Turkey in warning to Israel: You have one day to apologize for Gaza flotilla raid

IdRatherBeSkiing

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May 28, 2007
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Are you suggesting a flotilla of humanitarian goods (verified by Turkish military) is part of a Muslim attack?

Certainly if Turkey was aiming to make a point, they would make sure the first couple shipments escorted with warships were completely above board. This would turn international favour their way should an incident arise. I have no doubt that subsequent shipments would not be so humanitarian but the precident would be set.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Certainly if Turkey was aiming to make a point, they would make sure the first couple shipments escorted with warships were completely above board. This would turn international favour their way should an incident arise. I have no doubt that subsequent shipments would not be so humanitarian but the precident would be set.

The Israeli's will not allow Turkey or any country to break the blockade- They, Israel are legally in the right. If they allow Turkey to do this then Iran would be next and so on.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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The Israeli's will not allow Turkey or any country to break the blockade- They, Israel are legally in the right. If they allow Turkey to do this then Iran would be next and so on.

Well, then I guess this comes down to a pissing contest to see who blinks. It certainly looks like Turkey is definatly trying to provoke this for whatever reason.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Well, then I guess this comes down to a pissing contest to see who blinks. It certainly looks like Turkey is definatly trying to provoke this for whatever reason.

Then look to the shift in power to an Islamic Govt - Te attacks on the press that questions policy - The fact that Turkey is not a part of the EU - That they are trying to replace Egypt as the power broker in the Mid East - a large military - heavily subsidized by the US and NATO -

A war even short would allow the govt to charge enemies, show trials and special courts - all of the last is a possibility.

Lastly - The general average Joe in Turkey hates Israel -
 

MHz

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The Israeli's will not allow Turkey or any country to break the blockade- They, Israel are legally in the right. If they allow Turkey to do this then Iran would be next and so on.
Israel doesn't have the legal right to stop ships that are carrying humanitarian goods. That also means the ships nor crew nor passengers can be seized and prevented from continuing on to Gaza after the cargo has been inspected.

CHAPTER II

CONTRABAND OF WAR

Art. 22. The following articles may, without notice (1), be treated as contraband of war, under the
name of absolute contraband:
(1) Arms of all kinds, including arms for sporting purposes, and their distinctive component parts.
(2) Projectiles, charges, and cartridges of all kinds, and their distinctive component parts.
(3) Powder and explosives specially prepared for use in war.
(4) Gun-mountings, limber boxes, limbers, military waggons, field forges, and their distinctive component parts.
(5) Clothing and equipment of a distinctively military character.
(6) All kinds of harness of a distinctively military character.
(7) Saddle, draught, and pack animals suitable for use in war.
(8) Articles of camp equipment, and their distinctive component parts.
(9) Armour plates.
(10)Warships, including boats, and their distinctive component parts of such a nature that they can only be used on a vessel of war.
(11)Implements and apparatus designed exclusively for the manufacture of munitions of war, for the manufacture or repair of arms, or war material for use on land or sea.

(1) In view of the difficulty of finding an exact equivalent in English for the expression "de plein droit", it has been decided to translate it by the words "without notice," which represent the meaning attached to it by the draftsman as appears from the General Report see p. 44 ' (note in the original) '.


Art. 23. Articles exclusively used for war may be added to the list of absolute contraband by a declaration, which must be notified.
Such notification must be addressed to the Governments of other Powers, or to their representatives accredited to the Power making the declaration. A notification made after the outbreak of hostilities is addressed only to neutral Powers.


Art. 24. The following articles, susceptible of use in war as well as for purposes of peace, may, without notice (1), be treated as contraband of war, under the name of conditional contraband:
(1) Foodstuffs.
(2) Forage and grain, suitable for feeding animals.
(3) Clothing, fabrics for clothing, and boots and shoes, suitable for use in war.
(4) Gold and silver in coin or bullion; paper money.
(5) Vehicles of all kinds available for use in war, and their component parts.
(6) Vessels, craft, and boats of all kinds; floating docks, parts of docks and their component parts.
(7) Railway material, both fixed and rolling-stock, and material for telegraphs, wireless telegraphs, and telephones.
(8) Balloons and flying machines and their distinctive component parts, together with accessories and articles recognizable as intended for use in connection with balloons and flying machines.
(9) Fuel; lubricants.
(10)Powder and explosives not specially prepared for use in war.
(11)Barbed wire and implements for fixing and cutting the same.
(12)Horseshoes and shoeing materials.
(13)Harness and saddlery.
(14)Field glasses, telescopes, chronometers, and all kinds of nautical instruments.

(1) See note relative to Article 22.


Art. 25. Articles susceptive of use in war as well as for purposes of peace, other than those enumerated in Articles 22 and 24, may be added to the list of conditional contraband by a declaration, which must be notified in the manner provided for in the second paragraph of Article 23.


Art. 26. If a Power waives, so far as it is concerned, the right to treat as contraband of war an article comprised in any of the classes enumerated in Articles 22 and 24, such intention shall be announced by a declaration, which must be notified in the manner provided for in the second paragraph of Article 23.


Art. 27. Articles which are not susceptible of use in war may not be declared contraband of war.


Art. 28. The following may not be declared contraband
of war:
(1) Raw cotton, wool, silk, jute, flax, hemp, and other raw materials of the textile industries, and yarns of the same.
(2) Oil seeds and nuts; copra.
(3) Rubber, resins, gums, and lacs; hops.
(4) Raw hides and horns, bones, and ivory.
(5) Natural and artificial manures, including nitrates and phosphates for agricultural purposes.
(6) Metallic ores.
(7) Earths, clays, lime, chalk, stone, including marble, bricks, slates, and tiles.
(8) Chinaware and glass.
(9) Paper and paper-making materials.
(10)Soap, paint and colours, including articles exclusively used in their manufacture, and varnish.
(11)Bleaching powder, soda ash, caustic soda, salt cake, ammonia, sulphate of ammonia, and sulphate of copper.
(12)Agricultural, mining, textile, and printing machinery.
(13)Precious and semi-precious stones, pearls, mother-of-pearl, and coral.
(14)Clocks and watches, other than chronometers.
(15)Fashion and fancy goods.
(16)Feathers of all kinds, hairs, and bristles.
(17)Articles of household furniture and decoration; office furniture and requisites.


Art. 29. Likewise the following may not be treated as contraband of war:
(1) Articles serving exclusively to aid the sick and wounded. They can, however, in case of urgent military necessity and subject to the payment of compensation, be requisitioned, if their destination is that specified in Article 30.
(2) Articles intended for the use of the vessel in which they are found, as well as those intended for the use of her crew and passengers during the voyage.
International Humanitarian Law - London Declaration 1909

International Humanitarian Law - San Remo Manual 1994 (section 103)


If Turkey could show that Israel had some part (including having a 3rd party do their bidding) in the bombing of their Naval Base and the death of several Sailors then that would be an act of war by itself and Turkey would have every right to supply armed escorts to any ship headed for Gaza as long as the cargo did not conflict with this list.

Certainly if Turkey was aiming to make a point, they would make sure the first couple shipments escorted with warships were completely above board. This would turn international favour their way should an incident arise. I have no doubt that subsequent shipments would not be so humanitarian but the precident would be set.
It would certainly make Israel show the complete list of what it considers 'banned items' rather than confiscate it all and then decide what they will keep and what they will let through.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Israel doesn't have the legal right to stop ships that are carrying humanitarian goods. That also means the ships nor crew nor passengers can be seized and prevented from continuing on to Gaza after the cargo has been inspected.

CHAPTER II

CONTRABAND OF WAR

Art. 22. The following articles may, without notice (1), be treated as contraband of war, under the
name of absolute contraband:
(1) Arms of all kinds, including arms for sporting purposes, and their distinctive component parts.
(2) Projectiles, charges, and cartridges of all kinds, and their distinctive component parts.
(3) Powder and explosives specially prepared for use in war.
(4) Gun-mountings, limber boxes, limbers, military waggons, field forges, and their distinctive component parts.
(5) Clothing and equipment of a distinctively military character.
(6) All kinds of harness of a distinctively military character.
(7) Saddle, draught, and pack animals suitable for use in war.
(8) Articles of camp equipment, and their distinctive component parts.
(9) Armour plates.
(10)Warships, including boats, and their distinctive component parts of such a nature that they can only be used on a vessel of war.
(11)Implements and apparatus designed exclusively for the manufacture of munitions of war, for the manufacture or repair of arms, or war material for use on land or sea.

(1) In view of the difficulty of finding an exact equivalent in English for the expression "de plein droit", it has been decided to translate it by the words "without notice," which represent the meaning attached to it by the draftsman as appears from the General Report see p. 44 ' (note in the original) '.


Art. 23. Articles exclusively used for war may be added to the list of absolute contraband by a declaration, which must be notified.
Such notification must be addressed to the Governments of other Powers, or to their representatives accredited to the Power making the declaration. A notification made after the outbreak of hostilities is addressed only to neutral Powers.


Art. 24. The following articles, susceptible of use in war as well as for purposes of peace, may, without notice (1), be treated as contraband of war, under the name of conditional contraband:
(1) Foodstuffs.
(2) Forage and grain, suitable for feeding animals.
(3) Clothing, fabrics for clothing, and boots and shoes, suitable for use in war.
(4) Gold and silver in coin or bullion; paper money.
(5) Vehicles of all kinds available for use in war, and their component parts.
(6) Vessels, craft, and boats of all kinds; floating docks, parts of docks and their component parts.
(7) Railway material, both fixed and rolling-stock, and material for telegraphs, wireless telegraphs, and telephones.
(8) Balloons and flying machines and their distinctive component parts, together with accessories and articles recognizable as intended for use in connection with balloons and flying machines.
(9) Fuel; lubricants.
(10)Powder and explosives not specially prepared for use in war.
(11)Barbed wire and implements for fixing and cutting the same.
(12)Horseshoes and shoeing materials.
(13)Harness and saddlery.
(14)Field glasses, telescopes, chronometers, and all kinds of nautical instruments.

(1) See note relative to Article 22.


Art. 25. Articles susceptive of use in war as well as for purposes of peace, other than those enumerated in Articles 22 and 24, may be added to the list of conditional contraband by a declaration, which must be notified in the manner provided for in the second paragraph of Article 23.


Art. 26. If a Power waives, so far as it is concerned, the right to treat as contraband of war an article comprised in any of the classes enumerated in Articles 22 and 24, such intention shall be announced by a declaration, which must be notified in the manner provided for in the second paragraph of Article 23.


Art. 27. Articles which are not susceptible of use in war may not be declared contraband of war.


Art. 28. The following may not be declared contraband
of war:
(1) Raw cotton, wool, silk, jute, flax, hemp, and other raw materials of the textile industries, and yarns of the same.
(2) Oil seeds and nuts; copra.
(3) Rubber, resins, gums, and lacs; hops.
(4) Raw hides and horns, bones, and ivory.
(5) Natural and artificial manures, including nitrates and phosphates for agricultural purposes.
(6) Metallic ores.
(7) Earths, clays, lime, chalk, stone, including marble, bricks, slates, and tiles.
(8) Chinaware and glass.
(9) Paper and paper-making materials.
(10)Soap, paint and colours, including articles exclusively used in their manufacture, and varnish.
(11)Bleaching powder, soda ash, caustic soda, salt cake, ammonia, sulphate of ammonia, and sulphate of copper.
(12)Agricultural, mining, textile, and printing machinery.
(13)Precious and semi-precious stones, pearls, mother-of-pearl, and coral.
(14)Clocks and watches, other than chronometers.
(15)Fashion and fancy goods.
(16)Feathers of all kinds, hairs, and bristles.
(17)Articles of household furniture and decoration; office furniture and requisites.


Art. 29. Likewise the following may not be treated as contraband of war:
(1) Articles serving exclusively to aid the sick and wounded. They can, however, in case of urgent military necessity and subject to the payment of compensation, be requisitioned, if their destination is that specified in Article 30.
(2) Articles intended for the use of the vessel in which they are found, as well as those intended for the use of her crew and passengers during the voyage.
International Humanitarian Law - London Declaration 1909

International Humanitarian Law - San Remo Manual 1994 (section 103)


If Turkey could show that Israel had some part (including having a 3rd party do their bidding) in the bombing of their Naval Base and the death of several Sailors then that would be an act of war by itself and Turkey would have every right to supply armed escorts to any ship headed for Gaza as long as the cargo did not conflict with this list.


It would certainly make Israel show the complete list of what it considers 'banned items' rather than confiscate it all and then decide what they will keep and what they will let through.

Does Isreal have the right to inspect the ships load - Yes - Cannot do that at sea now can they.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
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Ontario
The blockade is legal.

Israel can board any ship destined for Gaza.

Israel can direct said ships to a port of their choosing.

They can inspect the load.

They must then let it pass to it's destination.

Israel does not stop aid from reaching Gaza.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Red Deer AB
Does Isreal have the right to inspect the ships load - Yes - Cannot do that at sea now can they.
That's fine, but after the inspection the goods and ship and passengers can continue to their original destination. Far as I know the Mavi is still out of commission. Nor do the blockade rules allow for sabotage of ships that are still in a port waiting to sail, nor does it allow prevention og any such ships leaving ports. The inspections could just as easily be done in the ports where the loading takes place, course that would mean supplying a complete list of what they consider contraband to be. To date only a partial list has ever been released. (as far as I know, the IDF is quite far down on the list of things that I do follow closely)
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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That's fine, but after the inspection the goods and ship and passengers can continue to their original destination. Far as I know the Mavi is still out of commission. Nor do the blockade rules allow for sabotage of ships that are still in a port waiting to sail, nor does it allow prevention og any such ships leaving ports. The inspections could just as easily be done in the ports where the loading takes place, course that would mean supplying a complete list of what they consider contraband to be. To date only a partial list has ever been released. (as far as I know, the IDF is quite far down on the list of things that I do follow closely)

And of course nothing would be loaded on to the ship during transit. After all we have the word of Turkey, Hamas and IHH. Right Dorthy, now click those little red shoes and back to Kansas.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
That's fine, but after the inspection the goods and ship and passengers can continue to their original destination.
Yep. After the ship has been searched from top to bottom, in port.

Far as I know the Mavi is still out of commission.
Why?

The inspections could just as easily be done in the ports where the loading takes place, course that would mean supplying a complete list of what they consider contraband to be.
This is true. But Israel is not required to do so.

To date only a partial list has ever been released.
You mean the list of contraband is short, but you think it should be longer?

(as far as I know, the IDF is quite far down on the list of things that I do follow closely)
By the lack of facts, understanding and commonsense contained in your posts, that is clearly apparent.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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As long as the cargo is inspected by Israel, I have no objection to it being given to Gaza. Gaza gets anything they want through Egypt anyway. These so called flotilla's of so called emergency goods only seem to appease those who keep trying to keep the situation in a crisis mode. (emergency goods seem to have no problem getting into Gaza today).