SCC Decision on Consent

karrie

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It establishes a pattern of behavior and as you know that is relevant.

Actually, if you follow law at all, in rape cases, 'pattern of behaviour' is completely irrelevant.


Yeah sure, I would like to know all the criminal acts my wife and I engage in on a regular basis.


People engage in breath-play, flogging, spanking and other such activities all the time with consent, I suppose we shall soon see a big backlog in the courts surrounding these cases of assault.

lol... Bear, he's giving you a lesson on BDSM... cool.

You're blowing it way out of proprotion, from unwilling participants being allowed to press charges, and the law protecting them, to the cops beating down your bedroom door to make sure you're not spanking your wife. Consenting partners don't go to court. lol.
 

CDNBear

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Actually, if you follow law at all, in rape cases, 'pattern of behaviour' is completely irrelevant.
Inadmissible, actually.

A woman in the work place can be receptive to sexual commentary for years, then one day snap and say no. From that point on, any sexual commentary, is against the law.

If she's forced to go to court. Those years of happy participation, completely inadmissible.

She said stop.

Being unconscious, defined by the CCoC, is the removal of consent.

Not that I needed to explain that to you, lol, sorry, I just started to ramble.

lol... Bear, he's giving you a lesson on BDSM... cool.
I'm going through collarme.com and bondage.com right now, trying to find my article on BDSM and the law. alt.com is gone now, and I had a ton of my articles archived there.
 

karrie

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I knew all of that Bear. I know plenty of people who know all that. lol. It's basic legal 'keep your ass covered' in the circles I've been known to brush up against.
 

PoliticalNick

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I can't be bothered to actually do all the work.
So don't offer it up!

She lied about when, not what.
She lied about a whole bunch of things including what. She originally stated she did not give prior consent to anal sex while unconscious, later she recanted and said she did in fact give that prior consent. The case was overturned on this FACT.

The SCC isn't in the habit of taking on just any case that someone drops on their door step. There had to be legal standing.
Yep and I'm sure the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund paid some big money and made some arguments to get it in front of the SCC without the original compainant to further their agenda.
 

CDNBear

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I knew all of that Bear. I know plenty of people who know all that. lol. It's basic legal 'keep your ass covered' in the circles I've been known to brush up against.
Ya, sometimes a thought pops in my head and I just type it out, lol.

It's always the vanilla types, that just don't get it, lol.

So don't offer it up!
I gave you the link to the specific section. Ask me how I knew you'd ignore it?



She lied about a whole bunch of things including what. She originally stated she did not give prior consent to anal sex while unconscious, later she recanted and said she did in fact give that prior consent. The case was overturned on this FACT.
And the SCC, the highest court in our country, over turned it because...

“Parliament’s definition of consent does not extend to advance consent to sexual acts committed while the complainant is unconscious,” Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote for the majority.


“The legislation requires ongoing, conscious consent to ensure that women and men are not the victims of sexual exploitation, and to ensure that individuals engaging in sexual activity are capable of asking their partners to stop at any point.”
As definied by the CCoC.

And that is a fact.

Yep and I'm sure the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund paid some big money and made some arguments to get it in front of the SCC without the original compainant to further their agenda.
That would denote they made a legal argument that the SSC could not simply dismiss. Which is what I said.
 

PoliticalNick

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I gave you the link to the specific section. Ask me how I knew you'd ignore it?
And what you really said was...
The CCoC, do you want the section and subsection numbers?


And the SCC, the highest court in our country, over turned it because...
“Parliament’s definition of consent does not extend to advance consent to sexual acts committed while the complainant is unconscious,” Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote for the majority.


“The legislation requires ongoing, conscious consent to ensure that women and men are not the victims of sexual exploitation, and to ensure that individuals engaging in sexual activity are capable of asking their partners to stop at any point.”
As definied by the CCoC.
And yet nowhere in this definition do I see what they say.
(2) Subject to subsection (3), “consent” means, for the purposes of this section, the voluntary agreement of the complainant to engage in the sexual activity in question.

And that is a fact.
Actually it is an majority opinion with a dissenting opinion in the court also.
What they have done is ruled that consenting adults are not capable of saying 'I consent for you to render me unconscious and have sex with me because I like it like that'. I find that extremely intrusive to my ability to control my own body and my wishes. I find it to be a precedent that can now be used against doctors and dentists and EMTs and it could have some serious effects. If prior consent is voided when unconscious then every surgery in the country has become an illegal act.

You still ignore the facts in the original case in the provincial high court where th lady in question admitted to lying about the facts and admitted she only brought the case to seek revenge for a threat surrounding child custody, not because she didn't consent to what happened. Honestly she should be up on charges and on her way to jail for filing a false allegation and abusing the justice system.
 

karrie

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Actually it is an majority opinion with a dissenting opinion in the court also.
What they have done is ruled that consenting adults are not capable of saying 'I consent for you to render me unconscious and have sex with me because I like it like that'. I find that extremely intrusive to my ability to control my own body and my wishes. I find it to be a precedent that can now be used against doctors and dentists and EMTs and it could have some serious effects. If prior consent is voided when unconscious then every surgery in the country has become an illegal act.

What dentist/doctor can come sedate you in your own home with no witnesses?
 

CDNBear

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And what you really said was...
Your point?

And yet nowhere in this definition do I see what they say.
(2) Subject to subsection (3), “consent” means, for the purposes of this section, the voluntary agreement of the complainant to engage in the sexual activity in question.


I have a cherry tree, when they're ripe, can you give me a hand to pick them? You're so good at it.

Actually it is an majority opinion with a dissenting opinion in the court also.
What they have done is ruled that consenting adults are not capable of saying 'I consent for you to render me unconscious and have sex with me because I like it like that'. I find that extremely intrusive to my ability to control my own body and my wishes. I find it to be a precedent that can now be used against doctors and dentists and EMTs and it could have some serious effects. If prior consent is voided when unconscious then every surgery in the country has become an illegal act.
Instead of trying to support your position with cherry picked snippets and wikiality, try starting with section ***, of the criminal code.

Ask nice, and I'll tell you the section that defines consent, and I'll tell you why consent is captioned in your erroneously cherry picked quote.

You still ignore the facts in the original case in the provincial high court where th lady in question admitted to lying about the facts and admitted she only brought the case to seek revenge for a threat surrounding child custody, not because she didn't consent to what happened.
I didn't ignore them, they're irrelevant. For the 6th time, YOU CAN NOT CONSENT TO THE INDICTABLE OFFENCE OF ASSAULT.

Honestly she should be up on charges and on her way to jail for filing a false allegation and abusing the justice system.
I agree, but she's still right. She didn't consent.

Here's the gist. If a man jumps from the 20th floor of a building, and you fire a gun out the 10th floor window as he passes by. Hitting him in the heart, you're guilty of murder.
 
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PoliticalNick

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What dentist/doctor can come sedate you in your own home with no witnesses?
Irrelevant, according to this ruling any prior consent I gave for any procedure is null and void when I become unconscious because I am no longer capable of withdrawing that consent.

I didn't ignore them, they're irrelevant. For the 6th time, YOU CAN NOT CONSENT TO THE INDICTABLE OFFENCE OF ASSAULT.
If you were a member of the BDSM community you would know people consent to acts defined in the CCOC as assault everyday.
 

CDNBear

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Irrelevant, according to this ruling any prior consent I gave for any procedure is null and void when I become unconscious because I am no longer capable of withdrawing that consent.


You do realize, that the SCC drew their conclusions for a definition of "consent" from the section pertaining to consent to the act of sex only, right?

What am I asking, of course you don't, you wouldn't be making these silly claims if you knew what you were talking about, lol.


If you were a member of the BDSM community you would know people consent to acts defined in the CCOC as assault everyday.
I am, well was, and I do.

But that doesn't make them legal. Number 7, you can not consent to assault.

If you don't believe me, call your local Police detachment.
 
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Praxius

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No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court - Canada - CBC News

A woman cannot give advance consent to sexual activity while unconscious, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled Friday.

The decision restores the conviction of an Ottawa man who regularly practised consensual erotic asphyxiation with his longtime girlfriend.

The case goes back to a particular episode in 2007 when the woman, who cannot be named because of a publication ban, complained to police about what her partner did to her after she passed out. At trial, the man was found guilty of sexual assault but his conviction was overturned on appeal.

On Friday, in a 6-3 decision, the country's top court restored the conviction. Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin said consent ends once someone is unconscious or asleep.

"If the complainant is unconscious during the sexual activity, she has no real way of knowing what happened and whether her partner exceeded the bounds of her consent," the ruling said.

The definition of consent is an ongoing state of mind where individuals can ask their partner to stop, McLachlin wrote.

"Any sexual activity with an individual who is incapable of consciously evaluating whether she is consenting is therefore not consensual within the meaning of the Criminal Code," she wrote.

Concerned about freedom of choice
Three Supreme Court judges disagreed. In the dissenting opinion written by Justice Morris Fish, the judges said Friday's ruling would deprive women "of their freedom to engage by choice in sexual adventures that involve no proven harm to them or to others."

They also expressed concern about the criminalization of normal sexual relations between spouses.

"The approach advocated by the Chief Justice would also result in the criminalization of a broad range of conduct that Parliament cannot have intended to capture in its definition of the offense of sexual assault. Notably, it would criminalize kissing or caressing a sleeping partner, however gently and affectionately."

Elizabeth Sheehy, a lawyer for the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, which intervened in this case, dismissed the dissenting opinion. She called the majority ruling a major victory for women.

"The most important message that the court is communicating is that unconscious women are not sexually available," she said.

The Ottawa man served 18 months in jail after his conviction in 2008 on the sexual assault charge.

---------------------------------------------

Well everybody can now say goodbye to waking up to your partner stimulating you, or kissing you, or touching you in a sexual manner before you wake up or are waking up, even if it's meant in a good way or out of pure love for one another..... because all of that can be directly related to sexual assault now..... be that man or woman doing it.

Because sometime down the road when you get in a fight or argument over something, either of you (it sounds mostly the woman) can bring that up and use it against you.

The thing that bothers me the most about this case is that it sounds to me that they did this multiple times in the past and she never had an issue with it until now.

If you agree to become unconscious prior to a sexual act because it's your thing, you just gave consent for it happening. You accepted what was about to happen and you agreed to it. Now that no longer applies. If you said you no longer wanted to do it before it happened, then yes, that'd be sexual assault if it proceeded.

It's certainly not my "thing" but I know it's many other people's "thing"

To put it simply, this ruling just made this sexual act illegal and put it in the same category as bestiality, incest and sex with minors...... an act done between two adults who generally consented with one another to do it.

That's the bottom line and in my opinion, they went over the line in regards to meddling in what we do or don't to in our own bedrooms with our own partners, regardless if they originally consented or not.

Not a good day for justice if you ask me.

And what does this say about consenting with your dentist or doctor to put you under for an operation? How do you know what they're doing while you're unconscious?

She and her partner did this many times in the past, and what's not noted in this report is that she didn't file this complaint until a few months after the incident when their relationship was going in the crapper and her partner was seeking custody of their child..... then suddenly this was no longer ok and suddenly this time it was wrong.

And the report seems to keep making the impression that this is a great step forward for women, with little mention to men.

Believe it or not, but men face sexual assault too..... and in gay male relationships, these things happen as well.... but this all seems to be geared in favor towards women.

Yet this ruling took that choice from women and now the act itself is flat-out illegal.
 

PoliticalNick

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

And what does this say about consenting with your dentist or doctor to put you under for an operation? How do you know what they're doing while you're unconscious?
I raised this point yesterday and some people blew it off as the ruling referred 'sexual activity' but I would say the principle of the ruling is quite transferable. If prior consent to sex ends at the moment of unconsciousness then why does consent for medical treatment or anything else continue. I believe there is quite a parallel to be drawn because if the doctor stuck a knife in you without consent it would be assault or attempted murder. There is no consistency if you can give prior consent in one instance but not another. Unfortunately there is nowhere to go to appeal this and it will have to be tested by someone making a claim against a surgeon that will then have to be heard by the SCC. They have definitely opened a can of worms with this ruling.
 

captain morgan

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

In rendering this judgement, the SCOC has just increased the work load of the courts with the stroke of their collective pen.

As per the letter of the law, the act, taken in it's most base form (ie without the opportunity to apply the subjective elements that are deeply involved in this case) is without any question, sexual assault.

... That said, there are some very serious ramifications.

Those that voluntarily participate in an activity such as erotic asphyxiation as a prelude to sexual contact are fully aware that the consequences of this activity may involve losing consciousness. What the SCOC has done is to effectively absolve an individual of their responsibility and participation in this act... That absolution works both ways.

Now, I've read in the papers that the Women's Liberation Front (or whatever the hell they call themselves) are calling this a victory for women everywhere... Me thinks that they will be singing a different tune when more men elect to use this defense for their own ends or convenience... It wasn't so long ago that men had the exclusive privilege of being skinned-alive in the divorce courts and low-and-behold, the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction.
 

JLM

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

I raised this point yesterday and some people blew it off as the ruling referred 'sexual activity' but I would say the principle of the ruling is quite transferable. If prior consent to sex ends at the moment of unconsciousness then why does consent for medical treatment or anything else continue. I believe there is quite a parallel to be drawn because if the doctor stuck a knife in you without consent it would be assault or attempted murder. There is no consistency if you can give prior consent in one instance but not another. Unfortunately there is nowhere to go to appeal this and it will have to be tested by someone making a claim against a surgeon that will then have to be heard by the SCC. They have definitely opened a can of worms with this ruling.

Yeah, it seems weird alright, except for one tiny little difference...............medical procedure could in some instances be conducive to saving one's life, but I'm not sure sex while unconscious ever saved a woman's life! :smile:
 

karrie

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

My point still stands... the day you can find a doc or dentist who won't lose his or her license for coming into your home and sedating you with no witnesses, then you can compare it to what this court ruled.
 

PoliticalNick

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

Yeah, it seems weird alright, except for one tiny little difference...............medical procedure could in some instances be conducive to saving one's life, but I'm not sure sex while unconscious ever saved a woman's life! :smile:
I completely understand there are differences in the situations but I am looking at the hypothetical here. The court ruled that even if she said it was ok ahead of time the minute she was unconscious her consent ended because she could no longer revoke it. This is easily transferable to being put under for a surgery. Whether the procedure will save your life or not you have the right to refuse treatment at any time. The minute you are rendered unconscious you are no longer capable of revoking consent therefore under this ruling there is no longer any validity to giving prior consent. Think about a girl being put under for a termination of pregnancy, she could wake up and say she changed her mind but due to being unconscious she could not tell the doctor therefore he has not only committed an assault but possibly a murder. I know this is kind of stretching but the SCC is supposed to consider ALL ramifications to their rulings before making judgement.

I think it is a bit of a pickle they have opened up.

My point still stands... the day you can find a doc or dentist who won't lose his or her license for coming into your home and sedating you with no witnesses, then you can compare it to what this court ruled.
It has nothing to do with the setting. Under this ruling anyone who is unconscious can no longer change their mind so any prior consent is considered invalid. It doesn't matter if you are in a clinic or hospital, you are no longer in a position to withdraw consent and the court has ruled that that automatically voids any prior consent.
 

TenPenny

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

nder this ruling anyone who is unconscious can no longer change their mind so any prior consent is considered invalid.

As someone pointed out, this means that kissing or fondling your spouse or partner when they are asleep would be sexual assault, if they woke up the next day and decided they didn't want it.
 

Tonington

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Re: No consent in unconscious sex case: Supreme Court

It doesn't matter if you are in a clinic or hospital, you are no longer in a position to withdraw consent and the court has ruled that that automatically voids any prior consent.

That is not what the court ruled. The Court was specifically questioning consent relating to sexual activities, as defined by the criminal code.

Patients which will undergo treatment must have informed consent, that is the treatment is explained, the risks are communicated, and then the patient or guardian can give consent. For treatments where the patient is conscious, they can remove consent, and the doctor must stop unless doing so would endanger the patients life.

The Supreme court has even interpreted "For God's sake stop" as a cry of pain, and not the removal of consent.

Here's some relevant reading on the question of consent in medical applications:
Supreme Court of Canada - Decisions - Ciarlariello v. Schacter
 

karrie

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Oh come Tonington, you know that sex, and medical practice are apples and apples. So are unconsciousness due to drugs or oxygen deprivation, and sleep.

I can see why people would object to the ruling on some grounds, but the level to which some are taking it is frankly amusing.