Venzuela leads the world against USA
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Ocean Breeze said:
The US treats it's prisoners? Americans in prisons have access to cable TV, gyms, libraries ....etc.
So no, this is not happening in the US. As politicians, we do not kill or torture our rivals. COMMITTING CRIMES AGAINST YOUR OWN PEOPLE IS MENTALLY DISTURBING. Charges should be brought against Chavez, no question.
no1important said:
Well, that shows what kind of policies you support. That is too bad.
You support an individual who has a record of serious Human Rights Violations ... get this ... it's against his own people. That is pathetic. An individual who killed and tortured his own citizens.
Ask the families of his political rivals what became of some of their kins.
GL Schmitt said:
So you support an individual who has killed and tortured his own political rivals. His own citizens.
That is too bad.
RE: Venzuela leads the wo
Human rights violations have gone way down under Chavez, Texass. He's also democratically elected and has the overwhelming support of the Venezuelan people. Your president claims to support democracy.
If the CIA backs his assassination, and nobody else will, The US domestic law has been broken. The assassination of foreign political leaders has been illegal since 1976. It would also be an act of terrorism, also illegal under US law.
As for whether Chavez takes money away from those that earn and gives it to welfare recipients.... Well, he's created a lot of jobs for people who couldn't get jobs before. He's also started educating people so that they can compete in a modern workforce. Looks to me like it was the pro-Bush conservatives who were keeping people out of work, not Chavez.
So Texass and Nascar Nero, you have not only shown yourselves to be wrong, but to be ignorant propagandists who wish to spread lies in order to keep the tanks of your SUVs filled.
Human rights violations have gone way down under Chavez, Texass. He's also democratically elected and has the overwhelming support of the Venezuelan people. Your president claims to support democracy.
If the CIA backs his assassination, and nobody else will, The US domestic law has been broken. The assassination of foreign political leaders has been illegal since 1976. It would also be an act of terrorism, also illegal under US law.
As for whether Chavez takes money away from those that earn and gives it to welfare recipients.... Well, he's created a lot of jobs for people who couldn't get jobs before. He's also started educating people so that they can compete in a modern workforce. Looks to me like it was the pro-Bush conservatives who were keeping people out of work, not Chavez.
So Texass and Nascar Nero, you have not only shown yourselves to be wrong, but to be ignorant propagandists who wish to spread lies in order to keep the tanks of your SUVs filled.
The real threat The following article is a couple years old but it is still true.
The Threat of Hugo Chavez and the Venezuelan People
Inside the Vision of the US Elite
Katherine Lahey
The US government and Presidential candidate John Kerry have announced that President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, is a threat to the United States. What is most ironic is that while using a different framework through which to analyze this statement, this is true. The vision of Hugo Chavez and the strong community organizing of the Venezuelan people little by little destroys the corrupt, imperialist, and repressive vision and practice of the US government and its capacity to intervene in the affairs of the people, minimizing their efforts to control the beloved nation called Venezuela. In fact, it transforms their framework while resisting it- that is why recently Colin Powell announced after the referendum that the US, while in “disagreement” over policies and ideology, will find ways in which to cooperate with the Venezuelan government. The work of the people makes it even more impossible for the US government to execute its plan to rule by a foreign hand, buying officials within while foreign banks come to partake in the fruits of the capitalist machine of globalization that has destroyed so many lives and so many countries. However, they continue to sing the cry of threat and danger, their fingers pointed toward Hugo Chavez, the leader of the resistance against neoliberalism and imperialism.
The importance of Venezuela as a political theme has increased as the long awaited elections near in November in the United States. Of course, both candidates George Bush and John Kerry are so similar that really there is no difference; they are figures representing the same interests of domination. The differences over which they continue to squabble are miniscule, yet magnified in an effort by the private media to create more drama and to maintain the power of the two-party system. They fundamentally agree in many areas, but one in which they both agree particularly strongly: the threat of Hugo Chavez and the Venezuelan people. Of course strategically, Venezuela means one thing to them- oil. They don’t see a people, a beautiful land rich with history and culture and principled politics from which they could most certainly learn- they see dollars and an opportunity, under the right conditions, to snag the resources that belong to another people. But there’s just one problem- the determination and struggle of a people and a revolution that has already firmly planted its roots, with a leader that will never ever sell his people nor his country nor their sovereignty as a people. What’s more, is that the beautiful and fierce example of the Bolivarian Revolution doesn’t just remain closed within the borders of Venezuela. Each day it grows and extends itself throughout Latin America, in Ecuador, in Bolivia, in Brazil, in Argentina, blossoming and creating a more united people and a consciousness of the power possible in the roots of community over empire. This is the threat which they actually describe, the threat against them themselves and their project to conquer the world.
Of course, what they mean to say is that Chavez is a terrorist threat, that he ideologically supports terrorists through his anti-imperialist resistance, which means danger for the US homeland in the light of the September 11th attacks. But in reality, it is that little by little, this resistance, in combination with the empowerment of the Venezuelan people, damages their own terrorist campaign and domination, and that they fear that this process will empower and inspire other oppressed people to rise up, to organize, to reclaim their humanity and their society. Because no longer does it work to pour billions of dollars into opposition groups in hopes of generating another coup, as they did through the NED, the National Endowment for Democracy, a right-wing group that in the name of democracy funds opposition groups that promote US imperialist interests in other countries throughout the world. This was one of the great lessons of the August 15th referendum, that the power already belongs to the people and it is impossible to take that away. That no longer can billions of imported dollars save your oligarchy. The people have sung their message. They have said, “No Volverán!”, that they won’t go back. And this is the threat.
The Threat of Hugo Chavez and the Venezuelan People
Inside the Vision of the US Elite
Katherine Lahey
The US government and Presidential candidate John Kerry have announced that President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, is a threat to the United States. What is most ironic is that while using a different framework through which to analyze this statement, this is true. The vision of Hugo Chavez and the strong community organizing of the Venezuelan people little by little destroys the corrupt, imperialist, and repressive vision and practice of the US government and its capacity to intervene in the affairs of the people, minimizing their efforts to control the beloved nation called Venezuela. In fact, it transforms their framework while resisting it- that is why recently Colin Powell announced after the referendum that the US, while in “disagreement” over policies and ideology, will find ways in which to cooperate with the Venezuelan government. The work of the people makes it even more impossible for the US government to execute its plan to rule by a foreign hand, buying officials within while foreign banks come to partake in the fruits of the capitalist machine of globalization that has destroyed so many lives and so many countries. However, they continue to sing the cry of threat and danger, their fingers pointed toward Hugo Chavez, the leader of the resistance against neoliberalism and imperialism.
The importance of Venezuela as a political theme has increased as the long awaited elections near in November in the United States. Of course, both candidates George Bush and John Kerry are so similar that really there is no difference; they are figures representing the same interests of domination. The differences over which they continue to squabble are miniscule, yet magnified in an effort by the private media to create more drama and to maintain the power of the two-party system. They fundamentally agree in many areas, but one in which they both agree particularly strongly: the threat of Hugo Chavez and the Venezuelan people. Of course strategically, Venezuela means one thing to them- oil. They don’t see a people, a beautiful land rich with history and culture and principled politics from which they could most certainly learn- they see dollars and an opportunity, under the right conditions, to snag the resources that belong to another people. But there’s just one problem- the determination and struggle of a people and a revolution that has already firmly planted its roots, with a leader that will never ever sell his people nor his country nor their sovereignty as a people. What’s more, is that the beautiful and fierce example of the Bolivarian Revolution doesn’t just remain closed within the borders of Venezuela. Each day it grows and extends itself throughout Latin America, in Ecuador, in Bolivia, in Brazil, in Argentina, blossoming and creating a more united people and a consciousness of the power possible in the roots of community over empire. This is the threat which they actually describe, the threat against them themselves and their project to conquer the world.
Of course, what they mean to say is that Chavez is a terrorist threat, that he ideologically supports terrorists through his anti-imperialist resistance, which means danger for the US homeland in the light of the September 11th attacks. But in reality, it is that little by little, this resistance, in combination with the empowerment of the Venezuelan people, damages their own terrorist campaign and domination, and that they fear that this process will empower and inspire other oppressed people to rise up, to organize, to reclaim their humanity and their society. Because no longer does it work to pour billions of dollars into opposition groups in hopes of generating another coup, as they did through the NED, the National Endowment for Democracy, a right-wing group that in the name of democracy funds opposition groups that promote US imperialist interests in other countries throughout the world. This was one of the great lessons of the August 15th referendum, that the power already belongs to the people and it is impossible to take that away. That no longer can billions of imported dollars save your oligarchy. The people have sung their message. They have said, “No Volverán!”, that they won’t go back. And this is the threat.
RE: Venzuela leads the wo
That's what scares the crap out of the US government...democracy. Chavez is not only democratically elected, but has been showing, quite clearly, that the kind of capitalism promoted by Bush and company has nothing to do with real democracy and is actually anti-democratic at its very core.
That's what scares the crap out of the US government...democracy. Chavez is not only democratically elected, but has been showing, quite clearly, that the kind of capitalism promoted by Bush and company has nothing to do with real democracy and is actually anti-democratic at its very core.
No, I don't, because for the most part, Chavez has not done what you claimNascar_James said:
(Certainly Chavez has done far less than his American counterparts do to their own people --- and as for the reign of terror that passes for American foreign policy --- Chavez hasn't got the resources to duplicate that, even if he desired to do so.)
Your habit of merely parroting claims of wrongdoing without making any attempt to back them up with a citation of a specific incident weakens your accusations, and leads one to either conclude that no such case exists, or, far more likely, that you are not nearly so knowledgeable as you would have us believe.
Finally, I noticed that you made no response to my comment on Chavez leading OPEC to renounce the Petrodollar. Were that to happen, America would find itself in circumstances similar to those of post collapse USSR — holding a vast array of expensive weaponry that could no longer win fiduciary control to their county.
rev:
Cudos rev.
ccasion5: BIG TIME. You just summed up in one short sentence .....the real "threat" to the USR....and it's minions.
Cudos rev.
ccasion5: BIG TIME. You just summed up in one short sentence .....the real "threat" to the USR....and it's minions.
Nascar_James said:
Oh boy, is THAT clear from Nascar guy. His head is full of the doctrine and propaganda of the capitalists, as witnessed by those quotes.
Chavez' opponents are, of course, the Elite Venezuelans who had all the land, like 99% of it.
Is that equality of opportunity? did any of them "work so hard as to deserve 99% for 5% of the population" of a nation's wealth? Is it merit you are arguing?>who has done so much as to deserve to be a slaver?
So okay, you refuse to see that most of the world is like that - 5% of the population holding 80% or more of the wealth. Thats not even including the gold reserves and 'loan-surities' of banks and so on.
What has angered Chavez' opponents is spelled out here [link below] :
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=22629
I'd just like to say that i always enjoy these stimulating intellectual discussions between leftwing and right wing though a bit lopsided(everybody vs. nascar james and texas) you learn lots about both sides of the argument from the bleachers so thanks to everybody
i noticed nascar james keep making the statement that chavez has killed and tortured his political rivales. i was always under the impression that hes one of the nicest political leaders in S. America a modern day Simone Bolivar, can you provide any evidence of his wrondoings? thanks
i noticed nascar james keep making the statement that chavez has killed and tortured his political rivales. i was always under the impression that hes one of the nicest political leaders in S. America a modern day Simone Bolivar, can you provide any evidence of his wrondoings? thanks
It is no secret
That Chavez helps the poor at the expense of the rich. Reducing the gap between the wealthy and the poor. He nationalized the fossil fuel industry and resources and uses the profits to help the poor. He takes unused land owned by the wealthy and breaks it up and gives the poor their own little plots of land.
That Bush (not just Bush but all his rich cronies) helps the rich at the expense of the poor. Expanding the gap between the rich and the poor. In 2004 Americans below poverty increased by 1.1 million and over 800,000 more Americans have no health insurance.
No one is saying Bush is all bad (though I am struggling to see the good) and that Chavez is all good (though most of what he does benefits everyone except the wealthy).
But when you look at the facts. When you see all the lies, deception, corruptness of the Bush administration you have to at least admit that maybe they're still lying when they talk about Chavez. Bush and his administration have given us lies and deception all throughout both terms. He was a lying, cheating, deserting child of wealth his whole life. Why on earth should his administration be believed for anything they say about Chavez. Especially since Chavez stands in their way of neo-colonialism. Chavez rejects the attempts by Bush, the WTO, IMF and World Bank at decimating their economy through free trade, privatization, removal of workers rights, reduction of wages and regulation that have decimated other nations.
You have a known liars who are telling you that the man they want out of the way of their global conquest is a bad man. Who does bad things.
Like neglecting his responsibilities for natural disasters causing so many deaths of the poor? Like engaging in pre-emptive war against another nation based upon lies? Like serving the wealthy over the interests of common man? Against the principles of the Constitution.
It's not rocket science. You don't even need a high school degree to figure this one out.
That Chavez helps the poor at the expense of the rich. Reducing the gap between the wealthy and the poor. He nationalized the fossil fuel industry and resources and uses the profits to help the poor. He takes unused land owned by the wealthy and breaks it up and gives the poor their own little plots of land.
That Bush (not just Bush but all his rich cronies) helps the rich at the expense of the poor. Expanding the gap between the rich and the poor. In 2004 Americans below poverty increased by 1.1 million and over 800,000 more Americans have no health insurance.
No one is saying Bush is all bad (though I am struggling to see the good) and that Chavez is all good (though most of what he does benefits everyone except the wealthy).
But when you look at the facts. When you see all the lies, deception, corruptness of the Bush administration you have to at least admit that maybe they're still lying when they talk about Chavez. Bush and his administration have given us lies and deception all throughout both terms. He was a lying, cheating, deserting child of wealth his whole life. Why on earth should his administration be believed for anything they say about Chavez. Especially since Chavez stands in their way of neo-colonialism. Chavez rejects the attempts by Bush, the WTO, IMF and World Bank at decimating their economy through free trade, privatization, removal of workers rights, reduction of wages and regulation that have decimated other nations.
You have a known liars who are telling you that the man they want out of the way of their global conquest is a bad man. Who does bad things.
Like neglecting his responsibilities for natural disasters causing so many deaths of the poor? Like engaging in pre-emptive war against another nation based upon lies? Like serving the wealthy over the interests of common man? Against the principles of the Constitution.
It's not rocket science. You don't even need a high school degree to figure this one out.
and that is exactly a big point. !! For that matter why on earth would ANYONE believe the bushevics about ANYTHING. They have not told the truth about ANYTHING......(political vernacular not withstanding). "They " have NO credibility.......and CANNOT be believed.
(personally......I could care less about bush........IF he was not ruining a nation and damaging the world equilibrium ......fragile as it is at most times). But when one sees his decisions and hears his stupid transparent LIES........it becomes everyone's issue.
How on earth can anyone respect a LIER who lies to invade, Kill and torture etc??? and then continues with more twisted lies??
The other big problem is that when the USRegime decides someone is out of favor........ deadly things happen. Wars, assassinations, black ops......and gosh knows what else......that is kept SECRET. (for security reasons.. :roll: :roll:
RE: Venzuela leads the wo
As others have said, I don't know anything about Chavez, but as the USG are known liers I choose to believe their claims about human rights abuses are false.
And to Nascar, you said "Have you gone an asked poor Venzuelans what they think?", My response is: Have YOU? Have you asked them, do you know anything firsthand, or are you just spouting what you have seen on Faux News?
I think I can guess the answer to that.
You really shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. Especialy if it comes from a news source as biased and dubiously-credibile as Fox News.
As others have said, I don't know anything about Chavez, but as the USG are known liers I choose to believe their claims about human rights abuses are false.
And to Nascar, you said "Have you gone an asked poor Venzuelans what they think?", My response is: Have YOU? Have you asked them, do you know anything firsthand, or are you just spouting what you have seen on Faux News?
I think I can guess the answer to that.
You really shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. Especialy if it comes from a news source as biased and dubiously-credibile as Fox News.
Nascar_James said:
Answer - you are spreading lies, talking of things you know nothing about. There are Americans in U.S. prisons now denied habias corpus and having no access to lawyers. There are many people in detention in American control who are being tortured. Pull your head out of your butt and see what is happening in the world.
nitzomoe said:
You bet Nitzomoe. You seem to be one of the more rational voices on this thread.
Here is a link to a petition by Venezuelans ...
http://www.petitiononline.com/TARYN/petition.html
To: The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights
We, the undersigned Venezuelan, draw the attention of the Commissioner to the following:
The government of Venezuela is waging a war upon the opposition. Since President Chavez took power in 1998, the opposition have been, shut, attacked by the National Guard with rubber bullets and tear gas, pushed , beaten and stoned in public by President Chavez´ Armed Groups for not supporting his regime, even if this means simply to manifestate on streets, with all the documents and permitions needed. Recently not only the opposition that manifestates, also journalists, students, priests, women, children, and whoever dares not to obey the regimen. This week a student named Jesus Oreano, was beaten, tortured, raped and held in the same cell with the Killer of Altamira by the Political Police. They even gave him a shot with a strange drug. A woman in Valencia was beaten by a National Guard, leaving her in intensive care with a brain concussion.
What really worries us, Venezuelan is that there is no law. The Supreme Court and the People Defender are President Chavez´ acolites, leaving us the people defenseless. We plea that the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights help us in our fight for human rights in Venezuela.
Sincerely,
Nascar_James
twenty five million people in Venezuela and your petition has 600 signatures, including Michael Murphy and Colin Bertram. Several of the petition signers said the saw the offences on television. You call that proof of anything. Keep trying.
twenty five million people in Venezuela and your petition has 600 signatures, including Michael Murphy and Colin Bertram. Several of the petition signers said the saw the offences on television. You call that proof of anything. Keep trying.
Yes! “For the most part”Nascar_James said:
I have no knowledge that Chavez HAS killed and tortured his (or any other country’s) people.
And not one syllable of your polemics against Chavez have subtracted from that lack of knowledge of bad conduct on his part.
On the other hand, I have no exhaustive proof that Chavez HAS NOT killed and tortured anyone. (Neither, have I such proof that Paul Martin, Queen Elizabeth II, nor Pope Benedict XVI HAS NOT killed and tortured people.)
Lacking such unequivocateable proof — and patiently awaiting yours — I equivocate using the phrase “for the most part,” since I am convinced I could not have missed any vast breaches.
Unlike you, I try to make my claims as precise as possible, citing references wherever possible.