Protests across Canada denounce wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

[tracy]

Weakness is giving in to the voices advocating violence..the true way of the bully who wats to beat up the little kid who dares disagree with him.

Too simplistic. The world is way more complex than a schoolyard analogy can convey. Would stopping a genocidal regime from killing their own citizens make us a bully (take the Sudan for instance)? I always thought it was a good thing to stand up for the defenseless and that doesn't make someone a bully in my book.

 

[talloola]

Probably as much credibility as American jets flying over Baghdad dropping bombs on their population. Or are people of the Middle East less innocent than others?

Absolutely not, I was only referring to the likes of Osama Bin Laden, or George Bush, or anyone else who
bombs innocent people. I do agree with your view, that is the ultimate view.
One of the "saddest" situations right now, is, the United Nations has no credability either, the body
to which countries should "vent" their problems to. So, if they can't, or won't have "strength", and if
many countries don't respect them, what comes next.
I hope the new "head" of the united nations, (forget his name) can pull it together.
The united nations should be a "body" that all countries "respect" and look up to, I hope that happens
now. The head of Iran just "thumbs" his nose at the united nations, disturbing.
But I still stand by my initial statement, Osama Bin Laden, killed thousands of poeple for no reason at
all, just because he hates the west?, just because he hates the u.s.?. There are others guilty of awful acts, other than the u.s., they just happen to have the sofisticated equipment. Just lets hope that people like Bin Laden and such dont get their hands on nuclear equipment, they won't care who they kill, they don't believe in our life anyway, they want the next life. What a crock.
Many horrible things happen to people in other parts of the world that we don't see, but we know its
happening, nothing to do with the u.s.
I hate what they did too, but they are not alone, and when George Bush is gone, and the u.s. elect a more "diplomatic" government, which I "prey" they will, the u.s. will begin to "heal" and find a better
way of reacting to (for lack of a better word) terrorism.

 

[talloola]

The mythological Isolationist Heritage of the USA arises in defensive conversation as does the mythological demands on the mythological love of mythological Americans for the victimhood of the worlds unamericanised underclass. What horrific crap.Someday those who espouse such hateful rot will face the judgement of the world court. Ignorance will be no excuse.:smile:

I understand what you mean, but I can't think of "anything" this bad, as final. The positive side of this should be, when the u.s. people cast their next vote. They can make their statement, and
make it strong. They need "strong" diplomacy, and there are good people in the government, and
those who "will" be in government, who will be the voice of "diplomacy", but the "people" have to see
that, and take control.
The U.S. is in a terrible state right now, but they haven't always been that way, and they don't have
to be in the "near" future either. They can begin to mend fences, and work their way back into the
world of respect. I'm a positive person, and will not "condemn" forever.
George Bush has "shamed" his country, let alone what he has done elsewhere. If I were an American
I would feel so sad and embarrassed to have him at the "helm".
But it can change, and lets hope it does. Noone can undo what has been done, but we can all look
ahead, with hope.

 

[darkbeaver]

I understand what you mean, but I can't think of "anything" this bad, as final. The positive side of this should be, when the u.s. people cast their next vote. They can make their statement, and
make it strong. They need "strong" diplomacy, and there are good people in the government, and
those who "will" be in government, who will be the voice of "diplomacy", but the "people" have to see
that, and take control.
The U.S. is in a terrible state right now, but they haven't always been that way, and they don't have
to be in the "near" future either. They can begin to mend fences, and work their way back into the
world of respect. I'm a positive person, and will not "condemn" forever.
George Bush has "shamed" his country, let alone what he has done elsewhere. If I were an American
I would feel so sad and embarrassed to have him at the "helm".
But it can change, and lets hope it does. Noone can undo what has been done, but we can all look
ahead, with hope.

There next vote will make no difference, the same ruling class will still be in power, that ruling class does not depend on anything as gaseous as American democracy to rule. The American nation was a shame long before GW Bush was born. There are no good people in that government, the good are removed or they are shot. What rules this world is money and power, do not look to the western powers for solutions to the worlds problems, they are not what they pretend to be. There is no hope without revolution niether for the American people nor Canadians, I know many good Americans, I read many good Americans and they agree with me and I with them untill capitalism is brought to heel nothing will change, it has no god but profit and it works death and privation in the service of that god. I am a positive person you are an honest loving dreamer.:smile:

 

[gopher]

The crowds were larger here than ever before, and I was amongst them. It takes a far braver man to cry "peace" than it does to say "war".

And the crowds are larger everywhere else, especially in Spain where the pro-peace rallies drew huge crowds.

Peace is patriotic and heroic.

 

[darkbeaver]

The crowds were larger here than ever before, and I was amongst them. It takes a far braver man to cry "peace" than it does to say "war".

And the crowds are larger everywhere else, especially in Spain where the pro-peace rallies drew huge crowds.

Peace is patriotic and heroic.

Peace is above all else beautiful and I wish it would be so.:smile:

 

[Sparrow]

Please stop this...... why do you Canadians have it in for the people in the U.S. so badly? What have they ever done to you? Personally I mean? Has an American come up to you and spit on you or slapped you in your face, or hurt your loved ones or robbed you or what?

I see lots of hate in my work but nothing like this undefined, free floating anger Canadians seem to indulge in..... be mad at me for bringing to the forefront of this topic.... but please look to yourselves to at least understand what it is you are so angry about....don't pack the junk around...there is nothing you can do about another nation's decisions.

If the U.S. is on a path to destruction, why is it any of your concern or business?

Be concerned for your own nation and see this kind of aggressive stuff is stopped, and however long it takes. For two powerful western nations to be engaged in a snippy little war of words leaves no hope for future cooperation in any important movements around the globe....strangely enough there are still people who count on the democracies of our world to set things right eventually.

You may have pushed away... if not a good friend.... but a necessary ally. Is that what you wish?

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY: The critic is of the US Adminstration NOT THE PEOPLE.
We critic the US Gov. as much as the Can. Gov., have you read some of the posts we are not any gentler with our gov. Your gov. bamboozled you as much as our does to us. Our gov. didn't even take to trouble to ask us if we wanted our soldiers to fight in Afghanstan.

The protest on the weekend about the war in Iraq is because it makes a lot of people feel unsafe and that is not only in Canada. However the protest was equally against our involvement in Afghanistan so you can't say we are playing favorites.

I have nothing against the Americans except maybe those who still mouth their undying loyality to that idiot Bush. My calling him an idiot might frustrate you but I have a right to my opinion because I think he is making more enemies around the world than is healthy for any country.

 

[talloola]

There next vote will make no difference, the same ruling class will still be in power, that ruling class does not depend on anything as gaseous as American democracy to rule. The American nation was a shame long before GW Bush was born. There are no good people in that government, the good are removed or they are shot. What rules this world is money and power, do not look to the western powers for solutions to the worlds problems, they are not what they pretend to be. There is no hope without revolution niether for the American people nor Canadians, I know many good Americans, I read many good Americans and they agree with me and I with them untill capitalism is brought to heel nothing will change, it has no god but profit and it works death and privation in the service of that god. I am a positive person you are an honest loving dreamer.:smile:

Hey Bud, they have nowhere to go but "up", even if it's just a little. And, even if I sound like an honest
loving dreamer,(that's kind of nice actually,) I agree with you, money and power and greed are in charge of everything in the world. The western world will never revolt, we are all too spoiled, but
I suppose when there is "no" work left, and wages have "sunk to the lowest", and all of the jobs have been sent overseas, and we actually begin to suffer,in ways that we have never experienced, then eyes will open, but, "then what"?
Are there any countries who run a good clean government, fair to their people, and honest?
Would we rather be "under" the Saudi Royal Family? How about North Korea, or Russia, Pakistan,
India, China. Maybe I will go back to Dublin, where my dad was born, how is it there.

 

[darkbeaver]

Hey Bud, they have nowhere to go but "up", even if it's just a little. And, even if I sound like an honest
loving dreamer,(that's kind of nice actually,) I agree with you, money and power and greed are in charge of everything in the world. The western world will never revolt, we are all too spoiled, but
I suppose when there is "no" work left, and wages have "sunk to the lowest", and all of the jobs have been sent overseas, and we actually begin to suffer,in ways that we have never experienced, then eyes will open, but, "then what"?
Are there any countries who run a good clean government, fair to their people, and honest?
Would we rather be "under" the Saudi Royal Family? How about North Korea, or Russia, Pakistan,
India, China. Maybe I will go back to Dublin, where my dad was born, how is it there.

Never is a very long time, I could list the things that would or could never happen but did, you already know them. Revolution never stops for long, it's like evolution.There are many countries who do run good clean governments. A world of honest loving dreamers is a good place to start the changes our children and the planet need. I am no less a dreamer than you, but I've seen enough of those who run our western world to know they are killers and thieves without hearts or souls.:smile:

 

[darkbeaver]

Hey Bud, they have nowhere to go but "up", even if it's just a little. And, even if I sound like an honest
loving dreamer,(that's kind of nice actually,) I agree with you, money and power and greed are in charge of everything in the world. The western world will never revolt, we are all too spoiled, but
I suppose when there is "no" work left, and wages have "sunk to the lowest", and all of the jobs have been sent overseas, and we actually begin to suffer,in ways that we have never experienced, then eyes will open, but, "then what"?
Are there any countries who run a good clean government, fair to their people, and honest?
Would we rather be "under" the Saudi Royal Family? How about North Korea, or Russia, Pakistan,
India, China. Maybe I will go back to Dublin, where my dad was born, how is it there.

Never is a very long time, I could list the things that would never happen but you already know them. Revolution never stops for long, it's like evolution.There are many countries who do run good clean governments. A world of honest loving dreamers is a good place to start the changes our children and the planet need. I am no less a dreamer than you, but I've seen enough of those who run our western world to know they are killers and thieves without hearts or souls.:smile:

 

[earth_as_one]

West, you are so confused. You really should move to the USA. WE DON'T HAVE TROOPS IN IRAQ.....Why do you write as if you were an American? Has the USA annexed Manitoba????

Technically that's not true. Canada doesn't have many troops in Iraq. But Canadians have served in Iraq with Americans as part of the military exchange program.

...U.S. defense arrangements with Canada are more extensive than with any other country. The Permanent Joint Board of Defense, established in 1940, provides policy-level consultation on bilateral defense matters. The United States and Canada share NATO mutual security commitments. In addition, U.S. and Canadian military forces have cooperated since 1958 on continental air defense within the framework of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD). There is also an active military exchange program between the two countries under which Canadian Forces personnel have been involved in Iraq. Moreover, interoperability with the American armed forces has been a guiding principle of Canadian military force structuring and doctrine since the end of the Cold War. Canadian navy frigates, for instance, integrate seamlessly into U.S. carrier battle groups...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-Canada_relations

So yes a few Canadian soldiers serve in Iraq and our warships patrol the Persian Gulf. Even though I don't support what the US government does in Iraq, its a good idea to exchange soldiers with all our close allies. That means Canadian soldiers go where these nations send them.

Also Dublin has improved tremendously in the last 20 years. The EU has been good for Ireland.

 

[s243a]

The protesters should go to this site for some good protest music.
http://www.therightbrothers.com/
lol

 

[sanctus]

The crowds were larger here than ever before, and I was amongst them. It takes a far braver man to cry "peace" than it does to say "war".

And the crowds are larger everywhere else, especially in Spain where the pro-peace rallies drew huge crowds.

Peace is patriotic and heroic.

That is true. And it is funny that some people react with hostility to the concept of peace, as if the very idea was never to be considered. We fall victim to war because in general most people do not think outside of the box. Men like Dr. King, who non-violent ethics influenced the world, are seen as exceptions. But let's not forget the millions who heard, and still hear, this message.

 

[AndyF]

both films illustrate how gleefully we rush to engage in conflicts based on false pretenses, and allow our young and brave (and often naive) to bear the brunt of this greedy war profiteering. Both films effectively show that the mentality forced into the minds of the young and willing make them efficient killing machines, but the training falls woefully short of teaching the diplomatic and policing skills necessary to effectively win the hearts and minds of the people they're supposedly fighting for. This is ultimately what lost the war in Vietnam, and will likely lose the war in Iraq as well.

It has been noted that the US spends less time on diplomacy and goes right to military at a drop of the hat. Excuses for military conflict aside, it is remarkable how a peoples don't see anything in the statistics. What are the odds that a new war "just happens" to come along every decade, and sometimes twice in a decade. What are the odds that of all the nations on earth, only the US seems to see a crucial conflict somewhere and is able to coax it's allies in joining. They should know better.

Is it coincidental that a waring nation just happens to have a huge standing army? The citizens need to know they're taxes are going to a worthy cause, hence the need for the military skirmishes on occasion protecting the motherland against the threatening sythe weilding bedouin who is a definite threat to the homeland. Another is the reality that armies need practice, and new equipment needs to be tested in battlefield conditions. It's for a very good reason that the generals meet in the white house on a daily bases, and AIPAC will take advantage of this war mentality to demand yet billions more for handouts that haven't been required since Israel obtained nuclear weapons deliverability. The war propaganda needs to be continually drummed up in order to keep the machinery lubricated. No general wants to retire and if the opportunity to become a hero or promoted exists, it's to their advantage.

Peace makes for little opportunity to become a public hero, a hero soldier, or a famous president. Too many coincidences point to this and natural resource plunder as being the reasons for all the bloodshed.

Even if the forces were to withdraw from Iraq and Afganistan, the aftermath won't diminish until a few generations of muslims have gone, and the decendants forget that they're loved ones were bombed and families decimated just so the US can test out another new weapon. These people fight generational wars, and cannot be expected to willingly sign a surrender paper. This type of war is passe and Bush doesn't get it. This is where my grandkids will pay the price for Bush's global adventure and his "live for today" policies.

Decades from now our grandkids will also ask "why?" after they experience their 9/11. Everything will be forgotten except for a few older ones who will still remember and know the answer.

Stop the insanity now for our children's sake.

AndyF

 

[Curiosity]

That is true. And it is funny that some people react with hostility to the concept of peace, as if the very idea was never to be considered. We fall victim to war because in general most people do not think outside of the box. Men like Dr. King, who non-violent ethics influenced the world, are seen as exceptions. But let's not forget the millions who heard, and still hear, this message.

Sanctus

I appreciate what you are trying to demonstrate here that peace and its cries to be heard are far more powerful in the advancement of mankind than war. I agree totally.

I beg you however not to use the fallible analogy comparing the Civil Rights Movement and Dr. King's eloquence and his far sighted pleading - when speaking of today's current professional "peace protesters" who mock all that is good.

Perhaps you are not aware there are paid activists who move around from place to place organizing these events, stirring up rhetorical hate and if their message is "peace" ....

I would very much like to witness what "peace" is ever achieved from these mob-mongers.

People are not "reacting with hostility" to the message of peace at all. They are reacting to the message being delivered by the activists.

Do you not realize they preach hate rather than peace? What possible good can that bring to us ?

It has nothing to do with peace, or sympathy for Afghanistan or Iraq, or the military who are the luckless pawns.... it is a political message.... driven home under an honorable banner, with dishonorable intention.

Perhaps you are sequestered from this in your spiritual life to smell the blood lust they create.
It is hate.

 

[mabudon]

Great post, AndyF, the last line is especially true and earnest

Curiosity- maybe the "hate" you aer feeling is actually just frustration at people like YOU putting stupid labels on everything- now you have gone so far as to say, basically, that anyone who is against the wars in the Middle East is some kind of "Hater", which is so ridiculous it ALMOST doesn't warrant addressing... ALMOST, that is

And since you're here representing the US, as you claimed (in that ridiculous rhetoric-laden "question" post a page or so ago) I am doing for Canadians, lemme say this- same as YOU called out ALL Canadians for the views I supposedly represent, I am calling the kettle black here and saying that YOU make it look like the citizenry is a bunch of wishy-washy idiots- "Oh I don't like people killing people, but anyone who would speak out against this war is some kind of hater, so I guess I'll try REALLY hard to find some reason to half-arsed support it, and call all those who think diffferently various silly names and pretend that they are somehow below my high (and HIGHLY confused" pseudo-moral stance"

That is what you keep doing in this thread, and you wonder why folks keep calling BS on it, well I'll tell you why- because SOME of us have ourt heads screwed on TIGHT, pulled the wool outta our eyes long ago and can call a duck a duck. I am NOT wishy washy- as a Canadian, I want our troops out of Afghanistan NOW, and while I know there's many of my countryfolk who would oppose that, I will defend MY stance with FACTS and THOUGHT and HISTORY and REALITY, I WILL not go the cheap route of pretending I have some morality that others CAN NOT possess. THAT is where you likely see a lot of the phoney hate you keep calling on anyone who does not think wars in foreign countries are the bees knees.

It isn't "hate", it's frustration (BTW I am laughing and smiling 99% of the time while reading and posting here, but since I don't use that waving smiley like DB does, I guess the wit is lost on many folks)

 

[Curiosity]

Mabudon - you are welcome to disagree - but try to refrain from low insult -

Advertisements run in tiny "social newspapers" regularly for protest leaders in various causes - they pay well depending upon the nature and locale of the protest. I think they are awarded bonuses for the crowd size and attention from the media.

If you are so informed how is it you think these are spontaneous events circulated in pubs and the internet or word of mouth only... they are highly organized and do well in matters of publicity. It is a lucrative method of protest..... I would even call it legitimate if the message were uplifting... but it is not. It is based on the word "anti" rather than "pro". That would be my objection. Further...

My post was to do with the analogy of Dr. King's speeches on the Civil Rights Movement and the current "Peace Protests" which do not promote peace whatsoever.

Sorry you didn't get my long winded message. Perhaps loosening up your head?
I will write it slowly.... I do not believe in war either.

 

[jimmoyer]

All this self-serving righteousness ----not advocacy for peace ----- makes me go look for
my wading boots. Perhaps the righteous advocates of peace tend to ignore certain dangers
and this willing blindness concerns those who are more realistic, less simple.
It's a valid point. Ignore it all you will.


On the other hand, because of the miserable prosecution of the aftermath of the Iraqi war,
and the attendent corruption and incompetence, I feel United States has made a miserable mistake.

I can only hope that the SURGE coupled with the retiring of much of the Shia militia and Sadr retreating temporarily that Baghdad will survive only in the future as a completely Shia city. The Sunni will lose.

You don't see similar sentiments coming to the forefront from the peace crowd.
They really do care more about a negative: Bring the USA to its knees MORE THAN
they care about Iraq getting a SECOND CHANCE.

Look at the mere quantity of posts. Any emphasis on assisting the Iraqis is an
after thought, prioritized way behind the righteous and correct criticism of the
United States.


-------------------------------------------

As a separate point, a lot of people like to bring up Ghandi.
Ghandi himself gave great credit to Thoreau's essay Civil Disobedience written during the
1845 Mexican-American War. Another interesting fact is that all of you should read
the front page of any WWII newspaper on June 6.

You will see 3 amazing major events. Allies finally capture Rome after the horror of Anzio,
and on this same day is the Normandy Invasion.

Also on the same page of those 2 momentous developments is Ghandi leading a peaceful
revolt against British control.

During all of this I can't help but notice the forebearance of the British rulers not to crush
this peaceful movement like any number of other countries would have under less dire
circumstances.

Just remember 1989's Tiannemen Square.

------------------------------------------------

And Curiosity, your sentiments are valid. They just don't see it at all. They
behave as blind as those they condemn.

 

[Curiosity]

Thank you Jim

My sentiments lie with the families of the slain, the wounded, the traumatized, the families who wait and pray, the children who hope...... on all sides of the bloody mess.

The rest of us who sit comfortably weighing in with our opinions, blame and pontifications matter little in this yet another "event in bloodshed" in which mankind continues to participate.

It solves nothing.

Time rebuilds humanity, cities, buildings, even gardens. Wounds to the bodies and souls are nurtured for another day to bring to the forefront of memory, and there will be other events.... it is a guarantee.

 

[darkbeaver]

JimMoyers quote
"You don't see similar sentiments coming to the forefront from the peace crowd.
They really do care more about a negative: Bring the USA to its knees MORE THAN
they care about Iraq getting a SECOND CHANCE."


Bringing the USA to its knees is seen as positive by humanity. You should be thinking about a similar second chance for your own nation, I wonder how your judgement would change. You don't seem to have any empathy.:smile: