U.S. soldier kills up to 16 Afghan civilians
- Thread starter Machjo
- Start date
True, but I don't think we should govern ourselves on the basis of others' illusions about us.Appeasement hasn't done an ounce of good so far. Just look at the whole Quoran burning fiasco. Apologising was just interpreted as weakness, and led to more demands.
I say screw 'em. If the guy's an American, bring him home and deal with him. Let the afghans think what they want. Besides, they'll be too busy pursuing the guy that executed the two Americans in the secure government office anyway.
Seriously, there's an "if" there?
Unfortunately, they are. You can make a good case for bringing him home just to hang him, but he's our own to hang. (assumedly).
Was it in FMJ that the fella asked the door gunner,"how can you shoot women and children?"and the gunner sez,"easy,you just don't lead 'em so much"add maniacal laughter.
They {the us}will bring the "aleged shooter"home and treat him for ptsd,and screw him out of his pension,no wait that's the Canadian army.
They {the us}will bring the "aleged shooter"home and treat him for ptsd,and screw him out of his pension,no wait that's the Canadian army.
Anyone who purposely shoots and kills fifteen people including nine children is an homicidal lunatic. Quietly bring him home and put him in the deepest prison there is......not a mental hospital, or some doctor at some point will decide he is cured and let him out.
One of the most memorable lines in that excellent movie.
The best scene though, is the last scene, when they're marching across a back drop of burning buildings, singing the Mickey Mouse Club march song...
Full Metal Jacket - Mickey Mouse song - YouTube
Very appropriate and extremely poignant.
Seriously, there's an "if" there?
Active duty Soldiers are usually tried by their own nation. Unusual circumstance sometimes give the host nation wiggle room, or their own nation, my opt to allow the host nation to try them. Usually for the purposes of cool optics.
If true, he/they'll most likely be brought home.
U.S. soldier reportedly kills 16 Afghan civilians - World - CBC News
Now MacKay is calling it a "cowardly" act of violence?
It is many things, but how is it "cowardly". Is it just me or does it seem that either many politicians don't know the meaning of the word or just have a bad habit of calling all violence cowardly?
Now MacKay is calling it a "cowardly" act of violence?
It is many things, but how is it "cowardly". Is it just me or does it seem that either many politicians don't know the meaning of the word or just have a bad habit of calling all violence cowardly?
If true, you don't think gunning down unarmed civilians is cowardly?
How much courage does it take to gun down unarmed women and children?
It takes no courage to eat a sandwich either, but I'd hardly call that cowardly. Cowardly conjures the idea of hiding from danger. For example, If that soldier killed them out of some irrational paranoia that if he did not kill them they'd kill him, then maybe that could be called cowardly.
You obviously never get food off a coffee truck.
It can conjure any image you want I guess. What danger do unarmed women and children pose?
Perhaps ignoble would be a better term. But the thesaurus lists cowardly as a related word.
I stand corrected:
cow·ard·ly
/ˈkaʊərdli/ Show Spelled[kou-erd-lee] Show IPA
adjective 1. lacking courage; contemptibly timid.
2. characteristic of or befitting a coward; despicably mean, covert, or unprincipled: a cowardly attack on a weak, defenseless man.
According to the first definition above, I'd have been right. I was unaware of the second definition: "despicably mean, covert, or unprincipled" it was.
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I'd say the US legal system is murky when it comes to US soldiers killing civilians. Take this case where US marines deliberately killed innocent civilians:
The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. All those killed were civilians[1]. The dead included several children and elderly people, who were shot multiple times at close range while unarmed....An initial Marine Corps communique reported that 15 civilians were killed by the bomb's blast and eight insurgents were subsequently killed when the Marines returned fire against those attacking the convoy.....Time magazine reporter's questions prompted the United States military to open an investigation into the incident. The investigation claimed it found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians, including unarmed men, women and children",...
Iraq Haditha Massacre Shocking Story of Marines Killing Iraq - YouTube
On April 17, 2007, the Marine Corps dropped all charges against Sgt. Sanick P. De la Cruz in exchange for his testimony. Seven other Marines involved in the incident have also been granted immunity.[56]
On August 9, 2007, all charges against Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt and Capt. Randy Stone were dropped.[43] On October 19, Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt's commanding officer decided the charges should be lowered to involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault.[10]
On September 18, 2007, all charges against Captain Lucas McConnell were dropped in exchange for immunity and his cooperation with the investigation.[57]
On March 28, 2008, all charges against LCpl. Stephen Tatum were dropped.[58]
On June 17, 2008, all charges against Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani were dismissed by the military judge citing unlawful command influence.[59] The Marine Corps appealed that ruling in 2008.[60] On March 17, 2009, a military appeals court upheld the dismissal of the war crimes charges against Chessani.[61] Facing an administrative Board of Inquiry, it also found no misconduct and recommended that Chessani be allowed to retire without loss of rank.[62]
On June 5, 2008, 1stLt Andrew Grayson was acquitted of all charges stemming from the Haditha incident. He had been charged with deleting photos of the deceased Iraqis in order to obstruct the investigation. He had also been charged with failing to notify the Marine Corps administrative chain of command of his legal status when his term of service was expired and he was discharged from the Marine Corps.[63]
The court martial of Wuterich, the only defendant to stand trial for the Haditha killings, took place in January 2012. During the trial Sgt. Sanick Dela Cruz testified that he urinated on the skull of one of the dead Iraqis.[64] He also testified, after describing how Wuterich shot the passengers of the car himself from close range, "Sergeant Wuterich approached me and told me if anyone asks, the Iraqis were running away from the car and the Iraqi army shot them".[65] In a plea deal, Wuterich pled guilty to dereliction of duty, while charges of assault and manslaughter were dropped.[16] He was convicted of a single count of negligent dereliction of duty on January 24, 2012, receiving a rank reduction and pay cut but avoiding jail time.[13]
Haditha killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Which begs the question:
Oprah: Why do they hate us so much?
Madeleine: I think it's partly because we are who we are. They don't believe in our system of government. The Taliban hate us because we believe in equality for women. And we could assume that Osama bin Laden might hate Americans because he thinks our presence in the Middle East has desanctified sacred land. So there are different reasons. There have been very interesting discussions about whether the terrorists who attacked the United States are crazy. I'm willing to buy that they're not irrational, they're just determined in their version of fanaticism.
Read more:Oprah Interviews Madeleine Albright - Oprah.com
The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. All those killed were civilians[1]. The dead included several children and elderly people, who were shot multiple times at close range while unarmed....An initial Marine Corps communique reported that 15 civilians were killed by the bomb's blast and eight insurgents were subsequently killed when the Marines returned fire against those attacking the convoy.....Time magazine reporter's questions prompted the United States military to open an investigation into the incident. The investigation claimed it found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians, including unarmed men, women and children",...
Iraq Haditha Massacre Shocking Story of Marines Killing Iraq - YouTube
On April 17, 2007, the Marine Corps dropped all charges against Sgt. Sanick P. De la Cruz in exchange for his testimony. Seven other Marines involved in the incident have also been granted immunity.[56]
On August 9, 2007, all charges against Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt and Capt. Randy Stone were dropped.[43] On October 19, Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt's commanding officer decided the charges should be lowered to involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault.[10]
On September 18, 2007, all charges against Captain Lucas McConnell were dropped in exchange for immunity and his cooperation with the investigation.[57]
On March 28, 2008, all charges against LCpl. Stephen Tatum were dropped.[58]
On June 17, 2008, all charges against Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani were dismissed by the military judge citing unlawful command influence.[59] The Marine Corps appealed that ruling in 2008.[60] On March 17, 2009, a military appeals court upheld the dismissal of the war crimes charges against Chessani.[61] Facing an administrative Board of Inquiry, it also found no misconduct and recommended that Chessani be allowed to retire without loss of rank.[62]
On June 5, 2008, 1stLt Andrew Grayson was acquitted of all charges stemming from the Haditha incident. He had been charged with deleting photos of the deceased Iraqis in order to obstruct the investigation. He had also been charged with failing to notify the Marine Corps administrative chain of command of his legal status when his term of service was expired and he was discharged from the Marine Corps.[63]
The court martial of Wuterich, the only defendant to stand trial for the Haditha killings, took place in January 2012. During the trial Sgt. Sanick Dela Cruz testified that he urinated on the skull of one of the dead Iraqis.[64] He also testified, after describing how Wuterich shot the passengers of the car himself from close range, "Sergeant Wuterich approached me and told me if anyone asks, the Iraqis were running away from the car and the Iraqi army shot them".[65] In a plea deal, Wuterich pled guilty to dereliction of duty, while charges of assault and manslaughter were dropped.[16] He was convicted of a single count of negligent dereliction of duty on January 24, 2012, receiving a rank reduction and pay cut but avoiding jail time.[13]
Haditha killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Which begs the question:
Oprah: Why do they hate us so much?
Madeleine: I think it's partly because we are who we are. They don't believe in our system of government. The Taliban hate us because we believe in equality for women. And we could assume that Osama bin Laden might hate Americans because he thinks our presence in the Middle East has desanctified sacred land. So there are different reasons. There have been very interesting discussions about whether the terrorists who attacked the United States are crazy. I'm willing to buy that they're not irrational, they're just determined in their version of fanaticism.
Read more:Oprah Interviews Madeleine Albright - Oprah.com
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This isn't about every bad thing you can dig up. It's about ONE specific incident. To cloud the issue is to propagandize it.
At the start of this whole fiasco after 9/11, I was all for going to Afghanistan to take care of things. Then that started to falter as time went on, Bush forgot bin Laden and left the soldiers there to rot.
Now, I'm all for getting the troops out. Screw the Afghans; they don't want our help, they don't want to progress and they don't want to do anything except complain about everything. Even if our guys do good, they've got something to bitch about. Fine, we get the hint, leaving.
I feel sorry for anyone there that wishes for change, that wants it, but if they want it that bad, they should GTFO before the soldiers pull out because when they do, it's going to all go back to hell.
As for this guy who killed the civilians; put him to trial, find him guilty, and end his life just like the US has done to any other psycho mass murderer. Just because he's a soldier doesn't exempt him. Sure he could have snapped, quite logical really, but because of this, every soldier over there is more at risk for death now more than ever. He didn't just kill sixteen people, but because of his actions, anyone else on the coalition side after.
Time to go; and when the Afghans start whining and bitching about how the world abandoned them and oh their poor people and poor children, tell them they brought this on themselves when their own people would not accept the help offered.
Now, I'm all for getting the troops out. Screw the Afghans; they don't want our help, they don't want to progress and they don't want to do anything except complain about everything. Even if our guys do good, they've got something to bitch about. Fine, we get the hint, leaving.
I feel sorry for anyone there that wishes for change, that wants it, but if they want it that bad, they should GTFO before the soldiers pull out because when they do, it's going to all go back to hell.
As for this guy who killed the civilians; put him to trial, find him guilty, and end his life just like the US has done to any other psycho mass murderer. Just because he's a soldier doesn't exempt him. Sure he could have snapped, quite logical really, but because of this, every soldier over there is more at risk for death now more than ever. He didn't just kill sixteen people, but because of his actions, anyone else on the coalition side after.
Time to go; and when the Afghans start whining and bitching about how the world abandoned them and oh their poor people and poor children, tell them they brought this on themselves when their own people would not accept the help offered.
Frackin trigger-happy, brain-dead, drunken idiots.
Seems that at least a few Americans think nothing of inviting more terrorist attacks on the US. It's just as well that DUHbama pulls the military out of Afghanistan.
A trained soldier firing upon kids and other civilians? How is that not cowardly? It's hardly courageous to do something like that.
From Oxford's dictionary:
cowardly
Pronunciation: /ˈkaʊədli/
adjective
lacking courage:
he was a weak, cowardly man
(of an action) carried out against a person who is unable to retaliate:
a cowardly attack on a helpless victim
adverb
archaic
in a way which shows a lack of courage.
Derivatives
cowardliness
noun
As mentioned above, I was unaware of that other definition. The only definition I knew was "lacking courage". I stand corrected.
Nope. You were wrong in any case. It does not take courage for a trained soldier to open fire on kids and other civilians. That makes it cowardly.
How so? In one sence, going out and killing people, knowing the possibility of court martial and facing a firing squad, is not entirely cowardly according to the most basic sense of the word, only according to its secondary sense which I'd initially ignored.
One could even argue tht it does take a kind of "courage".
Uhuh. I'm sure that the women and kids in Afghanistan really want to continue suffering "abuse at the hands of their husbands, fathers, brothers, armed individuals, parallel legal systems, and institutions of the state, including the police and justice system."
RAWA.ORG: The Women of Afghanistan: Abandoned
.... and doing it anyway is called "stupidity", not "courage".
Only if you spin the context of the word.
You could if you wish. I'd prefer "stupidity".
And maybe this guy's brain snapped. It is not uncommon for people under war conditions to have a complete mental breakdown. Some become vegetables and others go berserk. I doubt that any sane person could do something this horrendous.