So the USA in Iraq is illegal huh?

[Extrafire]

I mean you mention "daddy" way to often. Just because you view your daddy as a commie don't try and paint the rest of us with the same paintbrush.

I view my Daddy just the way he says he is, and he loves communism and hates Americans. There are many others who hold the same views. I don't paint you or anyone else on this forum with that brush because I don't know you. Only you know if you fit the description, and you paint yourselves with your words.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

One more point. I've been on this forum for awhile, and I've seen very few posts that were what an intelligent person could consider anti-American. Many posters here are extremely critical of the American administration, but so too are they of our own government.

So would they be considered anti-Canadian to you?

 

[Extrafire]

I think what Peapod was suggesting was that your father, whoever he may be, has some serious and unresolved issues. As a result of your interaction with him for so many years, you seem to have a few issues of your own.

No, that's just what he believes. He contributes to the NDP but I don't know if he's a member. If the communist party had any presence in this country he would vote for them. Like many on the left he is somewhat hypocritical, in that he made himself very well off through capitalist ventures, but seems to want to deny the same opportunity for others. He came to Canada in 1930 just in time to see some of the worst abuses of mercantilism that seem to have coloured his political vision from then on.

Issues of my own? Not sure what you mean. I'm a free-enterprise capitalist. We dissagree, that's all.

I'd like to make a point now, and be perfectly clear: Neither the NDP, nor social democrats, or democratic socialists are communists. Never have been, and never will be. They follow divergent political paths that have few parallels, and entirely different goals.

For the first half of my adult live I was an NDP supporter and I used to make the same point. What disturbs me is that too often they seem to excuse any action by communist regimes

Quote:
Fascism, in many respects, is an ideology of negativism: anti-liberal, anti-socialist, anti-Communist, anti-democratic, anti-egalitarian, etc., and in some of its forms anti-religion. As a political and economic system in Italy, it combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, and anti-communism.


All of those things from the quote above could easily be applied to the Conservative Party of Canada.

Conservatives anti-liberal? Yup. Anti-socialist, anti communist, yup. Anti democratic? Not in the least. They're the ones trying to bring democracy back. Anti egalitarian, Anti religion? Not in the least. However, the NDP is anti democratic, anti egalitarian, and anti religion. Socialism is the politics of envy.

I've always considered fascism and communism to be very similar. Both are totalitarian, both suppress freedoms & both will use any means to attain their ends.

But you know what, we're way off topic. Maybe this belongs in another thread.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Agreed :wink:

 

[Extrafire]

So would they be considered anti-Canadian to you?

Hmmm....not exactly the same thing. When they object to the policies of a certain party that wouldn't be construed as anti Canadian. That's a lot different than the knee-jerk Carolyn Parrish type statement "Damn Americans. I hate those bastards". Totally different mindset.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Yet, it cannot be denied, that Ms. Parrish's comments were not targetted at the population of the United States, but their governement and its policies.

 

[Extrafire]

I know Canadians "aren't all like that." Assholes transcend borders. In retrospect I could have been less "in-your-face," but down here, that's us. I'll admit to being a "dumb American"--my doctorate not withstanding.

Yup, lots of those kind in the USA as well, like that professor (what's his name, Wade Churchill or something) who's saying that the terrorists were heros and all the 3000 people killed were nazis and deserved to die.

But I gotta tell you, USA#1, I don't like everything you people do. For example, some of your trade practices are quite reprehensible.

As far as the war in Iraq is concerned, until there is such a thing as a world government, there can be no real international law. Is the UN the institution that decides what is legal or not? That august group composed mostly of governments that are dictatorial? Why would any sensible nation subvert their sovereignty to that bunch of thugs?

Illegal or not, it was a huge mistake to go back into Iraq. Saddam was a monster, true, but the threat he posed to you and us was minimal compared to the threat from radical Islam. There's no such thing as a war against terrorism. Terrorism is a weapon. You can't have a war against a weapon, only against the persons who wield it. Saddam kept the radical Muslims contained in Iraq by brutal suppression of any of his opponents. By removing him you have created a power vacuum that will in time be filled by the radicals, which is a much worse scenario for you and the world.

 

[Extrafire]

Since the excited states is a democracy, and the government represents the people, yes I think I can deny it.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Then that would mean that, because Canada is also a democracy, and the government also represents the people, if I were to say that Paul Martin is an asshole, then I would be anti-Canadian, and unpatriotic, which I am not. And I do think that Paul Martin is an asshole, by the way.

 

[jimmoyer]

Does anyone on this board think the following would have happened if Saddam still ruled?

1. lebanon's protests of Syrian occupation and calling for national democracy?

2. Kuwait considering allowing the women to vote
3. Egypt considering Presidential elections
4. Saudia Arabia holding even meaningless municipal elections

5. Quaddafy of Libya giving up the nuclear weapons program

6. 60 million Iraqis braving the terrorists to proudly hold an ink-stained index finger as proof they voted

7. The Sunni clergy wishing to join the Iraqi military and have on of its own elected to be Speaker of the Parliament

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Who's to say, but unilaterally starting a war that was illegal by international conventions, and committing crimes against humanity, and slaughtering upwards of 100,000 Iraqis to get there, may not have been the way to go.

Oh yeah...and lying about the motives for the illegal invasion in the first place...

 

[jimmoyer]

Perhaps it would be instructive to consider possible alternative realities.

Consider how the unhappy status quo of Saddam would have continued:

1. allowing a sick state where family trusted no one for any member could turn in another family member and be rewarded by Saddam's sick minders and police.

2. Saddam would have continued to pay and reward each Palestinian family 50k for losing one of its sons or daughters for the psychologically sick suicide bombers.

3. He would have continued to explore ways to threaten the region as he persued his Nebachadnezzer dreams of palace building financed by the idiotic UN Food for Oil Program

4. Containment of the pariah was a porous myth, a continuation of psychological sickness running a nation in fear, a threat that would fester and only get stronger because of Europe's desire for commerce and to have its own Saudi Arabia....

 

[Extrafire]

Then that would mean that, because Canada is also a democracy, and the government also represents the people, if I were to say that Paul Martin is an asshole, then I would be anti-Canadian, and unpatriotic, which I am not. And I do think that Paul Martin is an asshole, by the way.

We share the same opinion of Paul Martin, but I disagree with your conclusion. If you said you hated Canadians, as C.P. said she hated Americans, that would be anti-Canadian and unpatriotic. By contrast, dear old Dad hates all Americans, Democrat or Republican, with a zeal comparible to Carolyns'.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Since Extrafire never responded to Vanni's point about Carolyn Parrish's statement not being directed at all Americans, I will clarify it.

Carolyn Parrish was responding to the actions of Americans negotiators at a NATO summit. The US team was refusing to listen to anybody and refusing to compromise. They were bullying smaller countries. Parrish made a remark that referred to them, not to all Americans. It was made off the record. Most of the non-US delegates agreed with her sentiment because of the way the American representatives were behaving.

1. lebanon's protests of Syrian occupation and calling for national democracy?

Yes. The people of Lebanon are fed up with outsiders messing up their country. That goes for Syrians, Americans, and Europeans.

2. Kuwait considering allowing the women to vote

It likely would have happened sooner. The US has been propping up old-gurad regimes in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for decades. It has been groups like HRW, Amnesty International, and the United Nations that has been pushing for sufferage for women in these places.

3. Egypt considering Presidential elections

The Egyptian government has been supported by the US for decades. The illegal invasion of Iraq might have raised enough anti-American sentiment that the population demanded elections, but that is hardly the same as saying that the invasion was a positive force.

4. Saudia Arabia holding even meaningless municipal elections

Again, the US has been supporting an anti-democratic regime there for years. Did those elections happen because of or in spite of US influence?

5. Quaddafy of Libya giving up the nuclear weapons program

Khaddafi had been in negotion with European countries, the IAEA, and the UN for years. To say that the settlement was because the US invaded Iraq is ludicrous.

6. 60 million Iraqis braving the terrorists to proudly hold an ink-stained index finger as proof they voted

Except you couldn't run for office unless you were approved by the US. That's not very democratic. There was also a major part of the population that was disenfranchised by the election. The new government has not made a single decision yet, they can't even decide what to have for lunch most days.

7. The Sunni clergy wishing to join the Iraqi military and have on of its own elected to be Speaker of the Parliament

What about the Shia? Oops, we don't like to talk about them.

Yup, lots of those kind in the USA as well, like that professor (what's his name, Wade Churchill or something) who's saying that the terrorists were heros and all the 3000 people killed were nazis and deserved to die.

Not what he said, not at all what he meant. It's fun to take people out of context though, isn't it? Kind of like the Carolyn Parrish thing. :roll:

As far as the war in Iraq is concerned, until there is such a thing as a world government, there can be no real international law. Is the UN the institution that decides what is legal or not? That august group composed mostly of governments that are dictatorial? Why would any sensible nation subvert their sovereignty to that bunch of thugs?

There are international laws. The US is not only a signatory to them, but was a major force in them being written. That is especially true of the law that states that being the aggressor in the beginning of a conflict is the biggest crime of all. George Bush is a war criminal according to laws that the US was instrumental in formulating.

 

[jimmoyer]

It is ironic to watch you be so more enthused indicting the idiot in the American White House than to have the same strong emotions regarding Saddam Hussein or for that matter the same strong emotions against Milosivec.

It was ironic to watch no one in Europe or Canada march against Saddam or Milosivec, but feel quite motivated to march against an American President from Reagan to Bush.

There are many parallels between the 9 year war in the Yugoslavian republics (beginning first with Slovenia and Croatia breaking off ---- years before Europe would step in to clean its own backyard of genocide, a promise they made after WWII) and the war in Iraq.

But let us just leave you your Saddam in charge of Iraq so you and European big business could call the shots hiding conveniently behind the ignorant young protesting the American Cowboy.

Mind think and echoing a zeitgeist is not only an American problem, but it seems to be a problem for other countries as well.

Morally despicable for Europe not to step in and shut down the carnage Serbia found necessary to keep Yugoslavia unified.

Morally stupid and dispicable for Europe to care more about its hate towards the American Cowboy than it is to give struggling Iraqis any help, help in a brave way.

Pershaps Europe and Canada is getting too soft to stand bravely to help new struggling countries. They might get shot if they help.

God forbid.

Stay in your physical comfort zone
along with your mentally insulated comfort zone.

Don't lift a finger to help Baghdad now.

Better to be right than to give a new country a real chance.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Why, why, why, do I have to keep making this point to inane pseudo-patriotic neo-con wannabees...*sigh*

Both Hussein and Milosovic were brutal dictators that held their power by terrorizing their populace...but they were dictators...that's what dictators do...it doesn't make it right, but that is what it is...

Bush on the other hand is the leader of the world's only remaining super-power...and presumably a free and democratic society...for him to be doing exactly the same things that he is supposed to be championing against, is by far more evil and disgusting than those that he bombed off of their seats of power...

Do you not think that if he really cared about the Middle East embracing freedom and democracy, that he would at least try to lead by example?

That he doesn't suggests to those of us that don't watch Fox News that he doesn't give a rat's ass about freedom and democracy, and has troops there for other reasons.

I wonder what those would be?

No one here suggests that Saddam or Milosevic were good leaders, but we also recognize that Bush is no better, and in fact a hell of a lot worse, because he is capable of a hell of a lot more damage...

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So the USA in Iraq is

I'm also sick and tired of being told that we never protested Saddam. We did that back when Rummy was still shaking his hand and smiling. We got called communists and terrorists back then too.

 

[mrmom2]

Thats what neocons do if your not with them your a conspiracy theorist or a terrorist or just a plain communist.Sounds an awful lot like a facist dosen't it Rev?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I can't comment on when Rummy was Saddam's bitch, Rev, as I was still pretty young, and at the time I wasn't protesting anything but having to do my homework...

...and during the first invasion of Iraq, I was a gung ho soldier, who wanted nothing more than to march off to war...sadly, during my twenties, I think I may have held a few conservative ideals...

...but then I learned a thing or two about the world, and I'm happy to say, that I'm feeling alright now... 8)

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Rick,

First, let me remind you that my comments refered to SOME Canadians, not all. There are a lot of Canadians who seem to have a vitriolic hatred of anything American and those are the ones to whom I was referring.

I'm having trouble working the "quote" tool here so I'll just post my comments in bold.

I think most Canadians are well aware of the evil that came from the Communists. You know this is lie. I have heard many Conservatives comment about how easy certain people on the Left compare them to Nazis - and I can understand that, because the Conservatives of today are by far not Nazis. On the other hand, Liberals are not Communists.

I have known quite a number of Canadians who considered communism to be the best system in the world. Most of them vote NDP. What is "quite a number"? 1 out of a 1,000. 1 out a 100?


When I look at Canada I see a democratic country. When I talk to the Canadians here, I haven't heard one promoting a possible (Liberal) dictatorship. Where do you base your feeling upon, if I may ask? Is it scientific proof or is it something you want to believe?

Canada is only slightly democratic, in that every 4 years we get to vote. Our senate is a useless patronage gift, is not elected, has no real power. Our MP's only have the power that the Prime Minister gives them, all power rests with his office. MP's do as they're told or they get kicked out. The American system is much more democratic. In what way is the American system more democratic, if I may ask? Isn't democracy more than just a vote in every 4 years, but also - for example - the freedom of speech?

Yes, I think Canadians Liberals like to cheer the death of 3,000 people

Some did, including my father who votes NDP and considers that the world would be a utopia if every country was communist. Aha. And your father you think is a good representative of the NDP?

I'm sure Canada would back the US when they would be invaded.
I am too. But there are quite a few who would cheer on the invaders including my father.

Let me remind you that some weeks ago, a UN resolution was formed to bring Darfur war criminals to justice.
Talk is cheap. That's all they ever do. Talk. Remember Rawanda? Consider, most of the members of that body are dictatorships, not democracies. That's why I don't trust the UN at all. Talk may be cheap, but it's better than to ignore the entire issue. Besides that, this chitty-chat in the UN is in fact a predecessor of what I hope will be real action. Now, many members are indeed dictatorships. But what else? Should we ignore them? Whether one likes it or not, the UN can be used to push for democratic reforms. Totally ignoring them out of an important international institution won't.

As I said, they like dictators as long as those dictators don't like Americans.Prove it.

Remember, it's only some of them. Want proof? Talk to my father and a few more of my relatives. They love everyone who hates Americans. Look, as I asked before, is your father a good indication of what the rest of Canada thinks?

Perhaps Canada could address the proliferation of nuclear weapons with China, North Korea or Iran?

Liberal Canadians know darn well that these countries are violating human rights on a massive scale. Grow up, please.
The people I refer to deny it or know it but don't care. Again, talk to Dad.

The decision to remove the Spanish troops from Iraq was already taken by the Social-Democratic Party in Spain before the bombings in Madrid

But they weren't in power and were about to loose the election. The people reacted by changing their minds and voted them in. It was the people who cut an ran. Canadians have been so protected for so long than a great many of them would do the same. One of the reasons the Spanish voted the Conservative party out of office was also because they lied about the perpetrators of the Madrid bombings. Whether one likes it or not, by the way, one of the reasons why the Madrid bombings occurred was because there were Spanish troops in Iraq, against the wishes of the majority of the Spaniards by the way. Can you blame them then for seeing that reason and concluding out of that that is is better for their own country when they retreat out of Iraq? (a wish already shared before the Madrid bombings).
They might embarrass you, but as I Dutchman I think they are doing a good job
A good job running my country into the ground. I guess we'll hold different opinions on this.[/b]