Pentagon Missile Theory dispelled

[gopher]

Aside from defectors, do you remember the other witnesses?


According to Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld it could not have been more obvious that there were WMD. Powell even presented fabricated photos to the UN. Afterwards, we learned that those were all total Bushshit propraganda.

 

[Said1]

Aside from defectors, do you remember the other witnesses?


According to Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld it could not have been more obvious that there were WMD. Powell even presented fabricated photos to the UN. Afterwards, we learned that those were all total Bushshit propraganda.

I know that, I'm talking actual people. No matter, I'm not trying to argue, and it's way off topic anyway.

 

[gopher]

Dozens killed on th eplane, dozens of witnesses, hundreds of family and friends, dozens in the control tower, hundreds of rescue workers, a missing airplane which equates to dozens of people in American Airlines, dozens of people at Boeing, body parts found at the Pentagon site equates to a little more than "several"


No pictures, no tapes, many witnesses who deny that there was a plane, control towers who still have not produced taped flight transcripts, no fuel trail, no damaged cars in the nearby parking lot, no collateral damage.

Hmmm.

Reminds me of the JFK assassination: everybody in the area said the bullets came from the grassy knoll. The government said it came from atop a building. Evidence today collaborates what the witnesses said at that time.

I'm betting that in a little while evidence will come forth to prove that there wasn't a jet that crashed into the Pentagon.

 

[gopher]

I'm talking actual people.

Not one actual person presented even a shred of evidence to prove that WMD crapola.

 

[I think not]

No pictures, no tapes, many witnesses who deny that there was a plane, control towers who still have not produced taped flight transcripts, no fuel trail, no damaged cars in the nearby parking lot, no collateral damage.

Find me a link with witnesses that say it was anything other than an airplane. There is a Pentagon tape. Control Towers have produced taped transcripts. The black boxes have been found. I have no idea why there would be a fuel trail unless they wanted to spray everyone to death. There were pole lights knocked down. And the parking lot was not on that side of the Pentagon.

But more importantly: If American Airlines Flight 77 didn't crash into the Pentagon, what did happen to the jetliner and all its passengers?

You may continue changing the topic now

 

[gopher]

One last point: it is the government that is in possession and control of all evidence. As with the JFK assassination, it can manipulate it at will to make it appear as if the government is telling the truth.

For you deluded pundits who believe that the government can do no wrong, just remember how all the JFK evidence and Gulf of Tonkin evidence were manipulated. Think over how so many people were fooled into believing the government lies only to have those lies dispelled after so much damage had been irreparably done.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Yes, but you are speculating. Do you have any evidence to refute the information I posted? Do you have any proof that a plane was flown over the Atlantic and shot down?

You want evidence that a plane was shot down? If this were to actually happen, how would anyone but the person that fired the missile know? It could have happened anywhere. Should I be scouring the bottom of the entire eastern seaboard for you then? I admit, there is no evidence, and even if this scenario occured, there would still be no evidence, unless the person that fired the missile came forward...I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening though...and even if he did, would you even believe him?

What evidence is there to support the official story? A hole in a building with little to no actual wreckage? Some spurious eyewitnesses that give contradictory testimony to that of other witnesses? FBI confiscating security camera footage from several businesses adjacent to the Pentagon, but releasing 5 frames of a blurry something slamming into the wall in a ball of fire...

None of it adds up, and I see you making no effort to reconcile these glaring inconsistencies that are being fed to you, and your energy seems to be more focused on denying the obvious and belittling those that would like to know what actually happened...

Incidentally, how many passengers' bodies were pulled out of the Pentagon rubble?

http://www.911dossier.co.uk/gen04.html

Apparently without the least fear of laying itself open to ridicule, the Defense Department declared that the jet engines, made out of tempered steel, had disintegrated under the shock of the impact - without damaging the façade. The aluminum of the fuselage is claimed to have combusted at more than 2,500° Celsius within the building and to have been transformed into gas, but the bodies of the passengers which it contained were so little burned that they were later identified from their finger prints.

Can you not see a problem with this?

Your analogy with Northwoods is amusing since the Defense Secretary and the President both rejected the pland and had the general "resign"

Yes, it would be amusing were it not for the fact that it was Bush and Rumsfeld, and not Kennedy and McNamara...

You've got to admit, that they are two entirely different breeds...

 

[I think not]

One last point: it is the government that is in possession and control of all evidence. As with the JFK assassination, it can manipulate it at will to make it appear as if the government is telling the truth.

For you deluded pundits who believe that the government can do no wrong, just remember how all the JFK evidence and Gulf of Tonkin evidence were manipulated. Think over how so many people were fooled into believing the government lies only to have those lies dispelled after so much damage had been irreparably done.

Yes, to some extent, with the exception of all the people I mentioned earlier. And the government would have to coerce hundreds if not thousands of people. And out of those hundreds or thousands of people there could very well be another "Deep Throat"

And you assume too much about "us" pundits believing everything the government tells us. It is you who cannot answer the simplest question, you are looking for something and providing only questions. Example of the kind of questions you ask:

Why did the attack occur so early in the morning and not later in the day when thousands more could of been killed?

 

[I think not]

You want evidence that a plane was shot down? If this were this were to actually happen, how would anyone but the person that fired the missile know? It could have happened anywhere. Should I be scouring the bottom of the entire eastern seaboard for you then? I admit, there is no evidence, and even if this scenario occured, there would still be no evidence, unless the person that fired the missile came forward...I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening though...and even if he did, would you even believe him?

No, I don't need you scouring the ocean. But since you are speculating I can't see how this all fits in seeking the truth

What evidence is there to support the official story? A hole in a building with little to no actual wreckage? Some spurious eyewitnesses that give contradictory testimony to that of other witnesses? FBI confiscating security camera footage from several businesses adjacent to the Pentagon, but releasing 5 frames of a blurry something slamming into the wall in a ball of fire...

Show me a news article that states FBI agents confiscated footage and I will rethink my arguments.

None of it adds up, and I see you making no effort to reconcile these glaring inconsistencies that are being fed to you, and your energy seems to be more focused on denying the obvious and belittling those that would like to know what actually happened...

The only thing that adds up is you not being able to tell me what proof you have as to what happened to the passengers and where is the missing plane. The only thing you do is feed your speculations with more theories and no evidence.

Incidentally, how many passengers' bodies were pulled out of the Pentagon rubble?

This many

Apparently without the least fear of laying itself open to ridicule, the Defense Department declared that the jet engines, made out of tempered steel, had disintegrated under the shock of the impact - without damaging the façade. The aluminum of the fuselage is claimed to have combusted at more than 2,500° Celsius within the building and to have been transformed into gas, but the bodies of the passengers which it contained were so little burned that they were later identified from their finger prints. Can you not see a problem with this?

Since you appear to be more scientifically inclined than I am, explain it to me.

Your analogy with Northwoods is amusing since the Defense Secretary and the President both rejected the pland and had the general "resign"

Yes, it would be amusing were it not for the fact that it was Bush and Rumsfeld, and not Kennedy and McNamara...

You've got to admit, that they are two entirely different breeds...

Yes, that I do admit. But I think that is what is driving your beliefs and you cannot make the break. And incidentally I think you of all posters know I have no love for Bush and his band of idiots

 

[gopher]

you are looking for something and providing only questions.

Up to that point, I will agree to a certain degree. As for that silly example that you give, I will not comment on it as it is far too infantile a suggestion.

The reason why I agree with the above part is that I do not have answers --- one must be in full of possession of evidence in order to make an informed opinion and I do not have that. But I know from my years of experience as a former government agent and student of history that the government is not to be trusted, especially when it is in possession of all evidence and can readily manipulate "facts". This is especialy so when the government has an agenda that it is seeking to promote. In the JFK assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin, and the criminally illegal invasion of Iraq, the government had such an agenda.

Consider Bushshit's speech last night --- how many times did that treasonous idiot repeatedly invoke 9/11 as a justification for his crimes against Iraq? You know damn well that there was no connection between 9/11 and Saddam as evidenced by the 9/11 Commission Report. And yet, that imperialistic moron continues to make this connection without any justification and no one in the controlled Orwellian news media makes any effort to correct him.

Bottom line is that, yes, I am posing questions. And if these questions had been imposed while Powell was making his lies about photos of non-existent WMD or as Congress was debating whether it should have given money for the Vietnam war, we could have been spared two wars and saved a great many lives. As a peace seeking citizen, it is my duty to impose such questions. If more did so, we would have peace, not manipulated or manufactured wars for the benefit of war profiteers.

 

[I think not]

Up to that point, I will agree to a certain degree. As for that silly example that you give, I will not comment on it as it is far too infantile a suggestion.

I would really appreciate it if you refrain from personal attacks, just because someone has a different opinion, makes them no less intelligent than yourself. Then again that and changing topics appears all that you have left.

The fact remains you cannot offer an alternate opinion as to where the missing jetliner is and where those passengers are. The government can manipulate the truth, but it cannot keep thousands of people quiet.

The reason why I agree with the above part is that I do not have answers --- one must be in full of possession of evidence in order to make an informed opinion and I do not have that. But I know from my years of experience as a former government agent and student of history that the government is not to be trusted, especially when it is in possession of all evidence and can readily manipulate "facts".

I think my signature bares witness how much I trust the government and since you are a newcomer to this board, and I highly doubt you have read my posts, don't assume I have any faith in any government.

Bottom line is that, yes, I am posing questions. And if these questions had been imposed while Powell was making his lies about photos of non-existent WMD or as Congress was debating whether it should have given money for the Vietnam war, we could have been spared two wars and saved a great many lives. As a peace seeking citizen, it is my duty to impose such questions. If more did so, we would have peace, not manipulated or manufactured wars for the benefit of war profiteers.

And try and stay on topic if you would.

 

[gopher]

"personal attack"

Utter nonsense. That's why I won't reply to it.

As for the illustrations that I used, they were relevant in that they show government deception. A tactic undoubtedly used in this Pentagon scenario and the many web sites on the subject bear that out.

 

[gopher]

excellent site on the subject:

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm


If anybody can disprove any of this, or prove that American vessels were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin, or that the moon is made of cheese, or that there are little green men on the planet Mars, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

You want evidence that a plane was shot down? If this were this were to actually happen, how would anyone but the person that fired the missile know? It could have happened anywhere. Should I be scouring the bottom of the entire eastern seaboard for you then? I admit, there is no evidence, and even if this scenario occured, there would still be no evidence, unless the person that fired the missile came forward...I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening though...and even if he did, would you even believe him?

No, I don't need you scouring the ocean. But since you are speculating I can't see how this all fits in seeking the truth

As it appears to me that the truth is being supressed, that's all we really have is speculation...what most likely occured...because the "official story' just doesn't fly...

What evidence is there to support the official story? A hole in a building with little to no actual wreckage? Some spurious eyewitnesses that give contradictory testimony to that of other witnesses? FBI confiscating security camera footage from several businesses adjacent to the Pentagon, but releasing 5 frames of a blurry something slamming into the wall in a ball of fire...

Show me a news article that states FBI agents confiscated footage and I will rethink my arguments.

News articles eh?

Would National Geographic Do?

Velasquez says the gas station's security cameras are close enough to the Pentagon to have recorded the moment of impact. "I've never seen what the pictures looked like," he said. "The FBI was here within minutes and took the film."

Incidentally, how many passengers' bodies were pulled out of the Pentagon rubble?

This many

Yes, but why weren't they rendered gaseous, as the aluminum of the fuselage reputedly was?

You are aware that the same military that has released that report, has made a lot of claims in the last few years that have been patently false...I find it difficult to put a lot of faith into what your military is telling me...but at the same time, it's rather difficult to debunk something when that's the only version out there, and no one else has access to the evidence...

...but from what we know, we can assume one of two things:

1. Either the aluminum of the fuselage did not reach the temperature necessary to transform it to a gaseous state, and therefore the victims bodies were not incinerated and vaporized so that the military was able to conduct a proper identification. In which case, why did the investigators make the false claim that the fuselage had been heated to a gaseous state, and where is the fuselage now?

or

2. The aluminum of the fuselage did reach temperatures necessary to transform it to a gaseous state, and the bodies within the fuselage would have been incinerated and vaporized. In which case, how was the military able to conduct a proper identification of the victims?

Apparently without the least fear of laying itself open to ridicule, the Defense Department declared that the jet engines, made out of tempered steel, had disintegrated under the shock of the impact - without damaging the façade. The aluminum of the fuselage is claimed to have combusted at more than 2,500° Celsius within the building and to have been transformed into gas, but the bodies of the passengers which it contained were so little burned that they were later identified from their finger prints. Can you not see a problem with this?

Since you appear to be more scientifically inclined than I am, explain it to me.

There is no rational explanation that I have read...if the aluminum of the fuselage was turned gaseous it would have taken sustained heat of 2467.0 degrees Celsius to make it boil. How long would the aluminum have had to boil to render the entire fuselage gaseous, as the 'experts' have contended had happened?

The bodies should have been vaporized and consequently, unidentifiable, but from the military report you linked to, obviously they were not...

Your analogy with Northwoods is amusing since the Defense Secretary and the President both rejected the pland and had the general "resign"

Yes, it would be amusing were it not for the fact that it was Bush and Rumsfeld, and not Kennedy and McNamara...

You've got to admit, that they are two entirely different breeds...

Yes, that I do admit. But I think that is what is driving your beliefs and you cannot make the break. And incidentally I think you of all posters know I have no love for Bush and his band of idiots

Yes I do know that...but at the same time, it seems you are stuck in a gridlock of implicit trust concerning the events of 911, that you are unable to break free of...

You know that Bush and his cronies have lied to you to get the American people on board to invade Iraq, and that they have given assent to countless attrocities...so I'm wondering why it is such a stretch for you to believe that they have lied to you about 911 as well...

Just to keep you guessing though...here's an interesting little factoid...

According to the Washington Post, the passengers of all 4 planes combined constituted only 27% of total seating capacity for those models of planes...something that to this day the airlines have not been able to explain...

 

[Vanni Fucci]

One last comment:

I touched upon this in my last post, but I think I should expand upon it...

The reason that "conspiracy theories" are difficult to prove is that the evidence to be able to prove the theory true or false is held in the hands of others...

It's not like the theory of relativity or some other intangible theory where the ability to prove it is possessed by all...

So don't be so hard on "conspiracy theorists" because it may be revealed sometime in the future, that they were bang on the money...

 

[no1important]

Re: RE: Pentagon Missile Theo

Doesn't the Pentagon have surveillance cameras? You would think they would have loads of them there and in parking lots and areas around the Pentagon.

So why have they not released any tapes from any cameras so we could see what really hit the Pentagon and put an end to this arguement? I am sure some camera caught something.

But since they have not, it has given birth to conspiracey theories.

Or maybe it was a missle and thats why they are not released. I dunno, but I do know the government (USA) is not telling the public the whole story.

I'm providing you with evidence, one Dr. Paul Ambrose existed and then he ceased to exist on September 11th. 2001, based on passengers list, friends and family, fellowship awards.

Prove he's alive and then we can talk about missile theories.

Sorry I do not know who he is? Can you please elaborate? Was he a friend of yours?

I am not saying a plane did not hit pentagon, I just find it funny with all the cameras around the pentagon no tapes have ever been released. And due to that it creates an aura of mystery, which leads to questions, and questions not being answered which leads to conspiracy thoeries.

If it was a plane like most people believe or know, show the tapes. It does not get any simpler than that.

 

[I think not]

excellent site on the subject:

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm


If anybody can disprove any of this, or prove that American vessels were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin, or that the moon is made of cheese, or that there are little green men on the planet Mars, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Yes, I have seen that website and many others. I have a basic questions we can all speculate about. Why would the government use planes for the WTC and a missile for the Pentagon? Would it serve any particular purpose other than a risk of being exposed?

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Pentagon Missile Theo

Doesn't the Pentagon have surveillance cameras? You would think they would have loads of them there and in parking lots and areas around the Pentagon.

So why have they not released any tapes from any cameras so we could see what really hit the Pentagon and put an end to this arguement? I am sure some camera caught something.

But since they have not, it has given birth to conspiracey theories.

Or maybe it was a missle and thats why they are not released. I dunno, but I do know the government (USA) is not telling the public the whole story.

I'm providing you with evidence, one Dr. Paul Ambrose existed and then he ceased to exist on September 11th. 2001, based on passengers list, friends and family, fellowship awards.

Prove he's alive and then we can talk about missile theories.

Sorry I do not know who he is? Can you please elaborate? Was he a friend of yours?

I am not saying a plane did not hit pentagon, I just find it funny with all the cameras around the pentagon no tapes have ever been released. And due to that it creates an aura of mystery, which leads to questions, and questions not being answered which leads to conspiracy thoeries.

If it was a plane like most people believe or know, show the tapes. It does not get any simpler than that.

If you're not denying it was a plane then I don't see where the argument is.

 

[I think not]

Yes I do know that...but at the same time, it seems you are stuck in a gridlock of implicit trust concerning the events of 911, that you are unable to break free of...

You know that Bush and his cronies have lied to you to get the American people on board to invade Iraq, and that they have given assent to countless attrocities...so I'm wondering why it is such a stretch for you to believe that they have lied to you about 911 as well...

Perhaps since I lived 9/11 up close and personal I have a hard time believing "theories", especially anything surrounding the WTC. I am sorry Vanni I have a hard time believing Thierry Meyssan’s theories of remote controlled airplanes hitting the WTC, empty planes at that. His theories that a missile hit the Pentagon. It raises even more suspicion to methat he is an activist with his own left-wing association called the “Voltaire Network" which has started the internet craze surrounding the events to further advertise his book. And I also feel that since I lost a personal friend that day, I think I have tried to find the truth, perhaps more than those not hit personally with it. Asking questions and providing no answers doen't make any sense to me.

You say someday, these "theories" may come out in the open. They never will, they never do.

 

[gopher]

I am not aware of anyone suggesting that a missile struck the WTC ( my former place of employment for MANY years). As for the Pentagon, it sure makes you wonder why there were no radio reports that indicated a plane was on its way to that vicinity and why no one was on the lookout for any such thing.

As "incredible" as the missile theory is, no one would have believed in 1965-1971 that the USA made up the story about the fabricated Gulf of Tonkin Incident. The book Truth is the First Casualty (sorry, don't remember the author at the moment) came out in 1969 and it was the first to say that the attack was a fake but few people believed it then. After many Americans and Viets died, finally the Pentagon Papers came out and revealed the full truth. Every American who died in Nam was murdered by his own government. The facts and the truth could not be more clear.

Therefore, contrary to all that anyone may want to believe, a fabricated attack upon Americans by their own government would not be unprecedented. History is eminently clear on that.