Who do you call a war hero?

[scratch]

Oh you really got us mad on that one! :roll:

So I guess that includes every Canadian FF or cop who rescues someone as well. If someone pulls one of your loved ones from a burning house you'll just take your child (if you have one, et all...) and say...

"Whatever...it's your job."

Eagle you are a savvy guy and I respect you. When these people got into these professions (as long as they were well trained and guided) they knew what they might face one day and act accordingly. That is doing the job that you chose. It is not, nor will it ever be a case for `heroism`.
As far as the burning house and my child it would be as I expected and they would be thanked for a job well done. But I wouldn't go so far as having a poster made in their honour!

regards,
scratch

 

[Praxius]

Praxius, this is crap. read the article I posted, please.

The man sacrificed in order to help his fellows. That is heroic.

Dislike his politics, or his personality, fine.

But give the man his due........

I read your post, and it's nothing new to what I have already heard... it's the same stuff I seen on the History Channel, it's the same stuff I heard on his biography, and it's the same stuff I keep hearing at his speeches to pump him up.... nothing new and thus, nothing has changed my opinion on the guy.

All soldiers sacrafice, and him being a POW and what he did as a POW isn't anything heroic, as I have heard more stories of many other soldiers who did a hell of a lot more then he ever did with far less..... the only difference is that he had a camera shoved up his arse the whole time.

I even seen the footage where he talked about his family and wanted them to know he is doing well.... that's not all that heroic as 90% of POWs would probably say the exact same thing.

Because he refused to get out sooner then others when the opportunity arose because he was ordered to do so beforehand, isn't heroic.

Sorry.

 

[Praxius]

Hero is, or should be an extinct word. As you said (it seems that we could be dopplegangers) what you were taught growing up was the same thing I was taught. It has never left us and what we do for others without a second thought on a daily basis is more `heroic` than anything else.
If a soldier is given correct training and guidance the word hero never comes to mind. Whatever McCain or Murphy did was part of their `job description` as a soldier, no more, no less.

regards,
scratch

Exactly, he was ordered to follow the first one in, first one out process.... he was ordered to refuse early release before others who have been there longer..... I seen him even say this with his own words and his own lips..... he and every other soldier were ordered to follow that procedure..... following orders doesn't make you anymore special and heroic then the next soldier.....

 

[Praxius]

War hero? I don't think so. There were thousands of others who fought in that stupid war who were better qualified as "war heros" than McCain. McCain did his work from the air conditioned comfort of the A-4 cockpit he was riding in. Missions over the target were short but McCain could see the people he was killing. He could see that he wasn't bombing military targets, but civillian villages. American bomber pilots killed a couple million civillians in Viet Nam. McCain was just one of many Ask the Viet Namese is they thought he was a hero.

Well now that I reflect on your above post, I can see why some people could see McCain as a war hero..... those same people think the guys who dropped the bombs on Japan and killed so many civilians were war heros too..... even though all they did was push a button on defenseless people.

 

[Praxius]

Oh you really got us mad on that one! :roll:

So I guess that includes every Canadian FF or cop who rescues someone as well. If someone pulls one of your loved ones from a burning house you'll just take your child (if you have one, et all...) and say...

"Whatever...it's your job."

I'll say thanks, but it is afterall, their job. Some may claim they were a hero, while usually those people directly in question will simply say "They were just doing their job" ~ Which they were.

But then if someone was saving someone's life at the risk of their own, then there is grounds for calling them heroic, but McCain wasn't saving anybody. If you want to claim that since he didn't leave early, he allowed others to leave..... well that follows back to the orders again.

If I was a POW and I was ordered not to skip ahead of others who were there longer then I, and they gave me the opportunity to leave early, I would have to say no as well..... or else I would have went against orders at the expense of my fellow soldiers, I'd probably get shatted on by the force for it, given a brand name "Coward" by other soldiers, in McCain's position, my father would have gotten a bad rep along with me..... so there wasn't really much of an option in this decision to begin with.... unless McCain planned on living the rest of his life in hiding somewhere in the bayou in shame.

 

[EagleSmack]

Eagle you are a savvy guy and I respect you. When these people got into these professions (as long as they were well trained and guided) they knew what they might face one day and act accordingly. That is doing the job that you chose. It is not, nor will it ever be a case for `heroism`.
As far as the burning house and my child it would be as I expected and they would be thanked for a job well done. But I wouldn't go so far as having a poster made in their honour!

regards,
scratch

I could live with that. I do not think by simply putting on a uniform of any sort gives you instant hero status. However in the course of their careers they may do something heroic and be a hero. I also do not believe that only cops, military and firefighters, etc are the only ones who can be heroes.

If Praxius rescued my son from a fire as his career as an antagonizer (please see the humor Prax) I would indeed think he was a hero. I would be greatly appreciative to him. The same would go if he was a firefighter or cop.

 

[scratch]

I could live with that. I do not think by simply putting on a uniform of any sort gives you instant hero status. However in the course of their careers they may do something heroic and be a hero. I also do not believe that only cops, military and firefighters, etc are the only ones who can be heroes.

If Praxius rescued my son from a fire as his career as an antagonizer (please see the humor Prax) I would indeed think he was a hero. I would be greatly appreciative to him. The same would go if he was a firefighter or cop.

In the case of Prax, I would call his actions `admirable` and extremely noteworthy considering his action was not backed by training. But as for the others we pay them to do this day in and day out and they are the last ones that want to be called heroes!

regards,
scratch

 

[Colpy]

My grandfather was a conscientious objector in Nazi Germany...I can't think of anything more heroic than that...

Neither can I.

Did he survive?

If so, How?

There is a story there.......

 

[EagleSmack]

I'll say thanks, but it is afterall, their job. Some may claim they were a hero, while usually those people directly in question will simply say "They were just doing their job" ~ Which they were.

Most of them say just that- I was just doing my job. I have never heard someone say they are a hero after doing something heroic.

But then if someone was saving someone's life at the risk of their own, then there is grounds for calling them heroic, but McCain wasn't saving anybody. If you want to claim that since he didn't leave early, he allowed others to leave..... well that follows back to the orders again.

I agree. I said he wasn't a hero.

 

[EagleSmack]

Well now that I reflect on your above post, I can see why some people could see McCain as a war hero..... those same people think the guys who dropped the bombs on Japan and killed so many civilians were war heros too..... even though all they did was push a button on defenseless people.

And what about Canadians that dropped bombs on Germans civillians? French?

 

[scratch]

Most of them say just that- I was just doing my job. I have never heard someone say they are a hero after doing something heroic.



I agree. I said he wasn't a hero.

Eagle just to back up my feelings about this, I'll give you a brief story of something I was personally involved in.
In July 1976, in St-Laurent, Quebec an armed bank robbery was going on. It went badly. Someone was killed. The getaway car ended up in the parking lot where I was working on my car. I saw the car pull in, watched the female driver get out. We looked directly at each other, no more than four feet from each other and then she just walked away. No more than fifteen minutes later the lot was crawling with cops and reporters.
I would not deal with the press, only the police. I picked her from a mug shot and had to go to trial to identify her. I did so. She was found guilty. Sentenced to 25 yrs without parole.
Was I a hero, no, I did my civic duty and that was it. If I had given into the press my life would have been over.
Those who have been deemed heroes, like lottery winners always from what I have seen end up losers in the end.

regards,
scratch

 

[lone wolf]

And what about Canadians that dropped bombs on Germans civillians? French?

Just like the guys who delivered Hanoi Christmas packages, it was all part of the terrorist act called war. Honour, glory and chivalry on the fields of war died with the birth of the carbine rifle.

 

[Praxius]

And what about Canadians that dropped bombs on Germans civillians? French?

Every allied nation has a role in those examples.

But I don't consider any bombers as heros.... think of it like how there's been a long history of regular troops not holding much respect for snipers. There is no real risk to bombers or snipers as there are for those right in the thick of it.

The difference I have with respect to snipers and bombers, is that snipers are selective with their targets and the deaths of civilians at their hands are very minimal (Unless they're ordered to target civilians) while bombers just blanket and entire area in a kill zone regardless of who's in the way.... and then they just head back to the base for a coffee.

There was an unfortunate need for mass bombings in WWII for both sides, allied and axis.... that was the way the war was back then..... but that doesn't mean I consider the tactic as heroic.

In a case of bombers being heroic, the only situations where I could warrent one as heroic, is if their bomber was shot down and a crewman risked his life or sacraficed his life to save fellow crewmen by getting them out before they crashed, rather then just bailing the first chance they got.

In other words, perhaps being a hero involves risking your own health or life to save one or more from death or further suffering.

In McCain's situation, he didn't risk his life or health to save others as many may believe, since there's plenty of photos out there showing he was getting plenty of medical treatment and others watching over him to make sure he remained alive (Most of those injuries he got were from the crash, not from saving someone's life).... regardless if it was crappy medical treatment or not.... it was probably a lot more then what most got.

And yes, I do see that you don't think he's a war hero, so I'm not debating that part.

 

[EagleSmack]

Every allied nation has a role in those examples.

Agreed...but you singled out the US bombing of Japan.

But I don't consider any bombers as heros.... think of it like how there's been a long history of regular troops not holding much respect for snipers. There is no real risk to bombers or snipers as there are for those right in the thick of it.


The difference I have with respect to snipers and bombers, is that snipers are selective with their targets and the deaths of civilians at their hands are very minimal (Unless they're ordered to target civilians) while bombers just blanket and entire area in a kill zone regardless of who's in the way.... and then they just head back to the base for a coffee.

Agree and disagree.

Bomber pilots can be heroic if they do a heroic act. Snipers are in the same boat. They are, for the most part way back and in hiding because that is their mission. Stealth and accuracy. A sniper sniping a target is no less heroic than a bomber bombing. They are doing their job. But both bomber and snipers can be brave.

There was an unfortunate need for mass bombings in WWII for both sides, allied and axis.... that was the way the war was back then..... but that doesn't mean I consider the tactic as heroic.

Then lets be fair and spread the blame around. Both the Axis and Allies conducted mass bombings...not just the US over Japan.

In a case of bombers being heroic, the only situations where I could warrent one as heroic, is if their bomber was shot down and a crewman risked his life or sacraficed his life to save fellow crewmen by getting them out before they crashed, rather then just bailing the first chance they got.

Right. But when a plane starts its death roll and spin...if you aren't out PDQ you are pretty much dead no matter what your intentions were.

{quote]In other words, perhaps being a hero involves risking your own health or life to save one or more from death or further suffering.[/quote]

Agreed

In McCain's situation, he didn't risk his life or health to save others as many may believe, since there's plenty of photos out there showing he was getting plenty of medical treatment and others watching over him to make sure he remained alive (Most of those injuries he got were from the crash, not from saving someone's life).... regardless if it was crappy medical treatment or not.... it was probably a lot more then what most got.

Prax...do you really think he was treated kindly? He was tortured just like every other pilot. And yes, the US I am admitting probably tortured VC or captured NVA. But the idea of him getting plenty of medical attention...but then later crank his arms up over his head and hang him is ridiculous. Look at the guy...he's a physical wreck because of torture.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Neither can I.

Did he survive?

If so, How?

There is a story there.......

Yes he survived...he was forced into the forestry service...

That's really all I know for sure...

I'm not really close to that side of the family, for obvious reasons...

He also lived in Russia during the Civil War, but I know nothing about that at all...

 

[Colpy]

Praxius said:

But I don't consider any bombers as heros.... think of it like how there's been a long history of regular troops not holding much respect for snipers. There is no real risk to bombers or snipers as there are for those right in the thick of it.

Wrong, about bomber crew anyway..

Bomber Command crews also suffered an extremely high casualty rate: 55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war

RAF Bomber Command - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That is the highest casualty rate of any service, and includes the uncle I never knew, a radio operater / gunner on a Wellington, killed in July of 1941.

As for snipers, I could find no data on casualty rates.

 

[#juan]

Since we were talking about McCain's war, WW2 bomber losses are not really relevent. The bombers McCain was flying were fighter bombers that could defend themselves. and when they were shot down, it was as likely as not, they were hit by a Surface to air missile. The Russian built Sams, primative at first, got better as the war progressed

 

[TenPenny]

My personal definition of 'war hero' is someone who, in the course of a war, did something showing extra courage or fortitude to help others. Simply surving a war is not heroic; being heroic is going out of your way to help others.