The discourse of people of Paradise and Hell

[MHz]

Don't see anything about giants in what you quoted. What I see is, surrender immediately and pay tribute and become our servants, or we'll murder all your menfolk, take everyone else hostage, rob you of everything you own, and you'll become our servants anyway. Nice pair of options. Change some of the story's specifics, so that it's not the Israelites taking territory away from the people who already live in it, but somebody else doing, or trying to do, the same thing with the same conditions in some other time and place. Like, say, the Ottoman Turks besieging Vienna in 1529, shortly after they'd massacred the garrison at Buda in Hungary, and making the same threat. I'm not saying they did, just imagine they did. Wouldn't you perceive that as odious? Don't you perceive that story in Deuteronomy as equally odious? It's a biblical story and thus presumably represents god's will; does that make alright?

Genghis Khan would have loved the Old Testament and that ferocious ogre of a tribal deity it tells about. He's one of the nastiest characters in all of literature.

What I quoted was about some not being killed. Giants would be these people, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims, the Ammonites call them Zamzummims, the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, half tribe of Manasseh, all the region of Argob, with all Bashan. That list was wiped out because they were not fully human.
God wanted a certain piece of land, that there happened to be giants in the road made it a two-for-one shot. Got the desired land and got rid if the genitally different race, 11 ft tall and having 24 fingers and toes. He took just enough to establish a place for Jesus to be born. If He was truly blood-thirsty (and stories would have circulated making invasion most unlikely) He could have kept going. You do not know the final fate of those He killed. If they are alive and well when the new earth is revealed then it wasn't all that cruel. (at an individual level).

You don't even have to believe to determine who God was fully intending to make extinct and the reason for that annialiation, while only a few miles away some could be spared.

I'm not claiming God was peaceful back then, peace seems far away when a book is being written that has the title Book of Wars of the LORD. He was after something specific and He killed those who would not yeild. How do you think the rest of the world operated back then? Even then God was operating at minimun capacity. Fire from Heaven that takes out Satan and all other fallen angels near the end of Revelation, it is the biggest sign of God's power that the Bible contains.

I'm sure the people who it effected are the ones whose emotions are most important. Does 1 resurrection equal I death sentence that has been carried out. Nothing in the rules says it has to be quietly in the dead on night. Without having a strong army they would have had endless defensive wars. I don't have much in the way of other sources about cultures back then, other than the same ones that were covered in school. How did Egyptians handle wars and prisoners, did they ever kill them all? Neb carried them away when he invaded, as did Rome. Your example was more about being on the road (taking territory) but not much about like back home. At least that is what info I have at present.

The standards back then might not live upto our current expectations, they didn't have prisons back then, you were either cast out of the group or they killed you. Did other civilizations have jails, big jails?

 

[eanassir]

Why should the apostle fight the idolaters​

When the apostle (any apostle) comes with his message from God – be glorified – he starts to advise his people to follow the monotheism: that God is One without associate or peer.

Then people will divide into two parties: some will believe in him, and the other party will disbelieve.

The apostle (any apostle) main target is to eliminate the idolatry and the association; therefore he will be opposed by the other antagonistic idolaters and enthusiastic party (about their prophets and religious men and symbols.)

Therefore, the apostle (any apostle) will be attacked, even the idolater will try to kill their apostle and those who believed in him and in his monotheism and devotion to God alone.

Then the idolaters (seeing themselves at first powerful) will usually start the offense and transgress on the apostle; therefore the fighting will become mandatory, or else the enemy will annihilate the believers and bar them from worshipping their Lord Almighty.

This is in the Quran 22: 39-41​

أُذِنَ لِلَّذِينَ يُقَاتَلُونَ بِأَنَّهُمْ ظُلِمُوا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى نَصْرِهِمْ لَقَدِيرٌ . الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِن دِيَارِهِمْ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَن يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُم بِبَعْضٍ لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ . الَّذِينَ إِن مَّكَّنَّاهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَمَرُوا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَنَهَوْا عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَلِلَّهِ عَاقِبَةُ الْأُمُورِ​

The explanation:

[The believers in Mecca were persecuted, harmed and hurt, so some of them came to the prophet, complained that to him and said: let us fight them; but the prophet said:
"Forbear patiently; I have not yet commanded to fight." ​

Then when they emigrated to Medina, God permitted them to fight their oppressors, and this aya was revealed.]​

>> (Those [believers] who are fought, are now given permission [to fight the diolaters] because they [: the believers] have been wronged;
and surely God is Most Able to help them with victory. [This is a promise and He then fulfilled it to them.]​

>> Those who have been driven out of their home-town unjustly, but only for that they said: "Our Lord is God", ​

and had it not been for that God restrains people: some men by means of others [He restrains the disbelievers by means of the believers],
cloisters and churches and prayers and mosques – wherein God's name is mentioned much would have been destroyed. ​

But God will surely help those who help His [cause];​

surely God is Most Powerful, All-Mighty.​

>> [The believers whom He will help are they ] who – if We give them power in the land,

will establish the prayer,
pay the Zakat-alms,
enjoin the right
and forbid the wrong; ​

lastly the am'rs [: their souls] will return to God [and He will accordingly reward them in the afterlife.] )​

The "Jihad" the Holy War)
ÕÝÍÉ ÌÏíÏÉ 1)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

What I quoted was about some not being killed. Giants would be these people, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, ...

Any evidence outside your understanding of the Bible that those people were sub-human giants? There certainly should be.

Beats me how you can believe such nonsense.

 

[Free your mind]

Im sorry but if i you told you hell was not meant to last forever...?
Would that dismiss your view of it...?
What or who gives you the right to determine, what is hell ,and how long it should last ,and who belongs in such a realm, you quote a fable nothing more, truth is within the "LIVING' not the' DEAD "

someone wrote a book along time ago big deal, are half the books you reads now real ...?

 

[Niflmir]

Why leave this out? Some people spared and some destroyed, the reason is they were somehow different, The Bible tell you which peoples were giants, they were the ones totally destroyed.
De:20:10:
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it,
then proclaim peace unto it.
De:20:11:
And it shall be,
if it make thee answer of peace,
and open unto thee,
then it shall be,
that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee,
and they shall serve thee.
De:20:12:
And if it will make no peace with thee,
but will make war against thee,
then thou shalt besiege it:
De:20:13:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands,
thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
De:20:14:
But the women,
and the little ones,
and the cattle,
and all that is in the city,
even all the spoil thereof,
shalt thou take unto thyself;
and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies,
which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

You offer this up as a defense against genocide? This is even worse: become our slaves or we kill all the men and make the rest our slaves.

Your god is a monster. You defend one of his sins with another sin.

How about 1 samuel 15? You know, Amalek waylays you, God's justice is to "go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." This theme repeats itself in Daniel 6:25.

That's right kill him, his wife, his children and all of his livestock, because one man was slighted.

Your god: more evil than Satan. I'm almost surprised your evil god didn't order them to hold off killing Amalek so that he could see his wife, children and livestock be killed first. I guess that is what you call, "God's Mercy."

But worship this evil god, or he will do worse evil to you.

 

[MHz]

It's one of those black and white things, worship God or worship Satan, that's it one or the other, don't bitch if you back the wrong one.

 

[Niflmir]

It's one of those black and white things, worship God or worship Satan, that's it one or the other, don't bitch if you back the wrong one.

This just underlines your level of comprehension of things.

That is a false dichotomy. I do not believe in either. I do believe you worship a monstrous devil.

 

[MHz]

If you don't believe God exists why do you care how He handles things down the road. You are going to die at some point, why does it matter if you melt or end up as part of the river of blood that comes out of the wine-press?
The really sad part is your plans are less than worthless yet you cling to them almost desperately.

 

[darkbeaver]

God is not matter; He is a Spirit; God is distinct from (and Superior to) the matter and the dirts of the material creatures, and is distinct from (and Superior to) the defect of the spiritual beings; He is the Creator and the universe is created.

Example: He created the solar system, then started to watch His creation, as do you watch the hens in their cage [I heard this parable from Abu abd-Allah].

MHz gave an excellent example and explanation in his preceding reply no. #38.

God may not be matter but you know god is the father and the mother of matter and energy. Niether you nor I are matter we are both spirit and soul. The body is a temporary shelter only, same as a lobster shell.
How can any creation of god not be of god and therefore godlike? What is there that can exist outside of god? Nothing has been created except by god and through god and for the edification of god.
In the beginning there was nothing save the void, god created all necessarily of and for himself so in all honestly there is nothing anywhere except manifold manifest expressions of god the one the only the all. I hope you will give consideration to the truth I have just reiterated for you. God cannot be superior to his own flesh, (matter), every particle of that matter was drawn from his own substance and in fact is him, if not then from where. God is very big, as big as the universe and as fast and as wise as the universe.
If god is not the universe then god is not omnipotent, he is father son daughter mother, the one, indivisable and infinitely divisable. Why do you ask me to believe less of him than everything ?

 

[darkbeaver]

Everything is on an established path, a star cannot change its course because it wants to. God can change that course if He wants to, as easily as saying "come here" or "go there"

The wants and needs of a star are quite beyond me I'm afraid. The established paths are not the same as fixed positions though and we know winding paths far better than the straight and narrow roads of which there are few. Yes god can do that as easily as throwing the switch for that function I believe.

 

[Niflmir]

If you don't believe God exists why do you care how He handles things down the road. You are going to die at some point, why does it matter if you melt or end up as part of the river of blood that comes out of the wine-press?
The really sad part is your plans are less than worthless yet you cling to them almost desperately.

What I care is that that people who believe in the Bible don't seem to realize just how evil their chosen deity is. Nowhere in the bible is the devil accused of anything as attrocious as the things I have outlined in this thread, the things that your god sanctioned.

You prattle on about heaven and hell like a drunkard. You do not even comprehend how insipid your demigod is, how saintly your satan is in comparison.

The truly pathetic thing about your last few posts is that you feel the need to portray me in some sad manner. That, because I am without your monster of the desert my life is without meaning. That because I am a sinner, my life must be wretched and without meaning. You say there is a simple choice between the good and the evil, and I have shown you to have taken the evil.

 

[El Barto]

What I care is that that people who believe in the Bible don't seem to realize just how evil their chosen deity is. Nowhere in the bible is the devil accused of anything as attrocious as the things I have outlined in this thread, the things that your god sanctioned.

You prattle on about heaven and hell like a drunkard. You do not even comprehend how insipid your demigod is, how saintly your satan is in comparison.

The truly pathetic thing about your last few posts is that you feel the need to portray me in some sad manner. That, because I am without your monster of the desert my life is without meaning. That because I am a sinner, my life must be wretched and without meaning. You say there is a simple choice between the good and the evil, and I have shown you to have taken the evil.

I approve this message :thumbup:

 

[El Barto]

By fear of going to hell one lives in fear.
By doing the 'good ' thing out of fear you are doing it for all the wrong reasons. It becomes an empty act not worthy of a place in the so called heaven .

If I was religious I would encourage to live life out of love . That would be a much more Noble persuit.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

The Mega cosmic existence of 47 billion Light Years across is God’s pulse, god is every where, in everything of noticeable existence………………
Man may have written the Quran or other biblical literature by other chronological spiritual civilizations, but man did not create the mega cosmos we leave in.

The human perception of what form God is in, is only a perception ………it is not a reality……the mind tends to wander off and look at the chronological existence of this massive ever expending universe and from the big bang to today.

Approximately 13.7 billion years ago

The Reference Frame: BBC HARDtalk with Roger Penrose: before the Big Bang

it leads one to believe that GOD must have been a physicist and was responsible for this great engineered enigma, he must have been under extreme concentration mode to be able and conceder all the necessary elements to start something from so small and become 47 billion light years across in 13.7Billion years, and was he responsible for the existence of a supposedly contracting universe, which led to the big bag?
God is great. No one on this planet has seen his true form. No one……………………But we all know he is there……………..

 

[Cliffy]

This explains it all.

YouTube - Galaxy Song

 

[Cliffy]

YouTube - Monty Python - Every Sperm Is Sacred

 

[MHz]

What I care is that that people who believe in the Bible don't seem to realize just how evil their chosen deity is. Nowhere in the bible is the devil accused of anything as attrocious as the things I have outlined in this thread, the things that your god sanctioned.

Lets see if even 3 things can be attributed to Satan, he was a liar and a murderer in that through him death entered Eden. You must have quite the book that excuses Satan of all those thing and propels him into being a saint.

You prattle on about heaven and hell like a drunkard. You do not even comprehend how insipid your demigod is, how saintly your satan is in comparison.

So far the Garden didn't go according to plan and I don't think coming for the Gentiles (as well as Israel) was entirely expected until Christ allowed Himself to be bruised by Satan's kiss. That is 2-zip so far. You are backing the underdog already.

The truly pathetic thing about your last few posts is that you feel the need to portray me in some sad manner. That, because I am without your monster of the desert my life is without meaning. That because I am a sinner, my life must be wretched and without meaning. You say there is a simple choice between the good and the evil, and I have shown you to have taken the evil.

Go read about grace, your future might not be as bleak as you assume, my posts were just meant to assure you such places exist. What you don't know is that even that place gives up the ones sent there, for some reason you seem to have missed that point.

 

[eanassir]

Your god is a monster...

Why is all this, against God Most Gracious and Most Merciful and Most Kind and All-Clement and Most Forgiving Who turns towards the repentant and pardons the sinner? Out of His mercy, He made the mother kind to her baby; all the mercy in the World and the next afterlife is derived and because of His mercy.

In the Quran 2: 190

و قاتِلُوا فِي سبيلِ اللهِ الّذينَ يُقاتِلُونَكم و لا تَعتدُوا، إنَّ اللهَ لا يُحِبُّ الْمُعتدِينَ.​

The explanation:
(Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. God does not love aggressors.)

But when the idolaters fight the believers, the believers have to defend.

The instructions of the prophet to the fighters:

"Do not kill women, old men, children; do not pursue one running away; do not kill the wounded; do not cut any tree without purpose."

Therefore, God is the same One, but many instructions in the Torah of Ezra had been perverted, distorted, changed and altered.

See the reply number # 36 about this subject.​

The "Jihad" the Holy War)
ÕÝÍÉ ÌÏíÏÉ 1)

 

[eanassir]

DB, God - be glorified - is not the father of the matter, neither is the matter His son or daughter. God is the Creator, and the universe is the created.

If anyone makes an electric set for example, will the set be his son?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

God Most Gracious and Most Merciful and Most Kind and All-Clement and Most Forgiving...

How can you possibly look at the real world around you and think any of that is true? That's not even consistent with the book you set such store by, it contains multiple descriptions of the horrible fates that await people like me who've used our presumably--at least in your terms--god-given gifts of reason and intelligence to challenge its claims when they don't make sense in light of modern knowledge. Allah in the Quran often appears as exactly the same savage, merciless old troll who appears in the Old Testament, and I have nothing but contempt for both of them. They are among the nastiest characters in all of fiction.