SCC Decision on Consent

SLM

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Mar 5, 2011
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No. This also impacts men who take home a woman who is drunk or high, and passes out. It is a legal ruling that an unconscious person can not give consent to sexual activities. The two are no different.
Yes but it's always impacted those individuals. That is whom I believe it was written for in the first place.

The SCC has now included individuals who have lost consciousness during a consenual act. That's where this specific decision impacts only those couples.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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So really this only impacts couples who engage in erotic asphyxiation. Are there really that many of them? The entire conscious/consent wording in the criminal code is typically applied when someone drinks a little too much and passes out. You know those, she didn't actually say no kind of situations.
There's a reason why slipping a woman a ruffy is illegal.

Also, the court ruled not on every kind of consent, but specifically consent as defined in the sections of the criminal code that deal with sexual assault.
Correct.

So if you have a friend over at your house and say "help yourself to a drink" and then take a nap, this ruling won't let you take your friend to court when you wake up and find that he drank the last of your OJ.
Not necessarily, as noted by the dissenting Justices. There's been room left open for argument.

Which is why the Gov't now needs to address the CCoC.
 

PoliticalNick

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Mar 8, 2011
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No. This also impacts men who take home a woman who is drunk or high, and passes out. It is a legal ruling that an unconscious person can not give consent to sexual activities. The two are no different.
That has always been sexual assault and is an unfair comparison. This case was about two people who participated in consensual erotic asphyxiation where prior consent to sex acts while unconscious was given not only this one time but on many prior occasions.
 

CDNBear

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So if she signed it on paper ahead of time it would be OK???
What part of choking someone is illegal, and you can not consent to assault, are you having difficulty grasping?

It is called erotic asphyxiation and as you put it...happens daily!
And there's a little thing called BDSM, and if the law feels there's a chance for conviction, they'll address the issue.

Assault is an indictable offence, you can not consent to an indictable offence, full stop.
 

PoliticalNick

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happens daily does not make it legal.
There are states in the south that still have laws against anal sex. Utah still has a law forbidding oral sex. Should there be millions of prosecutions on these too?

What happens in a couples bedroom with prior consent is no place for the law.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Yes but it's always impacted those individuals. That is whom I believe it was written for in the first place.

The SCC has now included individuals who have lost consciousness during a consenual act. That's where this specific decision impacts only those couples.

I guess it's a matter of semantics, but this decision underscores the laws as they pertain to consent while unconscious. That applies to many cases.
 

PoliticalNick

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What part of choking someone is illegal, and you can not consent to assault, are you having difficulty grasping?

And there's a little thing called BDSM, and if the law feels there's a chance for conviction, they'll address the issue.

Assault is an indictable offence, you can not consent to an indictable offence, full stop.
So we should see thousand of convictions in the boxing and MMA world upcoming right???
 

karrie

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That has always been sexual assault and is an unfair comparison. This case was about two people who participated in consensual erotic asphyxiation where prior consent to sex acts while unconscious was given not only this one time but on many prior occasions.

The implied consent for erotic asphyxiation applies to the act that one is engaged in at the time of the choke out, not for a switch up once unconscious.

There are states in the south that still have laws against anal sex. Utah still has a law forbidding oral sex. Should there be millions of prosecutions on these too?

What happens in a couples bedroom with prior consent is no place for the law.

The comparisons you are using are normal expressions of sexuality that do not bring about the risk of death, or cause brain damage when done 'properly'. While I get what you're saying, consenting adults don't end up in a court room anyway.... the courts didn't chase this case down.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
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I guess it's a matter of semantics, but this decision underscores the laws as they pertain to consent while unconscious. That applies to many cases.
Agreed, it does underscore the law pertaining to consent.

And I'm not saying that I disagree with the judgement either.

But it does raise the issue of, let's say, non-mainstream sexual activities between consenting adults. At what point do we draw that line? It does raise that question.
 

CDNBear

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So we should see thousand of convictions in the boxing and MMA world upcoming right???
You should read the CCoC, specifically section 83, and then look up the legitimate "Commission" boxing exemption.

Why do you think the MMA has taken so long to get here? Couldn't find Canada on the map?
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
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You should read the CCoC, specifically section 83, and then look up the legitimate "Commission" boxing exemption.

Why do you think the MMA has taken so long to get here? Couldn't find Canada on the map?
There's a USA joke in there somewhere, but I will refrain. :)
 

Corduroy

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Feb 9, 2011
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But it does raise the issue of, let's say, non-mainstream sexual activities between consenting adults. At what point do we draw that line? It does raise that question.

You draw the line at consent. The court in this case ruled on what constitutes consent.
 

karrie

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Agreed, it does underscore the law pertaining to consent.

And I'm not saying that I disagree with the judgement either.

But it does raise the issue of, let's say, non-mainstream sexual activities between consenting adults. At what point do we draw that line? It does raise that question.


It raises that question only by implying that the woman was consenting and the charges were false and the sentence wrong.

Two consenting adults enjoying some slap and tickle or deprivation play, will typically never end up in court charging one another, and thus have no concerns about how the law pertains to what they are doing. The courts don't go chasing down BDSM shows, or arresting dominatrixes. They worry about how the law applies to this stuff only when someone comes in and claims that it was done against their will, or breached their trust in some manner.
 

TenPenny

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I was under the impression that the ruling was that a woman can only give consent so long as she is conscious to do so. You object to that?

If the woman gives consent to having choking sex that leads to her being unconscious, what do you do with that?

If one person kisses another when one is asleep, what do you do with that?
 

PoliticalNick

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The implied consent for erotic asphyxiation applies to the act that one is engaged in at the time of the choke out, not for a switch up once unconscious.
I would agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this case, she gave prior consent on the occasion in question and on other prior occasions, she also did not have an issue until an argument over child custody months after the fact. The fact that it was overturned in the provincial courts after she admitted to lying about the facts should be where it ends.

The comparisons you are using are normal expressions of sexuality that do not bring about the risk of death, or cause brain damage when done 'properly'.
And just whose definition of normal sexuality are we using here?

While I get what you're saying, consenting adults don't end up in a court room anyway.... the courts didn't chase this case down.
You are correct but this case was brought about initially for revenge over a threat made in an argument and once it was overturned because of her lies it was hijacked by the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund and not taken to the SCC by the original complainant.

Please don't get me wrong, if this was clear-cut sexual assault I would help you throw the book at the guy but for the court to rule on what I and my wife are allowed to do with prior consent in our bedroom is wrong.

I believe the next time I need surgery I will wake up and say I wanted to withdraw my prior consent but couldn't because I was unconscious and sue for millions and see where that goes with this precedent.

It raises that question only by implying that the woman was consenting and the charges were false and the sentence wrong.
Therein lies the rub. It was originally overturned because it was determined the charges were in fact false and she had lied about consenting to the specific act.
 

karrie

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Without knowing more about the original case or who decided and how, I can't say that simply having it ruled against in a provincial court meant it was the right ruling.
 

CDNBear

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I would agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this case, she gave prior consent on the occasion in question and on other prior occasions, she also did not have an issue until an argument over child custody months after the fact. The fact that it was overturned in the provincial courts after she admitted to lying about the facts should be where it ends.
Prior consent, on prior occasions, is irrelevant.

Furthermore, there is no statue of limitations on indictable offences.

And just whose definition of normal sexuality are we using here?
The CCoC, do you want the section and subsection numbers?

Please don't get me wrong, if this was clear-cut sexual assault I would help you throw the book at the guy but for the court to rule on what I and my wife are allowed to do with prior consent in our bedroom is wrong.
You can not consent to assault, even if you ignore my posts, choking someone, is an indictable offence.

I believe the next time I need surgery I will wake up and say I wanted to withdraw my prior consent but couldn't because I was unconscious and sue for millions and see where that goes with this precedent.
Why are facts so hard for you to grasp?

Without knowing more about the original case or who decided and how, I can't say that simply having it ruled against in a provincial court meant it was the right ruling.
Karrie, there must have been some legal precedent, the SCC does not simply take on cases for sh!ts and giggles.
 

PoliticalNick

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Prior consent, on prior occasions, is irrelevant.
It establishes a pattern of behavior and as you know that is relevant.

The CCoC, do you want the section and subsection numbers?
Yeah sure, I would like to know all the criminal acts my wife and I engage in on a regular basis.

You can not consent to assault, even if you ignore my posts, choking someone, is an indictable offence.
People engage in breath-play, flogging, spanking and other such activities all the time with consent, I suppose we shall soon see a big backlog in the courts surrounding these cases of assault.

Why are facts so hard for you to grasp?
Why are they so hard for you to grasp? She admitted the original complaint was only motivated by an argument of child custody and that she lied about the facts. The provincial court made the right decision to overturn the case based on it being a false complaint and that should have been where it ended.
 

CDNBear

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It establishes a pattern of behavior and as you know that is relevant.
No, what I know is, it's inadmissible.

Yeah sure, I would like to know all the criminal acts my wife and I engage in on a regular basis.
Criminal Code

I can't be bothered to actually do all the work.

People engage in breath-play, flogging, spanking and other such activities all the time with consent, I suppose we shall soon see a big backlog in the courts surrounding these cases of assault.
What part of Karries post, and my other post, didn't you grasp?

Why are they so hard for you to grasp?
They aren't. Which is why I don't ignore posts that contain them.

She admitted the original complaint was only motivated by an argument of child custody and that she lied about the facts. The provincial court made the right decision to overturn the case based on it being a false complaint and that should have been where it ended.
She lied about when, not what. The SCC isn't in the habit of taking on just any case that someone drops on their door step. There had to be legal standing.

Why am I arguing law with someone that doesn't even understand 'subject matter jurisdiction'?