the measures they implemented regarding our economy and were given concern with their spending measures. This government is on record as huge spenders during good times.
In good times they stripped us of our 3 billion rainy day fund set aside to weather a crisis. No reason for getting rid of it other than ideological on their part. They spent frivolously and also blew the 13 billion in surplus monies. In good times they went and cut programs unnecessarily and ballooned the government advertising budget.
They did this in good times.
It is 2009. Now with bad times under this government we are being told that they will spend us into a deficit that will make the Canadian history books. We are told this in contrast to Harper's claim that his government would not run a deficit.
"...over the next half decade, the federal government is at risk of racking up as much new debt as it had paid off over the past 11 years – effectively wiping out what Ottawa has achieved since 1998."
Many economic concerns were raised with this government during good times. They were told of the issues facing our forest industry. They were told of the issues facing our manufacturing. They were told against taking some of the measures they implemented regarding our economy and were given concern with their spending measures. This government is on record as huge spenders during good times.
In good times they stripped us of our 3 billion rainy day fund set aside to weather a crisis. No reason for getting rid of it other than ideological on their part. They spent frivolously and also blew the 13 billion in surplus monies. In good times they went and cut programs unnecessarily and ballooned the government advertising budget.
They did this in good times.
It is 2009. Now with bad times under this government we are being told that they will spend us into a deficit that will make the Canadian history books. We are told this in contrast to Harper's claim that his government would not run a deficit.
"...over the next half decade, the federal government is at risk of racking up as much new debt as it had paid off over the past 11 years – effectively wiping out what Ottawa has achieved since 1998."
I have my worries about Harper representing Canada when Obama comes to visit ....How can we trust him to do what is best for all canadians and not just his oil interests?...Hope the door is left open during the discussion to ensure transparentcy and accountability....for more such spew...Check out....Green/technology...thread
Oh ye Harper the most charismatic Prime Minister Canada has ever had.
I am glad that both Harper and Flirty are consulting the Premiers, to get financial advice because the Conservatives know dick about the necessary economic know how they need to have in order to govern the country properly.
At least if the coalition is put on hold for the time being, it sure woke up the HARPER BONE HEADS forcing them to OPEN THE DOOR TO FINANCIAL DISCUSSIONS WITH THE PREMIERS.
Before the coalition was in the air, Harper was behind closed doors playing Chicken Little God. He is a phony and I am glad the polls are telling Harper that his days are numbered.
And oh, we are up for an embracing moment to see Harper pretend that he has any Power or say when in fact Harper is on record plagiarizing for Bush on lies about Iraq, delivering a used speech. That is what OBAMA campaigned on to rid the phony politics completely out. Lying and cheating by a Government it is bad for the people and Harper Conservatives are all about that.
I am glad that both Harper and Flirty are consulting the Premiers, to get financial advice because the Conservatives know dick about the necessary economic know how they need to have in order to govern the country properly.
At least if the coalition is put on hold for the time being, it sure woke up the HARPER BONE HEADS forcing them to OPEN THE DOOR TO FINANCIAL DISCUSSIONS WITH THE PREMIERS.
Before the coalition was in the air, Harper was behind closed doors playing Chicken Little God. He is a phony and I am glad the polls are telling Harper that his days are numbered.
And oh, we are up for an embracing moment to see Harper pretend that he has any Power or say when in fact Harper is on record plagiarizing for Bush on lies about Iraq, delivering a used speech. That is what OBAMA campaigned on to rid the phony politics completely out. Lying and cheating by a Government it is bad for the people and Harper Conservatives are all about that.
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Canada's economic problems have virtually nothing to do with Harper. Using a few years worth of data is awfully silly.
Looking at productivity trends is even more useless. Productivity growth always slows just before a recession, and always accelerates coming out of a recession. That's because employment is a lagging indicator, meaning that expansion stops before hiring does and begins before economic growth resumes.
Nor is the recession the "fault" of the Liberals. The world is going through a bad recession. Canada is not immune to global trends.
Looking at productivity trends is even more useless. Productivity growth always slows just before a recession, and always accelerates coming out of a recession. That's because employment is a lagging indicator, meaning that expansion stops before hiring does and begins before economic growth resumes.
Nor is the recession the "fault" of the Liberals. The world is going through a bad recession. Canada is not immune to global trends.
It is not about Harper's responsibility regarding the problems in the USA, or economic cycles of growth and recession. That is a terribly poor excuse for the mismanagement we see today.
It is about the weak position Harper put Canada in to face the current economic crisis.
It is about his inaction during good times when economic issues facing Canada were brought to his attention while he still had a surplus to work with. It is about how he spent the monies his government inherited now leaving us terribly exposed. It is about how Harper did away with government fiscal management which ironically allowed him to inherit a very advantageous situation of surpluses.
It's about a Prime Minister who tells Canadians he will not run a deficit prior to and during an election that he called by way of breaking his own parliamentary laws and now takes us into record deficit spending. Until the opposition held him to account and put his job at risk he was on a path telling us no stimulus was needed. Harper had no vision, no plan, no direction for this country until his hand was forced and he was made to reveal a more honest economic picture for this country. That picture being suddenly different like day to night.
In order to lead in this tough economic time I'm sure everyone can agree that the people of this country must have a sense of trust in the leadership in order for there to be confidence moving forward. There is little reason for us to trust Harper to manage this situation for the betterment of our country.
We can't trust Harper but we are suppose to feel comfortable in having him spend an additional $40 billion of deficit spending on top of what the parliamentary budget watchdog is warning of another $40 billion in deficits prior to such stimulus?
We are suppose to feel comfortable with Harper doing the spending when he assured us there was going to be zero deficit?
There is simply is too much a stretch in both reality and truth regarding this government.
Before reaching this financial position our country is in, Harper focused little regarding an economy that is sustainable beyond oil and resource revenue. For today's sacrifice and significant burden placed on the people of Canada such stimulus should be spent in ways that will benefit generations to come who will undoubtedly be inheriting this mess for their future.
Our kids.
If this stimulus is just spent in a way that simply satisfies short term goals and optics then the Canadian taxpayer is getting fleeced.
It is about the weak position Harper put Canada in to face the current economic crisis.
It is about his inaction during good times when economic issues facing Canada were brought to his attention while he still had a surplus to work with. It is about how he spent the monies his government inherited now leaving us terribly exposed. It is about how Harper did away with government fiscal management which ironically allowed him to inherit a very advantageous situation of surpluses.
It's about a Prime Minister who tells Canadians he will not run a deficit prior to and during an election that he called by way of breaking his own parliamentary laws and now takes us into record deficit spending. Until the opposition held him to account and put his job at risk he was on a path telling us no stimulus was needed. Harper had no vision, no plan, no direction for this country until his hand was forced and he was made to reveal a more honest economic picture for this country. That picture being suddenly different like day to night.
In order to lead in this tough economic time I'm sure everyone can agree that the people of this country must have a sense of trust in the leadership in order for there to be confidence moving forward. There is little reason for us to trust Harper to manage this situation for the betterment of our country.
We can't trust Harper but we are suppose to feel comfortable in having him spend an additional $40 billion of deficit spending on top of what the parliamentary budget watchdog is warning of another $40 billion in deficits prior to such stimulus?
We are suppose to feel comfortable with Harper doing the spending when he assured us there was going to be zero deficit?
There is simply is too much a stretch in both reality and truth regarding this government.
Before reaching this financial position our country is in, Harper focused little regarding an economy that is sustainable beyond oil and resource revenue. For today's sacrifice and significant burden placed on the people of Canada such stimulus should be spent in ways that will benefit generations to come who will undoubtedly be inheriting this mess for their future.
Our kids.
If this stimulus is just spent in a way that simply satisfies short term goals and optics then the Canadian taxpayer is getting fleeced.
You're not interested in any dispassionate analysis of the Harper government. You are interested in taking political shots. At least be honest about it.
The first two posts in this thread are about productivity and unemployment that you either blamed directly or were implying that Harper's minority government was somehow responsible, as if either statistic had anything to do with Ottawa. Perhaps we should also ascribe Canada's multi-decade low in unemployment and soaring Canadian dollar to Harper to, since both occurred on his watch. Fair is fair, after all.
Zero deficit? Have you any idea what is going on? Business fell off a cliff in the fourth quarter. We literally had companies tell us that business stopped dead in its tracks on specific days. The United States is going to have its worst quarter since the early 80s. Capital markets are more stressed than any time since the Depression. And you are admonishing him for saying he'd run zero deficits?
Did Harper downplay the problems in the economy during the election? Probably. But I didn't hear the Liberals or the NDP telling everyone the economy was hell going into a handbasket. And the Liberals and the NDP would be beyond irresponsible to argue that the country should run balanced budgets during the worst economic crisis in nearly a century.
Leftist economist and Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman is arguing that we should run massive deficits and not worry about it until we have recovered sufficiently. You think $40 billion is a lot? That's about 2% of GDP. Virtually every industrialized country in the world is going to run a bigger deficit relative to their economy. Most countries ran that before this recession. The US is going to run a trillion dollar deficit, or nearly 7% of their economy. Running a deficit during a recession is why you run surpluses during expansion. That's the point!
If you think Herbert Hoover and RB Bennett were good leaders, then yes, we should run zero deficits. But you are decidedly in the minority on that one.
The first two posts of my thread were dated Sep 17th, 2008 prior to the election and well before what we know about the economy now. That should tell you something.
The postings I made should you tell you that there were concerns to be addressed much earlier whether or not you feel government has any role to play in influencing the direction of the county's financial state. I'm not going to even debate you on that.
Sure you could tell me that all those economic trends I posted referencing Stats Canada where a coincidence in corresponding to Harper's time in leadership, but then such statistics would at least suggest that problems were apparent well before we get hit with a statement from the parliamentary budget officer that we are going to face a $105 billion dollar deficit when Harper and his government told us we would have zero deficit. Rather all this time they've been feeding us contradiction. That is either incompetence or deceit.
You in fact are illustrating my argument further against Harper by referencing my earlier posting and if you feel I can't have an opinion that is fluid with new revelations that come to light, then I'm really sorry you feel that way, but for myself I make no apologies.
Surely in government Harper would have had better resources to help him than me and my slow internet connection. Yet I found myself arguing about economic concerns at a time while Harper was telling the country, don't worry, everything is just peachy. So they were really doing nothing about issues, nor did they have anything really planned to address any grave economic concerns during and for the future.
Maybe they would never even have bothered to let us know we were going into such red ink if Harper's job wasn't suddenly threatened with a requirement that he produce an actual comprehensive budget that finally addressed reality in some sort of way.
It was pretty clear what Harper told us during the election and while economic warnings were going off. Harper told us and that his government would never run a deficit.
The postings I made should you tell you that there were concerns to be addressed much earlier whether or not you feel government has any role to play in influencing the direction of the county's financial state. I'm not going to even debate you on that.
Sure you could tell me that all those economic trends I posted referencing Stats Canada where a coincidence in corresponding to Harper's time in leadership, but then such statistics would at least suggest that problems were apparent well before we get hit with a statement from the parliamentary budget officer that we are going to face a $105 billion dollar deficit when Harper and his government told us we would have zero deficit. Rather all this time they've been feeding us contradiction. That is either incompetence or deceit.
You in fact are illustrating my argument further against Harper by referencing my earlier posting and if you feel I can't have an opinion that is fluid with new revelations that come to light, then I'm really sorry you feel that way, but for myself I make no apologies.
Surely in government Harper would have had better resources to help him than me and my slow internet connection. Yet I found myself arguing about economic concerns at a time while Harper was telling the country, don't worry, everything is just peachy. So they were really doing nothing about issues, nor did they have anything really planned to address any grave economic concerns during and for the future.
Maybe they would never even have bothered to let us know we were going into such red ink if Harper's job wasn't suddenly threatened with a requirement that he produce an actual comprehensive budget that finally addressed reality in some sort of way.
It was pretty clear what Harper told us during the election and while economic warnings were going off. Harper told us and that his government would never run a deficit.
Sorry, I have to highlight this from your post.
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Probably? He told us in no uncertain terms that our economy was strong, and that this government would not run a deficit and it was steady as she goes. This was during a very recent election which means Canadians would be giving him the vote on such trust regarding these expectations.
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By the way, just keep the arguments on the substance of my posts, ok? I'm confident in my integrity on here. I don't need to debate that with anyone.
I don't know why you want to defend Harper, and I really don't care. It's really not by place to question your motives, only the substance of your defense.
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Probably? He told us in no uncertain terms that our economy was strong, and that this government would not run a deficit and it was steady as she goes. This was during a very recent election which means Canadians would be giving him the vote on such trust regarding these expectations.
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By the way, just keep the arguments on the substance of my posts, ok? I'm confident in my integrity on here. I don't need to debate that with anyone.
I don't know why you want to defend Harper, and I really don't care. It's really not by place to question your motives, only the substance of your defense.
And do you think it is strong now? Do you think they should be balancing the budget now?
What do you do when the facts change?
When the writ was dropped, the Canadian economy was fine. It was not going to be fine - which is why I think they called the election - but understand this: there wasn't an economist alive who was predicting the US economy was going to start contracting at a rate of 5%-6% per year.
So the criticism that Harper said he was going to run a balanced budget and then saw the economy fall off a cliff is not serious criticism.
Slowing productivity growth and rising unemployment off multi-decade unemployment lows in no way shape or form signaled what was coming. Unemployment and productivity rise and fall in accordance with the business cycle, and have done so many times since the Depression. It is disingenuous to state that these figures from Sept 17 foretold the economic calamity, and that somehow it is indicative of Harper's competence or incompetence. And I tell you this as someone who was actively betting with real, live money that the economy was, indeed, about to enter a recession.
I'm not going to defend everything any single government does, but to analogize an Internet connection with the resources of the government as somehow figuring out what is happening in the economy now is to completely mis-understand the nature of what is actually occurring. To get all upset about a potential $40 billion or even $100 billion deficit given the extreme stress the economy is under merely demonstrates this further.
Like I said, if you pine for the days of Herbert Hoover and RB Bennett, that's your prerogative, but it would be insane to stick an election promise that could cripple the economy.
Ok Toro, you follow the markets closely and you claim that you recognized economic markers. Please tell us when you think there was an indication of a global economic crisis. Then tell us all when you think Harper should have started to have seriously acted on such indications of a crisis. What time do you think Harper should have begun the process of taking any real action with the Canadian economy?
lol, Harper is only one politician. Want to see stuff about another politician?
read some of these:
Paul Martin student debt - Google Search [and people toss Harper flack about the student debt. Geee, look what he inherited from Martin]
Paul Martin aid terrorist organization - Google Search
The Senior's Benefit and the death of universality
Paul Martin Time: Story Archive
No wonder Martin did a nice job of having a surplus on the budget. He did it at the expense of seniors and students. And gave his rich buddies all sorts of nifty gifts.
Yeah. Harpy's the worst alright. lmao
But this thread is about Harpy. So here's some info about him:
Fact Sheets
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080430.3consent0430/BNStory/National/home
H&R BLOCK Canada - 2007 Tax Law Changes | Content
Canada News Centre - Advanced Search
Pension income splitting
etc etc etc
Definitely he should be tortured to death and then tortured some more, the psychopath. lol
My point? Mone of them are all bad and none of them are all good.
read some of these:
Paul Martin student debt - Google Search [and people toss Harper flack about the student debt. Geee, look what he inherited from Martin]
Paul Martin aid terrorist organization - Google Search
The Senior's Benefit and the death of universality
Paul Martin Time: Story Archive
No wonder Martin did a nice job of having a surplus on the budget. He did it at the expense of seniors and students. And gave his rich buddies all sorts of nifty gifts.
Yeah. Harpy's the worst alright. lmao
But this thread is about Harpy. So here's some info about him:
Fact Sheets
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080430.3consent0430/BNStory/National/home
H&R BLOCK Canada - 2007 Tax Law Changes | Content
Canada News Centre - Advanced Search
Pension income splitting
etc etc etc
Definitely he should be tortured to death and then tortured some more, the psychopath. lol
My point? Mone of them are all bad and none of them are all good.
Sorry Toro - I got to agree with elevennevele.
In one of your posts you state that situations change, and you must change to that situation.
The issue I have with Harper is that the signs were there in September. During the election, he told everyone it was peaches and cream, and that what was happening in the US would NOT effect us here.
Then in November, we tried to sell us a 100 M surplus. Only after the coalition threat came around, did the truth come out - and now we are talking about a 40 B deficit BEFORE any stimulus spending. You believe we spent 40 B in a month?
The signs were there, and they were ignored. Pundits, economists, heck even political rivals talked about the coming recession, and Harper ignored - or ridiculed - them all.
I agree in that there was not much he could have done to prevent the situation. However, a leader would have had a plan, and not been caught unaware. He was either blindsided by the extent of the problem (thus showing his incompetence) or he knew about it, and lied.
In one of your posts you state that situations change, and you must change to that situation.
The issue I have with Harper is that the signs were there in September. During the election, he told everyone it was peaches and cream, and that what was happening in the US would NOT effect us here.
Then in November, we tried to sell us a 100 M surplus. Only after the coalition threat came around, did the truth come out - and now we are talking about a 40 B deficit BEFORE any stimulus spending. You believe we spent 40 B in a month?
The signs were there, and they were ignored. Pundits, economists, heck even political rivals talked about the coming recession, and Harper ignored - or ridiculed - them all.
I agree in that there was not much he could have done to prevent the situation. However, a leader would have had a plan, and not been caught unaware. He was either blindsided by the extent of the problem (thus showing his incompetence) or he knew about it, and lied.
I was shorting the Canadian market - meaning I was betting against it - in January 2008 and I was actively betting against the loonie in 2007. I thought that the housing bubble around the world - including in Canada - would lead to a global recession. What I did not foresee was the speed and severity of the crisis. I did not expect a collapse. That surprised me. But I made money last year. Virtually everyone else I know did not.
Some people knew the problems we faced but very few people saw the collapse coming. Apart from a handful of economists who had been predicting disaster for years, no economist I am aware of predicted what happened. Even the doomsayers - who were eventually right - did not predict the calamity in the fourth quarter.
I'm not going to defend any politician for everything, including the Tories and Harper. I think there are valid criticisms of Harper. And like I said earlier, I'm pretty positive that the reason why they called the election was because they saw a recession coming and wanted to take a shot before it happened. However, virtually no one saw the severity of the contraction. So I cut Harper - and any politician of any political stripe anywhere - a lot of slack for being caught off guard.