Vatican ethics expert Ignacio Carrasco de Paula slams Nobel Prize for IVF pioneer

[hunboldt]

Wasn't a Catholic Bishop arrested crossing the Italian border on a wealth distribution mission just last week? He must not have gotten the papal memo about the new improved stance.

Are you by any chance an 'Extreme Calvinist'?

The Catholic Banking system is being overhauled- but if it was' just last week'- you would have a little more detail- right?

Cash transfers between banks are fairly common- even across-BELIEVE IT OR NOT the Swiss border..

 

[captain morgan]

I don't see people blaming all clergy for what a few did but I do think people are pointing the finger at the Vatican and most of its clergy for the attempts at keeping the abuse quiet and the failure to do something about it in a timely fashion.

I think that they are a target of opportunity. The clergy when convenient, the church on a macro level and the Vatican when the lawyers are looking for damages

Between 1985 and 2012 the various diocese have paid over $3 billion in settlements and several requested bankruptcy protection. You don't do that unless you were caught doing a nono.

Seems to me that all that is necessary is to be accused of a no-no when it comes to the church.

"Ah, Father Jones, we know you did something naughty with little Jessie Smith, but it doesn't need to leave this room or be aired in public. Just say 4 Hail Marys and we'll give you another parrish".

I'll bet that does happen, but the broad-brush generalization to include everyone is pretty thin..... But that still doesn't provide any support as to why a in every other instance where a person has inappropriate contact with a kid is tried as an individual and the RCC is tried as an organization. That and an understanding that the church officials had direct knowledge of the crime and worked feverishly to move the priest to a new parish. That's an assumption that attempts to involve officials in the church as being accessories and little more considering that they move priests around all the time.

I have yet to see a case where Mike Smith is accused of abusing kids he meets through the school where he teaches - gets hung in the court of public opinion and then the lawyers go after the teachers union for monetary damages... Funny how you never read about that, eh?

But anyway, this thread is about some RCC bag of noxious wind ranting about In Vitros. Can't seem to make up its tiny little mind, that RCC. A little while ago we heard a few rants against using birth control and now they rant against having kids. F'n ludicrous.

They aren't allowed an opinion then?

 

[petros]

I don't see people blaming all clergy for what a few did but I do think people are pointing the finger at the Vatican and most of its clergy for the attempts at keeping the abuse quiet and the failure to do something about it in a timely fashion.

Between 1985 and 2012 the various diocese have paid over $3 billion in settlements and several requested bankruptcy protection. You don't do that unless you were caught doing a nono.

Dioceses? Locals? Vatican clergy in a cover up? How do you get Vatican out of Diocese?

You own quote states tat it was a regional issue not a Vatican issue.

 

[hunboldt]

I think that they are a target of opportunity. The clergy when convenient, the church on a macro level and the Vatican when the lawyers are looking for damages



Seems to me that all that is necessary is to be accused of a no-no when it comes to the church.



I'll bet that does happen, but the broad-brush generalization to include everyone is pretty thin..... But that still doesn't provide any support as to why a in every other instance where a person has inappropriate contact with a kid is tried as an individual and the RCC is tried as an organization. That and an understanding that the church officials had direct knowledge of the crime and worked feverishly to move the priest to a new parish. That's an assumption that attempts to involve officials in the church as being accessories and little more considering that they move priests around all the time.

I have yet to see a case where Mike Smith is accused of abusing kids he meets through the school where he teaches - gets hung in the court of public opinion and then the lawyers go after the teachers union for monetary damages... Funny how you never read about that, eh?




They aren't allowed an opinion then?

CM raises a very good point( s). Traditionally, when priests were in 'surplus to needs', the Catholic church orders would impose 'monastic discipline' on pedophile priests.


The Benedictine Abbott Ordinaries would provide 'monastic shelter' or hermitage on their grounds for priests unable to cope with their desires in the parishes. It was an 'internal; discipline system'.

The shortage of priests , coupled with the old tradition of an internal discipline codes in the 'Order' , plus the new and sometimes badly done psychology of 'reforming the sexually errant priest', created a perfect storm.

One solution done in a lot of parishes is that the parish 'takes back' the youth groups, the parish administration, etc., allowing priests to remain in the adult counselling and the sacramental roles.

Which seems to be working.

 

[petros]

The abuses were from 40+ years ago when there was an abundance of priests.

 

[Machjo]

Well then, let's look at your stupidity.

charming as always.

would expect to see the Pope mentioned in a book that describes our Lord Jesus Christ's ministry while on earth because?............. You do realize that there was no Holy Roman Catholic Church until AFTER Christ ascended.....right? But....if you want to get technical.... Peter, who is considered the First Holy Father of the Church IS mentioned, more than once, in the NT.

And when was Peter appointed? On the rock of what Peter had just responded to a question by Jesus was He to build his Church, not on Peter himself. At least that's my understanding of that passage.

and we are to take everything in the Bible as literal because.......... you say so?

No. I don't take the Bible literally, but the Catholic Church does. Or at least that's what I was taught in catechism class in Catholic School. I'd figue that a Catholic school teacher would befamiliar with catholic doctrine, no?

I'd had this conversation with a nun once too, and she too insisted that he had risen literally. I'd assume a nun would know something of catholic doctine too, no?

and what decision would that be? The same decision you should be making because Canadian governments have allied themselves with murderers and cut throats through the years? or is that different?:roll:

To report any suspect activity to the authorities? From my understanding, the Church has been pushing for just that, and if so, then all I can say is better late than never. I hope all priests will respond to this new policy.

And no it is not different for me. I too speak out against injustices especially from my own country since it reflects badly on me.

 

[petros]

And when was Peter appointed? On the rock of what Peter had just responded to a question by Jesus was He to build his Church, not on Peter himself. At least that's my understanding of that passage.

Peter IS rock. Petros in Greek. .

 

[Machjo]

Yes, Jesus was punning. I'm aware of that. However, it still makes more sense to me that He was referring to what Petros had said.

 

[petros]

It was another reference of the Madre (petra) joining the Padre(petros). Male/female balance, yin yang, as above so below, the reflection on the water the unity between the Earth and God. It's why he talks about binding.

I've mentioned before that the people of earth, Jesus' followers are the female, the petra the earth. Petros the male. Until that point Simon Peter was Cephas which is another name for a stone. A stone is something viewed as loose and separate from the rock of the Earth.

It's when the followers of Jesus became the Church with Peter tieing it together and being the foundation of the Church.

That was the point when the Church was "founded" with Petros the male foundation becoming united with the Petra.

 

[hunboldt]

For one thing, where's the Pope in the Bible?
Secondly, if you take the assention of Jesus literally (i.e. that he physically actually rose to the skies like a rocket), then can that would mean that identifying heaven woudl be a question for NASA, not theologians. so, is heaven within you, or at a particular cosmic coordinate?



True enough. Innocent priests must make a decision.

To answer the first question, the bishop of Rome as 'Primus among pares' since he had to negotiate for the first three hundred years for the Church's survival within the Roman Empire, and after the fall of Rome he became the de facto leader of Christian Civilisation , as the Visigoths, Vandals, Lombard's and all hadn't produced a 'coherent organizational replacement structure'.
( Theodoric and the Ostrogoth's tried)..

The bible also fails to delineate the Metropolitan of Moscow, the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the President of the LDS. Of the Governance of the Missouri Synod of the Baptist Movement.

And the Cohanen feel we are ' running our separate business">

Your point is ..

 

[Machjo]

The point is that that was why I'd left the catholic church. I was saying rather than just complain one is always free to leave the Catholic Church.

 

[petros]

If it was confusing, all you had to do was ask. Does it make sense now?

 

[L Gilbert]

I think that they are a target of opportunity. The clergy when convenient, the church on a macro level and the Vatican when the lawyers are looking for damages

I guess it does seem like that.

Seems to me that all that is necessary is to be accused of a no-no when it comes to the church.

Especially when the evidence says so.

I'll bet that does happen, but the broad-brush generalization to include everyone is pretty thin..... But that still doesn't provide any support as to why a in every other instance where a person has inappropriate contact with a kid is tried as an individual

for actually abusing

and the RCC is tried as an organization.

for trying to bury the abuse

That and an understanding that the church officials had direct knowledge of the crime and worked feverishly to move the priest to a new parish. That's an assumption that attempts to involve officials in the church as being accessories and little more considering that they move priests around all the time.

Knowledge of abuse isn't an assumption.

Catholic Church Knew of Priest Denis McAlinden Abuse

BBC News - Catholic Church in Scotland 'knew of 20 child sex abuse allegations'

Child sex abuse in the Dutch Catholic Church | Radio Netherlands Worldwide

etc. etc. etc.

I have yet to see a case where Mike Smith is accused of abusing kids he meets through the school where he teaches - gets hung in the court of public opinion and then the lawyers go after the teachers union for monetary damages... Funny how you never read about that, eh?

If the teachers' union subverted the course of justice the lawyers would have attacked it.

Two entirely different charges;
1. the actual charge of abuse, and
2.the different charge of being complicit after the fact.
Hence, we get charges like aiding and abetting, conspiracy to commit, subverting the course of justice, etc.

They aren't allowed an opinion then?

Yup, but different topics are for different threads. The rules for being in CC kinda said something about sticking to the topic.

Dioceses? Locals? Vatican clergy in a cover up? How do you get Vatican out of Diocese?

You own quote states tat it was a regional issue not a Vatican issue.

You don't think there's communication between the diocese and the Vatican?

I guess folks are just bent on discussing abuse rather than the thread topic. I'm out.

 

[captain morgan]

Especially when the evidence says so.

for actually abusing for trying to bury the abuseKnowledge of abuse isn't an assumption.

etc. etc. etc.

The very first words from the article:

"A child abuse inquiry has heard members of the Newcastle Catholic diocese knew about allegations against one priest since the 1950s."

... Looks like the slam dunk 'evidence' are based on allegations... Normally that word isn't used when there is concrete evidence, is it?

​

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If the teachers' union subverted the course of justice the lawyers would have attacked it.

It happens the exact same way as the Church... Teachers get transferred every day, and don't tell me that there are no instances of sexual misconduct in the school system(s).

The teachers union is no different than the Vatican

Two entirely different charges;
1. the actual charge of abuse, and
2.the different charge of being complicit after the fact.
Hence, we get charges like aiding and abetting, conspiracy to commit, subverting the course of justice, etc.

The word allegations keeps coming up here... But more to the point, if the allegations are proven on the individual's actions, how is it a fair standard to hold an entire organization responsible if it's a church, but a different standard when it's a teacher.

BTW - complicity after the fact has to be proven, not just speculated upon... A church official getting reports of allegations is not proof of anything other than a complaint has been lodged.

In one fell swoop, you have acted as judge, jury and executioner on a matter(s) that you have no details on.

Yup, but different topics are for different threads. The rules for being in CC kinda said something about sticking to the topic.

This is what happens when you make statements that are outside the the bounds of the OP

You don't think there's communication between the diocese and the Vatican?

How many Catholic Diocese are There In the world? + need source - Ask Community

"Statistics taken in 2009 state that there were 2167 catholic dioceses in the world. "

I'd guess that Monday morning coffee meetings are probably out of the question

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The media have to use the word allegations or alleged or some such qualifier until things are legally proven in court, you can't take it to mean people are just making things up.

 

[captain morgan]

The media have to use the word allegations or alleged or some such qualifier until things are legally proven in court, you can't take it to mean people are just making things up.

Agreed.

But until they are proven, they exist solely as allegations... Probably fair to say that the media leverages that grey area in order to sell more advertising/newspapers, etc they aren't so interested in what the 'truth' is per se

 

[Kreskin]

Agreed.

But until they are proven, they exist solely as allegations... Probably fair to say that the media leverages that grey area in order to sell more advertising/newspapers, etc they aren't so interested in what the 'truth' is per se

Most journalists take their jobs pretty seriously. Seeking the truth is at the heart of what they do. Using the words alleged or allegations is being fair to the accused, along with some CYA.

 

[captain morgan]

Most journalists take their jobs pretty seriously. Seeking the truth is at the heart of what they do. Using the words alleged or allegations is being fair to the accused, along with some CYA.

In the links I read (not all), there appeared to be no direct communication to hear what the accused had to say. By in large, all of the media presentations portrayed the minister/priest as already guilty.