Why Catholic isn't Christian.

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Christian.

I would have thought that Dexter would have figured out by now Christians aren't bound by the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

The 10 commandments are the Old Testament laws that still apply.

Oh really? How about Matthew 5:18-19:

Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

On the other hand:

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

There are least a dozen other citations that say all the laws are binding forever, or that only the New Testament rules apply now. Take your pick.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

No where does it support oppression of women, again I think you need to look that word up in the dictionary.

Sure. Read 1 Corinthians 14, paying particular attention to verses 34 and 35. That's where Paul explains that it's shameful for women to speak in church and commands them to be subservient to their husbands. I can give you 298 more such oppressive remarks about women, from both the Old and New Testaments.

Is it not possible, Graeme, that you may be wrong...

No, it really isn't

That right there is what's wrong with your attitude, and makes you an extremist...

...but it means I can be unsure of things like a young 6000 year old earth.

...and scientifically illiterate.

 

[Graeme]

So where in the bible does it appoint you as the judge to determine who is and is not Christian?

Lunch was good.


There are a few 1 John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

1 Thes 5:21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good. "

1 Cor 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "

Luke 12:57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?"


1 Cor 6:2-3 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

 

[Graeme]

so like I said not nessecarily WHO is and WHO is not Saved (christian), but WHAT is and is not Christian.

There are those who believe in things which are not Christian and I can judge those things and say they are not Christian.

 

[Graeme]

No where does it support oppression of women, again I think you need to look that word up in the dictionary.

Sure. Read 1 Corinthians 14, paying particular attention to verses 34 and 35. That's where Paul explains that it's shameful for women to speak in church and commands them to be subservient to their husbands. I can give you 298 more such oppressive remarks about women, from both the Old and New Testaments.

haha it says they should be submissive or subjective to GOD, as must men. Although it also asks in other sections for women to be submissive to their husbands. But it doesn't ask them to be oppressed.

AGAIN I say, LOOK UP THE WORD OPPRESSION you don't know what it means.

Oppression: "unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power "

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[Graeme]

Is it not possible, Graeme, that you may be wrong...

No, it really isn't

That right there is what's wrong with your attitude, and makes you an extremist...

How does knowing what is in the Bible make me an extremist?

 

[Graeme]

...but it means I can be unsure of things like a young 6000 year old earth.

...and scientifically illiterate.

What? Did you even read what I wrote?

 

[LittleRunningGag]

RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

Doesn't the term Christian refer to a person that believes in Christ? I'm pretty sure that Catholics believe in Christ.

 

[skinzer]

Thats Interesting......Catholism, is more of a cult in my view.....Christainity, I think is more of a Spirtual thing and a connection with God. Churches seem to usally have a poor impact on most poeple who would liek to beleave in God, But not just Catholic churches most protosent chruches too...I dont attend church at all ... unless dragged to one. I am happy being me and not having somoene tell me how i should be for God to let me into heaven, Besides, it his Job to Judge me, if I can live my life in a decent fashion and enjoy myself, hopefully God will see that I have more Pros than Cons

Sorry, I've got to intercept this conversation here. And I have to agree with the quoted post. We are all humans, some of us are Christians, I do not care if you are one or not. Let's please be some mature people here, instead of arguing on some historic facts that might not be entirely true, let's construct something together. Get to volunteer or if you really want to do some posting, post about good valors, good habits, how to improve ourselves. I have to say that I am a Christian and a Catholic, and whether this means I try to be as nice with people as I can. Everyday, I ask myself 'What could I do better for other people?' . If I find a quote or a Bible writing that fits to my way of thinking, I write it down and I actually try to do it states. That's what everyone should be concentrating about instead of just getting over with facts that don't even matter. You have the 10 Commandements, apply them to the way you think that fits best with you and when that is done, you can get worried about historic Bible facts. And I've working on those Commandements for many years and I'm still not done with them. Although I go to Church, I have never red the Bible but instead of thinking like the mentionned really nice guy in a previous post that was discriminating other religions and gays, I accept everyone as they are. We are all humans. We all have feelings. We all need help with our feelings, so why do we take our times debating on facts?

Thank you for reading this interruption. You may continue your debate.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

Although I go to Church, I have never red the Bible

I don't mean to be rude, but could you explain this? I've heard it from so many Christians. How can a person base their entire life on a book that they've never read? I just don't understand.

 

[skinzer]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

Although I go to Church, I have never red the Bible

I don't mean to be rude, but could you explain this? I've heard it from so many Christians. How can a person base their entire life on a book that they've never read? I just don't understand.

My parents were Christians so they transfered it to me. I accepted it mentally and I would like to read it, but I've never found the time. You know, time is money... It has always been in my life so that's why I just accept it as it is. You base yourself on what you know from your religion, what you want to reject from it, and you build a philosophy from there. I personally believe in the Commandements and apply them in my life (except for the Sabbath). Hope it answers your question.

 

[Graeme]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

Although I go to Church, I have never red the Bible

I don't mean to be rude, but could you explain this? I've heard it from so many Christians. How can a person base their entire life on a book that they've never read? I just don't understand.

My parents were Christians so they transfered it to me. I accepted it mentally and I would like to read it, but I've never found the time. You know, time is money... It has always been in my life so that's why I just accept it as it is. You base yourself on what you know from your religion, what you want to reject from it, and you build a philosophy from there. I personally believe in the Commandements and apply them in my life (except for the Sabbath). Hope it answers your question.

The nice thing about having reading the Bible is that you learn what is most important in it.

You may find this odd but that is not the 10 commandments, the most important thing in the Bible is salvation (makes sense considering salvation decides how you spend eternity)

Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the messiah, our savior. Believing that the man existed is not enough to make you Christian. Most Muslims and Jews believe Jesus existed but they don't believe he is the messiah, those religions obviously aren't Christian.

While it gets a little more complicated with the Catholic religion, the problem still exists that Catholic doctrine does not make Jesus the savior instead it relies on "being good" or following "sacraments"... That is why it is not Christian.

 

[thecdn]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

Doesn't the term Christian refer to a person that believes in Christ? I'm pretty sure that Catholics believe in Christ.

Don't forget how important it is for each of the many brands of christianity to be the 'right' one.

My former boss down here was a lutheran. Kindest, most honourable man I've ever met. We were driving by a lds church once and he said they weren't christian.

To him that was the ultimate insult. His particular flavour of christianity labelled another group, that most would say at least appeared christian, as not.

I know it appears silly to outsiders like us, but it seems to be critically important to them to define who is and isn't proper members of the gang.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Is it not possible, Graeme, that you may be wrong...

No, it really isn't

That right there is what's wrong with your attitude, and makes you an extremist...

How does knowing what is in the Bible make me an extremist?

Nice try. It's your belief that you couldn't possibly be wrong that makes you an extremist. And if you think there's any possibility the earth is only 6000 years old, you're scientifically illiterate.

 

[pastafarian]

DS, you mentioned having read some Tom Harpur in the past. Have you ever dabbled in Biblical scholarship or exegesis?

I find it amusing when people say they "know" the Bible, because I've tried to read some of the scholarship related to it, in particular, the stories of Jesus.

As an example,a few years back, I tried to puzzle through Barbara Thiering's Jesus the Man: A new interpretation from the Dead Sea scrolls. Without a fair grasp of Hebrew, Latin and Greek, a knowledge of archaeology , Jewish/Roman history circa 5 BC and some ideas of the competing schools of Biblical hermeneutics, I found myself unable to follow, let alone evaluate her arguments.

I've concluded that Biblical scholarship, while one of the most demanding areas of academic endeavour (for obvious reasons: so many axes being ground) is one which every yokel who's watched the 700 Club feels qualified to comment on.

I suspect that there will never be a definitive understanding of the Bible, even among the most objective scholars, so that every sect of Christianity will feel that they follow the "true Faith".

 

[Dexter Sinister]

DS, you mentioned having read some Tom Harpur in the past. Have you ever dabbled in Biblical scholarship or exegesis?

Yes, but dabbled is definitely the right word for it. I've read the Bible itself in several versions, starting with the King James Version because that's the one I was introduced to in early youth, but the 17th century English in it renders large parts of it hard to understand. The Revised Standard Version and the Jerusalem Bible are much easier to read. I've read most of Harpur's books, a couple of Bishop John Shelby Spong's, Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels years ago, and recently a most entertaining one called The Laughing Jesus: Religious Lies and Gnostic Wisdom, by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Among my more treasured books (actually it's a pair) is Asimov's Guide to the Bible, by the inimitable Isaac Asimov of course. It's a detailed guide to the secular context of all the books of the Bible, though it's not up to date with current scholarship, it was published in 1969. But it's still good.

Like you, I find the serious academic and scholarly stuff pretty much incomprehensible.

And of course I've read The DaVinci Code :lol:

 

[Graeme]

I find it amusing when people say they "know" the Bible, because I've tried to read some of the scholarship related to it, in particular, the stories of Jesus.

I am sure you have not even done a preliminary study of the Bible itself, including reading the book as it is now translated. So I don't see how you can make much of a comment at all on this issue. Especially when we are dealing with an issue so centeral to the religion - Salvation.

It doesn't take a whole lot of back ground knowledge to understand the points I made.

 

[pastafarian]

I am sure you have not even done a preliminary study of the Bible itself

Clearly, you are sure about a lot of things about which you are not only wrong, but presumptuous.

DS, I also own and treaure the Asimov books. Though they are out of date, a lot of his basic info is still valid and his clear writing style makes them a great jumping off point. Have you read The Bible Unearthed , by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein?
It was really eye-opening to me with respect how much people accept the historical accuracy of the Old Testament without questioning.

 

[Calliope]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Christian.

I am to judge who is Christian based on the bible,

"A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ, believing him to be the Son of God and the savior of human souls from sin and death."

Anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ and tried to live their life according to those teachings is a Christian. Western religions like Anglican, Chatholic, United. Lutheran etc are all considered christian based religions.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Have you read The Bible Unearthed ...

No, haven't seen that one, but you seem an intelligent and thoughtful person so based on your recommendation I'll certainly look it up. Thanks.