U.S. automaker bailout package dies in Senate

[JLM]

I make around $15 an hour. I have a house, my car is paid off, and I have extra money to spend when I need it. I agree that people making almost $30/hour can afford to take a wage cut. However, it is not the wages that hurts the companies. It is the benefits packages. If those were changed it could make a huge difference.

You need a certain amout of money to live but anything beyond that isn't too important. When I started drawing the OAP, I lost the bridging on my superannuation, which was about $360 more than the OAP, but after the second month I never even missed it, it's just what you get used to. There's so many more important things in life than the almighty dollar once you got your three square a day, clothing shelter, transportation and health care.

 

[lone wolf]

If the "Big 3" go into bankruptcy, trustees will be appointed to run things - at much less cost than the dead weight at the top. Impatient investors will lose their shirts. Former employees will likely get first crack at the jobs - likely for lower pay on a contract basis. Since the Union contracts are with GM or Ford or Chrysler, UAW is no longer a bargaining unit. They can coerce, con and cry all they want, but in the end the pockets they pick will look out for their own interests. Hurting workers have families to feed and bills to pay.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

If the "Big 3" go into bankruptcy, trustees will be appointed to run things - at much less cost than the dead weight at the top. Impatient investors will lose their shirts. Former employees will likely get first crack at the jobs - likely for lower pay on a contract basis. Since the Union contracts are with GM or Ford or Chrysler, UAW is no longer a bargaining unit. They can coerce, con and cry all they want, but in the end the pockets they pick will look out for their own interests. Hurting workers have families to feed and bills to pay.

Good evening LW, we look at this whole mess, it was self created, manufacturing cars that had 10 time the necessary power to go to the mall. The real beneficiary of building this humongous obscene vehicles and I am talking about the Chevy crew cab 2008 with a Duramax diesel 4X4 are the Oil cartel and the oil companies.
Neither one of these two greedy pigs the Oil Cartel as well the Oil Companys has made any gestures to help the source (the auto makers) that helps them sell gas at the pumps, instead they keep shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. That is how screwed up this is.

In my view the end result will be that as you are suggesting the bankruptcy scenario, further hurting the North American economy and thus les gas sales as a result of all this mess. Do I think that we may see a 60 cent liter soon?, who knows?….

 

[Risus]

If the "Big 3" go into bankruptcy, trustees will be appointed to run things - at much less cost than the dead weight at the top. Impatient investors will lose their shirts. Former employees will likely get first crack at the jobs - likely for lower pay on a contract basis. Since the Union contracts are with GM or Ford or Chrysler, UAW is no longer a bargaining unit. They can coerce, con and cry all they want, but in the end the pockets they pick will look out for their own interests. Hurting workers have families to feed and bills to pay.

I'm not so sure that the UAW will be out of the picture, from what I've seen with other bankruptcies...

 

[Machjo]

And who is going to foot the bill for thousands upon thousands of people without a job? With tuition costing gross amounts of money, I wonder if they would rather pay to keep their house rather than pay for schooling. And the ones who have been in this industry for over 20 years? It would be easier said than done to educate them on technological studies.

It is not just the auto industry that suffers if it collapses. There are a LOT of companies that rely on it and they will collapse along with the auto industry if nothing is done.

We have no choicering. Now is the time for economic restructuring, like it or not. Retrain, reorganize. Our job is to ensure no one goes destitute, but moderate poverty will be inevitable, and we must all do our part through lower wages and government slashing of unnecessary expenses to retrain for new industries. no point whipping a dead horse.


Painful but necessary. indians can now do the jobs we can, but at much lower price. it's just the reality and there is nothing we can do about it but reeducate and restructure.

 

[JLM]

"We have no choicering. Now is the time for economic restructuring, like it or not. Retrain, reorganize. Our job is to ensure no one goes destitute,"- ABSOLUTLY and make sure every employee is a contributor and there are no parasites allowed on a worksite or drawing wages. Unions are good but should be solely involved with safety issues and keep their noses out of the financial end of things.

 

[mit]

According to GM, the UAW average wage is $39.68 an hour. That works out to about $2232.00 per week. Go further down that road and you get something over a hundred thousand a year.
The UAW says the average wage is lower but a man with a "High School Degree", (their words) can make much more.....:roll:
No wonder they are going broke.

You may be surprised at how many degrees are spread out along the assembly line. These are not uneducated people that are putting your cars together anymore - They are people that could not find employment in their chosen fields so lucked in to a well paying job and chose not to leave for the much lower salary of their fellows graduates that service an overpopulated sector of the economy. If you graduated with a teachers certificate in the 80's their were no jobs to be found. If in the 90's you graduated with a graphics art or ECE diploma again only lowpaying jobs or none were available - There are thousands of english - political science - economics and social majors that graduate every year to find themselves with a high debt load and low job prospects. We have been churning out social experimentalists from our university and given up on the trades - manufacturing - engineering - health sciences and the like and created a dirth of educated whiners that populate what is left of the manufacturing industries with their socialistic ideas that the dirt under a person's fingernails is not worth the degree on their wall. China - India etc. are pumping out engineers in all the fields who study North American methods (Remember Japan's economic might came courtesy of an American who could not find anyone to listen to him in his home country (Juran) )
No wonder we are getting beat up - We have thought we were better than the rest of the world and did not want to stoop to the lows of toilet repair - auto assembly and mining - (Alberta had to import foreign workers for their rigs at wages much higher than a auto assembler!)

 

[mit]

"We have no choicering. Now is the time for economic restructuring, like it or not. Retrain, reorganize. Our job is to ensure no one goes destitute,"- ABSOLUTLY and make sure every employee is a contributor and there are no parasites allowed on a worksite or drawing wages. Unions are good but should be solely involved with safety issues and keep their noses out of the financial end of things.

What are we going to retrain them for? Administrative assistants that can process EI claims faster?

 

[mit]

Good evening LW, we look at this whole mess, it was self created, manufacturing cars that had 10 time the necessary power to go to the mall. The real beneficiary of building this humongous obscene vehicles and I am talking about the Chevy crew cab 2008 with a Duramax diesel 4X4 are the Oil cartel and the oil companies.
Neither one of these two greedy pigs the Oil Cartel as well the Oil Companys has made any gestures to help the source (the auto makers) that helps them sell gas at the pumps, instead they keep shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. That is how screwed up this is.

In my view the end result will be that as you are suggesting the bankruptcy scenario, further hurting the North American economy and thus les gas sales as a result of all this mess. Do I think that we may see a 60 cent liter soon?, who knows?….

Look at the investments in North America by Toyota and Honda - They have not been building plants to make small efficient green vehicles - They have been building van plants - pick up trucks and SUV's and crossover vehicles and luxury cars - That is where the profitable sales have always been until now - These 2 companies have also been hit - Toyota is projecting a billion dollar loss this quarter. It's the economic conditions that have sideswiped this industry -

 

[mit]

The auto industry is being treated as economic terrorists - They produce evil products that hurt our environment and make too much money while they do it. They however produce a product that we want - Doesn't matter if you take a bus or a car or buy products the auto-industry touches it.

Farmers on the other hand get billions in subsidies to produce a product we need but do not want to pay a fair price for. Nobody complains about their 250,000 dollar combine or their $45,000 four wheel drive crew cab pick up they drive to the local coffee shop to whine about low prices. Nobody turns the tap off their funding when the price of their product goes up and they expand - flooding the market with product that drives the price down below the cost of production.

Then we have the bottled water industry that was built on years of research that says we should drink more water and they turn it in to a lucrative business that turns us away from chemically laden soft drinks and coffee but now are the arch enemies of the environmental movement because people are too lazy to separate their plastic in the blue box or municipalities can't afford to have someone do this in their civic centers and schools.

We are going to H-E-Double Hockey Sticks in a hand basket and like the cow approaching that nice looking man with an air operated bolt driver we do not realize that the rod will be driving through our skull and we will be appearing on a plate soon for dinner. Anarchy is a good option folks - if we can't get our politicians to stop nannying us and actually let us look after ourselves!

 

[Machjo]

What are we going to retrain them for? Administrative assistants that can process EI claims faster?

A few options:

1. Shift taxes from income to resources. This would automatically discourage people from importing, encourage them to buy local, and put a stop to subeurban sprawl. This would promote the consturction of higher-density housing too. Lower income tax would also make lower salaries more palatable too.

2. Build enclosed year-round bicycle tunnels. this would help the poor and the environment, and cause a boom in the bicycle industry. Bring bicycles high-tech, electric bicycles too why not?

3. Cut spending on second-language instruction except for a common easy second language. Within a generation, Canadian companies and all levels of government would no longer need to hire interpreters and translators for pan-Canadian communication. this would make all levels of government, and the private sector, the military, police, paramedics, hospitals and others more efficient. The savings from this could be redirected towards re-education. restructuring our language policy along more technocratic lines would create many jobs too since it would mean retraining EFL and FLS teachers to teachers to teach the new and easier common second language. we'd need teachers for the teachers.
4. Cut funding to the arts, and redirect that towards education. people's livelyhood takes precedence over the arts.
5. invest in telecommuting technologies and re-training for that.

6. add solar panels to homes. Bicycle tunnels could be solar powered too.

7. provide free education in organic gardening and vegetarian cookery. For some people, it could be a career opportunity. And for the rest, good home economics and ecology, so still not a waste of money. This could also help the poor by ensuring that they know how to cook rather than go to restaurants all the time.
8. See is we can share a military with other nations. The money saved could also pay for the retraining.

yet none of these would be make work jobs since they would focus on making our system more efficient in the long run, and so would be an investment. Restrurt
uring could also make the rich more interested in cycling and other money-saving activities. this would make them more willing to give to charity too. Let's cut the fat out of our system. That could be ajob in and of itself. Let's make fat-cutting our new industry.

 

[#juan]

The auto industry is being treated as economic terrorists - They produce evil products that hurt our environment and make too much money while they do it. They however produce a product that we want - Doesn't matter if you take a bus or a car or buy products the auto-industry touches it.

The problem is that they don't produce what we want. What we want is being produced at the Toyota plants, and the Nissan plants.

 

[mit]

A few options:

1. Shift taxes from income to resources. This would automatically discourage people from importing, encourage them to buy local, and put a stop to subeurban sprawl. This would promote the consturction of higher-density housing too. Lower income tax would also make lower salaries more palatable too.

2. Build enclosed year-round bicycle tunnels. this would help the poor and the environment, and cause a boom in the bicycle industry. Bring bicycles high-tech, electric bicycles too why not?

3. Cut spending on second-language instruction except for a common easy second language. Within a generation, Canadian companies and all levels of government would no longer need to hire interpreters and translators for pan-Canadian communication. this would make all levels of government, and the private sector, the military, police, paramedics, hospitals and others more efficient. The savings from this could be redirected towards re-education. restructuring our language policy along more technocratic lines would create many jobs too since it would mean retraining EFL and FLS teachers to teachers to teach the new and easier common second language. we'd need teachers for the teachers.
4. Cut funding to the arts, and redirect that towards education. people's livelyhood takes precedence over the arts.
5. invest in telecommuting technologies and re-training for that.

6. add solar panels to homes. Bicycle tunnels could be solar powered too.

7. provide free education in organic gardening and vegetarian cookery. For some people, it could be a career opportunity. And for the rest, good home economics and ecology, so still not a waste of money. This could also help the poor by ensuring that they know how to cook rather than go to restaurants all the time.
8. See is we can share a military with other nations. The money saved could also pay for the retraining.

yet none of these would be make work jobs since they would focus on making our system more efficient in the long run, and so would be an investment. Restrurt
uring could also make the rich more interested in cycling and other money-saving activities. this would make them more willing to give to charity too. Let's cut the fat out of our system. That could be ajob in and of itself. Let's make fat-cutting our new industry.

We have to rely less on Government and more on ourselves - Governments need to shift responsibility back to the community - Mike Harris tried but failed in it's implementation because he also did things to get re-elected - Harper beileves in this theory but feels Canadians do not have the stomach for it - Sadly he is right on both counts.

 

[Machjo]

We have to rely less on Government and more on ourselves - Governments need to shift responsibility back to the community - Mike Harris tried but failed in it's implementation because he also did things to get re-elected - Harper beileves in this theory but feels Canadians do not have the stomach for it - Sadly he is right on both counts.

You may or may not have noticed that there are two sides to my personality on this forum. One is the idealist one, the other the pragmatist one. And I generally try to blend both in. My idealist side does indeed prefer less government. My pragmatist side, however, proclaims that IF the government insists on increasing government involvment and I have no say in that part, but have a say in HOW the money will be spent, then these are my recommendations.

Certainly I could yell all day for less government involvement, but IF it must come, then let's at least ensure that it's spent wisely. And I believe that the best industry the government could get involved in is the social cybernetic industry (i.e. figuring out how to make society as economically efficient as possible). Of course the down side is that it's a double edged sword because then the government is actually hiring people to restructure the economy so as to need fewer people. I'm sure you see the vicious cycle this could put us in.

But I see no problem with that since in the event that these jobs do in fact simply end more jobs, then all the savings from these efficiencies could go towards simply giving more to charity, which benefits mankind.

So yes, I'd rather less government involvement, but I have no say in that, then let's at least ensure that we use the money wisely.

I look at it as a plan B, because if I just focus on no government involvement, then I have no say in how the government will spend my money if it does decide on spending it.

 

[JLM]

What are we going to retrain them for? Administrative assistants that can process EI claims faster?

"RETRAIN"?????????// Were they ever trained?

 

[JLM]

"According to GM, the UAW average wage is $39.68 an hour. That works out to about $2232.00 per week."- Well, I'll buy $1590 but still it IS a lot of money, more than a lot of people make in an entire month. And it's not like there's heavy physical labour involved these days.

 

[#juan]

Some of these guys are absolutely the best at putting in the third screw on the right front door hinge. Not a lot of call for that particular skill but it's there if we need it....;-)

 

[mit]

"According to GM, the UAW average wage is $39.68 an hour. That works out to about $2232.00 per week."- Well, I'll buy $1590 but still it IS a lot of money, more than a lot of people make in an entire month. And it's not like there's heavy physical labour involved these days.

It is repetitive work that taxes your joints and wears out your body - Until recently Toyota hired workers every year - They hire people on contract - pay a good wage but if they complain their joints are sore their contract is not renewed and theyget another warm body for the assembly line - Not that Toyota is the only one doing this - this is repeated time and time again in companies that hire Temp workers (A booming and profitable business) If you do not like the temp - get another one - none of the messy and costly business of letting a full time employee go. Having a workplace full of workers in fear of their jobs does not add to the growth or profitability of the enterprise. It is not just factories that do this - Take a cashier at the local grocery store - They use one arm repeatedly - are forced to stand for long hours and are usually wiped out at the end of their shift - Their hours are kept to the casual level so they can be replaced quite easily and the employee knows this and shuts up in fear of their job that only pays minimum wage. Our 30 seconds we deal with them seems like they have a job that is easy and only worth their minimum salary as we hand over $200 in payment for goods that we had to do the work to bring to the counter. Now we pack our own bags some that we paid for ourselves - process our items through self check-outs - swipe our debit card and leave without any human interaction - We do all the work and the grocer or big box store gets the money - And we think it is progress. Doesn't seem to do anything to make shopping a better experience in my mind.

 

[mit]

You may or may not have noticed that there are two sides to my personality on this forum. One is the idealist one, the other the pragmatist one. And I generally try to blend both in. My idealist side does indeed prefer less government. My pragmatist side, however, proclaims that IF the government insists on increasing government involvment and I have no say in that part, but have a say in HOW the money will be spent, then these are my recommendations.

Certainly I could yell all day for less government involvement, but IF it must come, then let's at least ensure that it's spent wisely. And I believe that the best industry the government could get involved in is the social cybernetic industry (i.e. figuring out how to make society as economically efficient as possible). Of course the down side is that it's a double edged sword because then the government is actually hiring people to restructure the economy so as to need fewer people. I'm sure you see the vicious cycle this could put us in.

But I see no problem with that since in the event that these jobs do in fact simply end more jobs, then all the savings from these efficiencies could go towards simply giving more to charity, which benefits mankind.

So yes, I'd rather less government involvement, but I have no say in that, then let's at least ensure that we use the money wisely.

I look at it as a plan B, because if I just focus on no government involvement, then I have no say in how the government will spend my money if it does decide on spending it.

Perhaps you are cursed with the gift of being a whole brained thinker - An idealist with ideas - People nod their heads at you in agreement but you could never get elected as you make sense not promises - We get what we vote for

 

[Tyr]

"According to GM, the UAW average wage is $39.68 an hour. That works out to about $2232.00 per week."- Well, I'll buy $1590 but still it IS a lot of money, more than a lot of people make in an entire month. And it's not like there's heavy physical labour involved these days.

I've heard a blended rate of $28.12/hr US for all unionized employees (that goes from the cafeteria staff, janitors to engine testers). Still that's nearly $57,000/yr to serves fries, sweep the floor or put that proverbial third screw into a Taurus bumper.

The workers at Honda, Nissan, Kia, etc... make on average $3/hr less and their benefits cost about 40% less to the employer

I've also read where it's up to ~$79/hr if it's just the unionized factory worker with benefits factored in.

Now THAT"S a lot of coin.

If there is to be any progress in the bailout, the UAW will have to be willing to give major PERMANENT concessions. If not, look for Chrysler to fold and GM to be radically scaled back (possibly bankruptcy protection)