Refuse to choose® women deserve better® than abortion

[AnnaG]

Exactly so, JLM. Same as fetus is a potential human being. So is sperm or egg.

Make up your mind, please. You said. "DNA takes from a man when he was alive and taken from him a week later when he is dead will be identical. But that doesn’t mean he is still a human being, after he has died. "
JLM subsequently said,"OF COURSE HE'S A HUMAN BEING- he's just a dead human being."
And now you say "exactly".

 

[AnnaG]

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

That is a very useful maxim , Anna (and Sherlock Holmes is my favorite detective). But that does not tell us what to put into the basket in the first place. Let me explain.

Let us say that a basket cantains an apple, a banana, a pineapple and a grape. You reach into the basket and pull a fruit at random. Without looking at it you try to guess what it is. You eliminate banana because of its shape, it is the wrong shape. You eliminate pineapple because of the size and texture. It feels roundish and smooth. You eliminate grape because of the size. What is left is an apple and you conclude that it is an apple.

So far, so good. However, who decides what to put in the basket in the first place? Let us say that we put a banana, a pineapple, a grape and an orange in the basket. We pull a fruit at random. Now, the argument, the logic will be exactly the same as before, but this time we conclude that it is an orange, instead of an apple.

A baby's parts don't change. A limb with still be a limb, a heart will be a h3eart. Anyway, the best way to solve you silly puzzle is to dump the blindfold and look. The you say, hmmm it's a basket of fruit. We do have visual techniques to make sure that a wiggly thing inside a woman is a human, not a tree or a toad.

Exactly the same argument, different conclusion. The same applies here. Who decides what to put in the basket? You may put ‘human being’ into the basket along with other items, I don’t. Then I may use exactly the same argument, the same logic as you and reach a different conclusion.

No. It isn't the same argument nor is it the same logic. The deduction from logic would be that it is a basket containing different fruits, not which fruit is which.

 

[JLM]

Make up your mind, please. You said. "DNA takes from a man when he was alive and taken from him a week later when he is dead will be identical. But that doesn’t mean he is still a human being, after he has died. "
JLM subsequently said,"OF COURSE HE'S A HUMAN BEING- he's just a dead human being."
And now you say "exactly".

Hey Anna - we are NOT going to win this one and I'll tell you why. S.J. has picked out the end point he has to reach before considering the data, logical people scruitinize and process the data and let it take them to the end point. The path a human being takes is long and developmental and part of it is prenatal and most of the time the biggest part is post natal. S.J. says a fetus looks nothing like a baby, so what a baby bears no resemblance to an 80 year old. We've already determined the D.N.A. is human in every stage, we've determined it's alive by a multitude of functions (processing food, oxygen) etc. etc. May as well terminate this thread here. :lol:

 

[AnnaG]

Nah, I just won't continue talking with a wall. What Sir Joey is doing is trying to undefine a human being by using individual parts separately. I had enough.

Anyway, women deserve the right of choice over our own bodies, no-one else and babies deserve the right to live once they are conceived. It is simply a matter of determining which is most important. IMO, a baby that does not have a relatively normal chance of a relatively normal life is not a good balance for the life of its Mum. Even babies that are born of rape deserve to live. Any other reason for abortion isn't reasonable, IMO. Guys have a choice not to impregnate women and women have a choice to not accept sperm.

 

[ironsides]

Does that really make it 6, ironsides? I didn’t know.

Anyway, it would be 6-3, ironsides, not 6-4.

And no way they are going to vote as a block. Some Catholics (such as Scalia, Alito) are very conservative (and obey the Pope), others (such as Sottomayer) are liberal (and do not obey the Pope). I don’t think there is any possibility of their voting as a block.

Indeed, there are many Catholic politicians who do not obey the Pope (no doubt some do). Kennedy, Biden, Pelosi, I could name several. So I don’t think there is any real danger of that.

No danger, but a possibility.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Make up your mind, please. You said. "DNA takes from a man when he was alive and taken from him a week later when he is dead will be identical. But that doesn’t mean he is still a human being, after he has died. "
JLM subsequently said,"OF COURSE HE'S A HUMAN BEING- he's just a dead human being."
And now you say "exactly".

So where is the problem, Anna? Surely there is big difference between a human being and a dead human being?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

No. It isn't the same argument nor is it the same logic. The deduction from logic would be that it is a basket containing different fruits, not which fruit is which.

Anna, the important part in the analogy was which fruits to put into the basket, and who decides. You want to eliminate the impossible and see what is left in the basket. But who decides to put a ‘human being’ into the basket? Maybe you do, but I don’t.

A baby's parts don't change. A limb with still be a limb, a heart will be a h3eart. Anyway, the best way to solve you silly puzzle is to dump the blindfold and look.

Again, you miss the point, blindfold is not the point. The point is, which fruit to put into the basket, and who decides?

 

[AnnaG]

I repeat

Nah, I just won't continue talking with a wall. What Sir Joey is doing is trying to undefine a human being by using individual parts separately. I had enough.

Have it your way, a fetus in a human mother is a mushroom.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You are probably right JLM, perhaps we have discussed the subject to death. I am OK to stop here. As to changing anybody’s mind, I don’t think discussions like this change anybody’s mind, that is very rare.

Anyway, thanks to both you and Anna for a very good discussion. You both gave as good as you got, and that makes for an interesting, stimulating discussion.

 

[Tonington]

Exactly the same argument, different conclusion. The same applies here. Who decides what to put in the basket? You may put ‘human being’ into the basket along with other items, I don’t. Then I may use exactly the same argument, the same logic as you and reach a different conclusion.

Are you serious? How can you fail to put "human" in the basket in this case? We're talking about a living thing, inside a human woman's womb. You'd have to be on crack to not put "human" in the basket as a possibility for what it is that comes out.

There is nothing logical about leaving human out of the basket.

 

[Francis2004]

You are probably right JLM, perhaps we have discussed the subject to death. I am OK to stop here. As to changing anybody’s mind, I don’t think discussions like this change anybody’s mind, that is very rare.

Anyway, thanks to both you and Anna for a very good discussion. You both gave as good as you got, and that makes for an interesting, stimulating discussion.

It may not change your mind right away SJP, but it may give you fruit for thought you never had.. I myself have changed my position on the topic in the last few years and would tend to say I am more anti then pro today and see few times when it should be allowed..

Yet on other topics I have done the opposite.. Such as Death penalty where I was more in favour of in past and now I am more against..

So in times, views can change..

 

[lone wolf]

There is nothing logical about arguing logic with Porter. Deliberate obstinacy is his game. He delights in seeing how long it will take to wear his opponent down to the point where he can claim victory.

Really, who puts air in their tires these days? In all these years, I remember putting air in my tires maybe once or twice (once when I had a small puncture but was too lazy to change the tire until I got home).

These days the inner liner in the tires is so good that you don’t need to put air in them. I think this move will be a wash. I don’t see them taking in anything substantial. They will be lucky if they recover the expense of installing the coin machine.

Don't feed the troll

 

[Cannuck]

It may not change your mind right away SJP, but it may give you fruit for thought you never had.. I myself have changed my position on the topic in the last few years and would tend to say I am more anti then pro today and see few times when it should be allowed..

I have also changed my opinion on the death penalty, abortion, political parties and many other topics. It's called being open minded. That is the part that Joey doesn't understand. If he can give me a credible argument in support of his position, I'm more than willing to take it into consideration. He is confusing his inability to do so with other people not being open minded. It reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy folks....everybody else just doesn't get it. That's easier for them to accept than the reality that their position doesn't make sense.

 

[Cliffy]

I have also changed my opinion on the death penalty, abortion, political parties and many other topics. It's called being open minded. That is the part that Joey doesn't understand. If he can give me a credible argument in support of his position, I'm more than willing to take it into consideration. He is confusing his inability to do so with other people not being open minded. It reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy folks....everybody else just doesn't get it. That's easier for them to accept than the reality that their position doesn't make sense.

But just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to others. That is the real secret to open mindedness, the ability to accept that others can be right unto themselves.

I make a lot of comments on here but I do not expect anybody to agree with me. In fact a lot of the time I don't agree with what I say. A lot of the time I am testing out ideas, playing devil's advocate or holding up a mirror. The truth is subjective. We are all the blind man holding the elephant's testicles thinking that that is what an elephant is.

 

[Kreskin]

Refuse to choose? Isn't that statement promoting choice?

 

[Cannuck]

But just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to others. That is the real secret to open mindedness, the ability to accept that others can be right unto themselves.

Nope. Hitler was "right unto himself". Accepting Hitler's actions does not equal open mindedness.

 

[AnnaG]

But just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to others. That is the real secret to open mindedness, the ability to accept that others can be right unto themselves.

I make a lot of comments on here but I do not expect anybody to agree with me. In fact a lot of the time I don't agree with what I say. A lot of the time I am testing out ideas, playing devil's advocate or holding up a mirror. The truth is subjective. We are all the blind man holding the elephant's testicles thinking that that is what an elephant is.

That's what makes opinion, opinion. Facts are irrefutable and independent of opinion, however.

 

[AnnaG]

Refuse to choose? Isn't that statement promoting choice?

It's promoting a choice of one sort to avoid a choice of another sort. One can accept or refuse something, which is a choice. The subject of the sentence in consideration of the thread topic urges women to refuse abortion. So it's a choice concerning a choice.

 

[Cliffy]

Nope. Hitler was "right unto himself". Accepting Hitler's actions does not equal open mindedness.

You accept that Hitler was right unto himself but you reject his actions as being "right". But if he had won the war, the prevailing attitude would be that he was right. In the end, the west was just as guilty for refusing the ship of fools to land on their soil and sent them back to Hitler to be carted of to the concentration camps. A condemnation of Hitler would then entail a condemnation of the Allies.

 

[AnnaG]

It would appear that Hitler was right if you consider the anti-Jewish sentiment at CC. 0.0