The discourse of people of Paradise and Hell

[MHz]

My God will allow anybody to become a creator, the only condition is they cannot use anything God claims to have already created, like dust, they have to use their own dust, etc.

Apparently you misunderstood my post. It is an idle threat because I know that war god of the desert does not exist. If he did, he is an insignificant little insecure person who could easily put down for his pettiness. Your and eanassir's god reminds me of the man behind the curtain in Yellow Brick Road.

Nor does this book, it would seem He can defeat armies and you are going to do what? LOL and who says you don't have a chance at immortality, your name should have a spot somewhere in that book it would seem.
Nu:21:14:
Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the LORD,
What he did in the Red sea,
and in the brooks of Arnon,

 

[Cliffy]

I leave your words to God to deal with you.

My God is the Creator; who is your god ?

Your god is the god of Abraham, who is a petty, jealous, vindictive little tyrant.

The Creator of all would not need people to praise him unless he was insecure. I don't think the universe was created by such a being. It is just human ego that thinks he is so important that the creator gives a fig about what you think and believe. Why do you think the creator of the universe would want you to obey all these ridiculous rules and stifle your mental and spiritual growth?

To me, if there is a creator, it would want us to experience life to its fullest so that it can grow to through our experiences. Perhaps when the bible and the quran were written, people were still barbarians and needed rules to keep them in line (I doubt it) but now is time to shed those ancient shackles and in the famous words of Robin Williams in The Fisher King - "Get naked and let your willy flap in the breeze".

 

[Cliffy]

Mhz,

I realize that you think that your book is important. That the stuff in it holds truth or the word of god, but I think god would not stifle our growth with so many silly rules and threats.

A local minister asked me one day why I didn't go to church. I told him god created forests, man created churches. Who you gonna trust?

The same goes for the bible. Men wrote it. If you want to know the truth, go spend a few years in the forest and commune with god's creation. Men will just fill your head with BS.

 

[MHz]

Why do you think the creator of the universe would want you to obey all these ridiculous rules and stifle your mental and spiritual growth?

I think that was part of the reason for eternity is so we could grow. What do we have right now? Under 20 you haven't experienced enough things to have a solid base, once you hit 35 your body is going into a slow death spiral. It would appear death is a factor in there, that is a punishment not a reward. A longer life would just mean more mistakes (our only method of learning is trial and error)

Mhz,

I realize that you think that your book is important. That the stuff in it holds truth or the word of god, but I think god would not stifle our growth with so many silly rules and threats.

A local minister asked me one day why I didn't go to church. I told him god created forests, man created churches. Who you gonna trust?

The same goes for the bible. Men wrote it. If you want to know the truth, go spend a few years in the forest and commune with god's creation. Men will just fill your head with BS.

Being in the forest is relaxing for you. Make that forest into a wooden building and you don't care for it, make that wood into paper and put words on it you care for it even less. That's quite the path you're on. Best of luck with it.

 

[Cliffy]

Being in the forest is relaxing for you. Make that forest into a wooden building and you don't care for it, make that wood into paper and put words on it you care for it even less. That's quite the path you're on. Best of luck with it.

That is pretty condescending, but Hey, considering the source, I will let it slide. I am as convinced that you are wrong as you that I am. That is the nature of the beast. But with so many beliefs out there, it boggles my mind that anyone can say with absolute certainty that their belief is the one and only god approved one.

My belief system is mine. It doesn't fit with anyone else's. I came to my conclusions based on my personal experiences in life. One of those beliefs is that the truth is only relevant to the beholder. The only thing that I take issue with is that someone will say that their belief is the only one with any relevance, particularly when I know that it is only a parroting of someone else's belief.

You do have a unique view of the bible but it is your arrogance in presenting it that I feel obliged to take a devil's advocate position. Nobody has the answers for the rest of humanity, just for themselves. Mine came from 10 years of living in the forest with the wild animals and my concerns are not for humanity but the creatures that humans adversely impact.

 

[Niflmir]

Hollow words without inspiration.

"My God is the Creator; who is your god ?"

Really, the creator? You would think your god would have described his creation in more detail to prove this. Your god shows all of the superstitions and ignorance of the people who wrote the Quran, it certainly does not show the knowledge and security of mind that would befit a true creator of a universe. Your god is not more just, it is not more knowledgeable, it is not more understanding. It is as pathetic in attitude and belief as the authors of the Quran which elaborates this god to people.

And your quotes are the ones which show this to be the case. There is nothing enlightening about those words. They are the tired threats and empty promises of superstitious people.

Here what the threat of hell sounds like to me:

"If you do not worship our god, our god will beat you with a stick until you die. You should worship our god because he is a depressed and insecure god who does not take his antidepressants. If you do not worship our god then it is your fault when he beats you to death because you now know that he is a crazy, insecure god."

 

[El Barto]

Mhz,

I realize that you think that your book is important. That the stuff in it holds truth or the word of god, but I think god would not stifle our growth with so many silly rules and threats.

A local minister asked me one day why I didn't go to church. I told him god created forests, man created churches. Who you gonna trust?

The same goes for the bible. Men wrote it. If you want to know the truth, go spend a few years in the forest and commune with god's creation. Men will just fill your head with BS.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[MHz]

That is pretty condescending, but Hey, considering the source, I will let it slide. I am as convinced that you are wrong as you that I am. That is the nature of the beast. But with so many beliefs out there, it boggles my mind that anyone can say with absolute certainty that their belief is the one and only god approved one.

My belief system is mine. It doesn't fit with anyone else's. I came to my conclusions based on my personal experiences in life. One of those beliefs is that the truth is only relevant to the beholder. The only thing that I take issue with is that someone will say that their belief is the only one with any relevance, particularly when I know that it is only a parroting of someone else's belief.

You do have a unique view of the bible but it is your arrogance in presenting it that I feel obliged to take a devil's advocate position. Nobody has the answers for the rest of humanity, just for themselves. Mine came from 10 years of living in the forest with the wild animals and my concerns are not for humanity but the creatures that humans adversely impact.

Then again a reply would indicate you will not let it pass. Cliffy you had disdain for Scripture before we ever exchanged any words so please spare me the " you made me this way".
Why else would you say you are going to take a stick to God. Does this verse give you the desire to wail away on Him?

M't:10:29:
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?
and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Now why do you think He is inclined to remember them? The answer is elsewhere in the Book. The one you want to beat feels this way about you.

M't:10:31:
Fear ye not therefore,
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

I assume you can blend the two together into one message.

Hollow words without inspiration.

"My God is the Creator; who is your god ?"

Really, the creator? You would think your god would have described his creation in more detail to prove this. Your god shows all of the superstitions and ignorance of the people who wrote the Quran, it certainly does not show the knowledge and security of mind that would befit a true creator of a universe. Your god is not more just, it is not more knowledgeable, it is not more understanding. It is as pathetic in attitude and belief as the authors of the Quran which elaborates this god to people.

And your quotes are the ones which show this to be the case. There is nothing enlightening about those words. They are the tired threats and empty promises of superstitious people.

Here what the threat of hell sounds like to me:

"If you do not worship our god, our god will beat you with a stick until you die. You should worship our god because he is a depressed and insecure god who does not take his antidepressants. If you do not worship our god then it is your fault when he beats you to death because you now know that he is a crazy, insecure god."

If God expanded each single page to the size of all 66 Books nobody could ever read it. Most give it up due to the size let alone the complexity (meaning you don't understand it all on the first few reads). As short as it is I doubt you understand as well as you think you do. The worship thing is admitting you are not really the one that controls your own destiny. The actual worship thing comes after seeing Him in action. Your post indicates you know nothing about the fate of those you mention.
Sending some to the grave and bringing them back will make believers out of them. Some need a little more because they have been so nasty to His creations (that includes beasts of the fields)
Just on Jesus's work alone you couldn't write it all down, if the amount of words aren't enough adding more wouldn't change things. Like Cliffy it appears the movie will be more convincing than the Book, you may not get your desired role but at least you will understand what is real and what isn't. Hope it comes before the being made into vapors.

Joh:21:25:
And there are also many other things which Jesus did,
the which,
if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
Amen.

 

[Niflmir]

If God expanded each single page to the size of all 66 Books nobody could ever read it. Most give it up due to the size let alone the complexity (meaning you don't understand it all on the first few reads). As short as it is I doubt you understand as well as you think you do. The worship thing is admitting you are not really the one that controls your own destiny. The actual worship thing comes after seeing Him in action. Your post indicates you know nothing about the fate of those you mention.
Sending some to the grave and bringing them back will make believers out of them. Some need a little more because they have been so nasty to His creations (that includes beasts of the fields)

Hollow threats and promises.

Sentences devoid of meaning.

Psychotic pretensions that one has seen a god.

This is what you have and present to me.

The bible tells us nothing of science, for understanding the world around us it is worse than useless. The bible tells us nothing of morality, telling us to put babies to the sword and advocating genocide are amongst the most immoral things imaginable.

What are these 66 books supposed to contain exactly? Simply putting one useful sentence that wasn't already known inside of the book would have been a miracle. It is a book of superstition, ignorance and pathetic appeals to fear and bribery.

It is a book written by humans with all the hallmarks of human failings, if it were written by a god, then that is a despicable god not worthy of our worship.

 

[MHz]

The bible tells us nothing of science, for understanding the world around us it is worse than useless. The bible tells us nothing of morality, telling us to put babies to the sword and advocating genocide are amongst the most immoral things imaginable.

What is the difference between a sword and a bomb, many here actually cheer that sort of practice, kill a baby so they aren't a threat somewhere down the road. So there were no genocides before the exodus and none since the end of the 1st century AD, that's rather interesting and is in direct contrast to many pages in our history books.

 

[Cliffy]

The difference being that god sanctioned the biblical genocides and everything after was man following god's example.

 

[MHz]

You view it as a book of fiction, that means the writings were based on similar events and if making God greater was the goal the numbers were simply embellished on.
In the Bible the genocides were restricted to the Giants of that time, relatives of the giants of before the flood. The deaths after the exodus was just the mop-up. You want 11ft tall thugs wandering amongst us, that bad news is us 'little people' would now be extinct. You should give Him a few points for originality (walls of Jericho) rather than the same method used endlessly.
The non-giants that wanted war rather than giving way got it, the only survivers were the innocents of that Nation. From that remnant God, who became part of the 12 Tribes, can restore all those who He caused to die. That is what (beheaded) for the word of God means in Re:20. Those lives He took (to show a select few that following Him was better than warring against Him) as a sign of power is given back so they can be judged as if they were given a choice to join rather than fight.

 

[Niflmir]

What is the difference between a sword and a bomb, many here actually cheer that sort of practice, kill a baby so they aren't a threat somewhere down the road. So there were no genocides before the exodus and none since the end of the 1st century AD, that's rather interesting and is in direct contrast to many pages in our history books.

I am not sure what your point is, since I do not fall into the category of "many here" which endorse infanticide or genocide, nor do I fall into the camp of holocaust deniers. Either you have resorted to red herrings or you have missed the point.

My point is this: genocide and infanticide are ghastly crimes and amongst the most atrocious acts I can imagine yet only in a moral system as corrupt as that espoused by the bible are these acts sanctioned as perfectly reasoned and moral acts; the bible describes these acts not as last resorts but rather as the right and good thing to do. Sure, there have been all kinds of genocides since the 1st century, that's irrelevant because nobody in this thread has tried to sanction those as moral.

Ergo, I posit that any person who thinks infanticide and genocide are terrible should conclude that the god in the bible is a beast worse than any devil.

 

[Niflmir]

In the Bible the genocides were restricted to the Giants of that time, ...

No. The Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were not such giants, we have skeletons to prove it.

Read Deuteronomy 20:16-17 for starts. "Leave nothing that breathes." Cute, a downright respectable command from a moral god to his people.

There is more like this. It is not hard to find. Because I am lazy I will just throw this quote out here:

Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that [genocide and infanticide] was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

If you have questions about ethics and morality, the bible is not the place to go for answers.

 

[MHz]

No. The Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were not such giants, we have skeletons to prove it.

Read Deuteronomy 20:16-17 for starts. "Leave nothing that breathes." Cute, a downright respectable command from a moral god to his people.

There is more like this. It is not hard to find. Because I am lazy I will just throw this quote out here:



If you have questions about ethics and morality, the bible is not the place to go for answers.

Why leave this out? Some people spared and some destroyed, the reason is they were somehow different, The Bible tell you which peoples were giants, they were the ones totally destroyed.
De:20:10:
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it,
then proclaim peace unto it.
De:20:11:
And it shall be,
if it make thee answer of peace,
and open unto thee,
then it shall be,
that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee,
and they shall serve thee.
De:20:12:
And if it will make no peace with thee,
but will make war against thee,
then thou shalt besiege it:
De:20:13:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands,
thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
De:20:14:
But the women,
and the little ones,
and the cattle,
and all that is in the city,
even all the spoil thereof,
shalt thou take unto thyself;
and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies,
which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

 

[eanassir]

Not all the Bible is authentic and true; some of it (the Old Testament) was re-written by the Priest Ezra followin their return from the captivity of Babylon; and this led to the many mistakes in the Torah of Ezra, and his many lies against the prophets of God.

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#The_Torah_[or_Hebrew_Bible]_of_Ezra_
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#The_Torah_[or_Hebrew_Bible]_of_Ezra_

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#the%20lies%20of%20ezra
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#the%20lies%20of%20ezra
​

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#the%20mistake%20in%20the%20torah%20of%20ezra
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#the%20mistake%20in%20the%20torah%20of%20ezra
​

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#lost%20book%20of%20bible ​

http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#lost%20book%20of%20bible ​

 

[darkbeaver]

We cannot comprehend about His essence. About His existence: Yes certainly, about His work: Yes marvelous; but no intelligence, no mind and no reason can attain to know about Himself.
But the heavens and the earth are the work of His hand (i.e. of His might.)

Still if I substitute universe for god, there is essentially no disruption to the discourse, scientifically we suppose the universe to be that all powerfull thing that it must be. It is literally everthing, undivisable and eternal and all knowing. What is the difference between the universe and god? I don't suppose for a second that there can be any doubt about oneness. God the singularity.

 

[MHz]

What is the difference between the universe and god? I don't suppose for a second that there can be any doubt about oneness. God the singularity.

Everything is on an established path, a star cannot change its course because it wants to. God can change that course if He wants to, as easily as saying "come here" or "go there"

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The Bible tell you which peoples were giants, they were the ones totally destroyed.

Don't see anything about giants in what you quoted. What I see is, surrender immediately and pay tribute and become our servants, or we'll murder all your menfolk, take everyone else hostage, rob you of everything you own, and you'll become our servants anyway. Nice pair of options. Change some of the story's specifics, so that it's not the Israelites taking territory away from the people who already live in it, but somebody else doing, or trying to do, the same thing with the same conditions in some other time and place. Like, say, the Ottoman Turks besieging Vienna in 1529, shortly after they'd massacred the garrison at Buda in Hungary, and making the same threat. I'm not saying they did, just imagine they did. Wouldn't you perceive that as odious? Don't you perceive that story in Deuteronomy as equally odious? It's a biblical story and thus presumably represents god's will; does that make alright?

Genghis Khan would have loved the Old Testament and that ferocious ogre of a tribal deity it tells about. He's one of the nastiest characters in all of literature.

 

[eanassir]

Still if I substitute universe for god, there is essentially no disruption to the discourse, scientifically we suppose the universe to be that all powerfull thing that it must be. It is literally everthing, undivisable and eternal and all knowing. What is the difference between the universe and god? I don't suppose for a second that there can be any doubt about oneness. God the singularity.

God is not matter; He is a Spirit; God is distinct from (and Superior to) the matter and the dirts of the material creatures, and is distinct from (and Superior to) the defect of the spiritual beings; He is the Creator and the universe is created.

Example: He created the solar system, then started to watch His creation, as do you watch the hens in their cage [I heard this parable from Abu abd-Allah].

MHz gave an excellent example and explanation in his preceding reply no. #38.