only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, maybe!
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Jay
You personalize your answer with no answer actually. That is what I was questioning.
I have lost more respect for women over this issue than any other lost of respect I can think of.
I understand losing respect - and for women - but I don't understand why the loss of respect occurs.
For women who argue for abortion as a solution;
For women who argue against abortion as a solution and carry a while for whatever the circumstances to birth;
Or some other reason I have not listed. There appears to be only two.
Or women who become militant over whichever side they choose to support?
Unless you lose respect for a women who has intercourse without some prevention measures considered by either the male or female...
If you would rather not answer, that is your choice of course because it is personal....there are also so many variables.....but I feel your reaction to this issue doesn't fit with your easy attitutude on other generalities.
That is why I asked my question.
Jay
You personalize your answer with no answer actually. That is what I was questioning.
I have lost more respect for women over this issue than any other lost of respect I can think of.
I understand losing respect - and for women - but I don't understand why the loss of respect occurs.
For women who argue for abortion as a solution;
For women who argue against abortion as a solution and carry a while for whatever the circumstances to birth;
Or some other reason I have not listed. There appears to be only two.
Or women who become militant over whichever side they choose to support?
Unless you lose respect for a women who has intercourse without some prevention measures considered by either the male or female...
If you would rather not answer, that is your choice of course because it is personal....there are also so many variables.....but I feel your reaction to this issue doesn't fit with your easy attitutude on other generalities.
That is why I asked my question.
Re: RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized,
I agree with legalizing abortions up to and including the age of 18. kid comes home with some stupid purple Emo haircut, or a Che Guevara t-shirt.... BAM!! Coat-hanger!!! :twisted:
Really though, in the case of rape, incest or a horribly sick child with no chance of living, I believe abortion should be allowed. For everyone else, grow up and take responsibility!
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I agree with legalizing abortions up to and including the age of 18. kid comes home with some stupid purple Emo haircut, or a Che Guevara t-shirt.... BAM!! Coat-hanger!!! :twisted:
Really though, in the case of rape, incest or a horribly sick child with no chance of living, I believe abortion should be allowed. For everyone else, grow up and take responsibility!
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Re: RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized,
That's interesting to me. I get frustrated with people about this issue, but I can't say it's affected my view of men or women in general.
My biggest frustration comes from the judgements and the pain that I see heaped onto women who had abortions by people who really don't know them at all. I've only ever seen two patients who used abortion rather than another form of birth control. I've never participated in early term therapeutic abortions (meaning the elective ones), though I've looked after those women afterwords. They were just like most women, doing what they thought was best in a bad situation and I can't judge them for that. I have participated in late term abortions and inductions (3 months-8 months) for fetal and maternal health issues and they are heartbreaking. Every single one of those babies were wanted by their mothers, unfortunately things don't always work. When I hear people rail against late term abortions, my immediate reaction is anger because the women I've seen weren't a bunch of sluts who just never used birth control and didn't get around to having an abortion earlier on in their pregnancies. I feel protective of them because I've seen how much they grieved. I know even a lot of pro-lifers would say "Oh, well I didn't mean those women", but the pain they've caused with their comments isn't erased with that.
Jay said:
That's interesting to me. I get frustrated with people about this issue, but I can't say it's affected my view of men or women in general.
My biggest frustration comes from the judgements and the pain that I see heaped onto women who had abortions by people who really don't know them at all. I've only ever seen two patients who used abortion rather than another form of birth control. I've never participated in early term therapeutic abortions (meaning the elective ones), though I've looked after those women afterwords. They were just like most women, doing what they thought was best in a bad situation and I can't judge them for that. I have participated in late term abortions and inductions (3 months-8 months) for fetal and maternal health issues and they are heartbreaking. Every single one of those babies were wanted by their mothers, unfortunately things don't always work. When I hear people rail against late term abortions, my immediate reaction is anger because the women I've seen weren't a bunch of sluts who just never used birth control and didn't get around to having an abortion earlier on in their pregnancies. I feel protective of them because I've seen how much they grieved. I know even a lot of pro-lifers would say "Oh, well I didn't mean those women", but the pain they've caused with their comments isn't erased with that.
RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
I'm pretty anti-abortion, but on principle, not for any particular issue. I think that if you screw up and get pregnant, you live with your mistake, end of story. Sure there's exceptions, but that's "generally" where I stand.
I'm pretty anti-abortion, but on principle, not for any particular issue. I think that if you screw up and get pregnant, you live with your mistake, end of story. Sure there's exceptions, but that's "generally" where I stand.
RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Now that's funny, Doryman!
Seriously, I usually try to stay out of this debate, because I am so divided myself.
I think strict anti-abortion laws are unenforceable, somewhat hypocritical, and incredibly divisive.
I think no abortion law (such as in Canada) is cowardly on the part of government, and completely morally wrong.
There should be some middle ground that allows abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, discourages the use of abortion as simple birth control, and bans abortion in late pregnancy except where the life of the mother is in danger.
That would be, in my eyes, the perfect compromise.
Now that's funny, Doryman!
Seriously, I usually try to stay out of this debate, because I am so divided myself.
I think strict anti-abortion laws are unenforceable, somewhat hypocritical, and incredibly divisive.
I think no abortion law (such as in Canada) is cowardly on the part of government, and completely morally wrong.
There should be some middle ground that allows abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, discourages the use of abortion as simple birth control, and bans abortion in late pregnancy except where the life of the mother is in danger.
That would be, in my eyes, the perfect compromise.
RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
I watched a report on this issue last night. I too am appalled at the very idea of this and until I saw the report I was spitting nails!
Because the US Supreme Court has skirted the issue for so many years - there has not been a serious challenge to Roe v. Wade in a very long time...the idea is that this will for the USSC to address it.
The lawmakers in Dakota are very clear that they know the first time the new legislation is challenged it will be struck down via Roe v. Wade as unconstitutional- at all the lower court levels - the result is that it will go to the Supreme Court and they will have to address it. The reality is the hard-core right-wingnuts in s. dak. are pro-lifers all the way. The truly do NOT want abortion legal there...this is just a slippery way of doing business.
I watched a report on this issue last night. I too am appalled at the very idea of this and until I saw the report I was spitting nails!
Because the US Supreme Court has skirted the issue for so many years - there has not been a serious challenge to Roe v. Wade in a very long time...the idea is that this will for the USSC to address it.
The lawmakers in Dakota are very clear that they know the first time the new legislation is challenged it will be struck down via Roe v. Wade as unconstitutional- at all the lower court levels - the result is that it will go to the Supreme Court and they will have to address it. The reality is the hard-core right-wingnuts in s. dak. are pro-lifers all the way. The truly do NOT want abortion legal there...this is just a slippery way of doing business.
Re: RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized,
I totally agree with you - later stage abortions should be (and are) almost impossible to get in Canada - unless a woman's health/life is at risk. However, they are readily available up to 20 weeks.
Colpy said:
I totally agree with you - later stage abortions should be (and are) almost impossible to get in Canada - unless a woman's health/life is at risk. However, they are readily available up to 20 weeks.
Re: RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized,
RESPONSE: That sounds like a solid, reasonable position. I would like the concept of people being held responsible for their own decisions. Such as viewing your 'abortion as simple birth control' as an elective surgery to be paid for by the individual (like having a small cyct removed). There is no place that I am aware, that provides for late-stage abortion for any other than life threatening relief.
Colpy said:
RESPONSE: That sounds like a solid, reasonable position. I would like the concept of people being held responsible for their own decisions. Such as viewing your 'abortion as simple birth control' as an elective surgery to be paid for by the individual (like having a small cyct removed). There is no place that I am aware, that provides for late-stage abortion for any other than life threatening relief.
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Tracy
I'm glad you wrote on this topic because of your work with newborns....but because your work is within a medical or hospital setting, you would see one side of the medical issue of abortion rather than the "preferential choice" issue some women make for various personal reasons.
It would seem those women who make it into the hospital setting have some real issues which would necessarily give you a clear picture of the reasons why the loss would be a choice.... but I wonder how someone who works with abortions only feels.
You write: I've only ever seen two patients who used abortion rather than another form of birth control.
There are thousands of them - whether they admit it or not. It is the life-blood of abortion clinics. And even more tragic...
There are still women who do self-abortions either from ingestion of remedies, or self-mutilation. It is not something one discusses and yet it goes on. Those are the people we never hear discussing their situations. Those strong enough to admit abortion are sure in their decision whether they made it themselves or it was made for them by medical people.
My question is why have the scientific community ignored contraception as a viable prevention method which is successful in most cases, rather than perfecting abortion itself, and even worse, rushing through male sexual enhancement drugs to a willing market with so little being done about prevention.
Even a temporary tubal ligation procedure would be better than an abortion. I have always advocated a reversible vasectomy in my musings but have made some good enemies out of the suggestion...still....a young man in his teens is capable of many impregnations during the course of one year, whereas a young girl can only get pregnant just less than one year at time.
We are such weird animals. And then we have all the religiosos preaching abstention! Lord save me from your misguided apostles.
Tracy
I'm glad you wrote on this topic because of your work with newborns....but because your work is within a medical or hospital setting, you would see one side of the medical issue of abortion rather than the "preferential choice" issue some women make for various personal reasons.
It would seem those women who make it into the hospital setting have some real issues which would necessarily give you a clear picture of the reasons why the loss would be a choice.... but I wonder how someone who works with abortions only feels.
You write: I've only ever seen two patients who used abortion rather than another form of birth control.
There are thousands of them - whether they admit it or not. It is the life-blood of abortion clinics. And even more tragic...
There are still women who do self-abortions either from ingestion of remedies, or self-mutilation. It is not something one discusses and yet it goes on. Those are the people we never hear discussing their situations. Those strong enough to admit abortion are sure in their decision whether they made it themselves or it was made for them by medical people.
My question is why have the scientific community ignored contraception as a viable prevention method which is successful in most cases, rather than perfecting abortion itself, and even worse, rushing through male sexual enhancement drugs to a willing market with so little being done about prevention.
Even a temporary tubal ligation procedure would be better than an abortion. I have always advocated a reversible vasectomy in my musings but have made some good enemies out of the suggestion...still....a young man in his teens is capable of many impregnations during the course of one year, whereas a young girl can only get pregnant just less than one year at time.
We are such weird animals. And then we have all the religiosos preaching abstention! Lord save me from your misguided apostles.
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Gunslinger wrote:
I'm pretty anti-abortion, but on principle, not for any particular issue. I think that if you screw up and get pregnant, you live with your mistake, end of story. Sure there's exceptions, but that's "generally" where I stand.
Why is it that men say "The Woman screwed up" what the male bares no responsibility? Are you assuming she got herself pregnant? No? If you impregnated a woman tell me what is your responsibility? Girls can you imagine if for a period of one month all males that have un-protected sex will get pregnant and will hypothetically have to carry said child what do you think the males response would be? My body, my choice!
Gunslinger wrote:
I'm pretty anti-abortion, but on principle, not for any particular issue. I think that if you screw up and get pregnant, you live with your mistake, end of story. Sure there's exceptions, but that's "generally" where I stand.
Why is it that men say "The Woman screwed up" what the male bares no responsibility? Are you assuming she got herself pregnant? No? If you impregnated a woman tell me what is your responsibility? Girls can you imagine if for a period of one month all males that have un-protected sex will get pregnant and will hypothetically have to carry said child what do you think the males response would be? My body, my choice!
RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
WC, I don't mean to say that women don't use abortions as birth control exactly. By definition, it is always birth control. I just mean that most of those women aren't using it as their primary method. Although I don't think science has failed us when it comes to developping birth control methods, none of them are 100% effective. I have a friend who has gotten pregnant twice on good birth control methods (depo and the pill). Condoms have as high as a 20% failure rate. Even the morning after pill (if you can get it) fails fairly often. I looked after twins born to a woman who had a tubal ligation (and those are EXTREMELY hard to get for young women).
WC, I don't mean to say that women don't use abortions as birth control exactly. By definition, it is always birth control. I just mean that most of those women aren't using it as their primary method. Although I don't think science has failed us when it comes to developping birth control methods, none of them are 100% effective. I have a friend who has gotten pregnant twice on good birth control methods (depo and the pill). Condoms have as high as a 20% failure rate. Even the morning after pill (if you can get it) fails fairly often. I looked after twins born to a woman who had a tubal ligation (and those are EXTREMELY hard to get for young women).
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Hi Tracy
I would imagine you see women who are in deep problems rather than those who routinely choose abortion as their method of ridding themselves of an accidental problem.
I believe science has failed females in the process of prevention and if they cannot do it pharmaceutically, they should try to do microscopic closing of the tubes on a temporary (or permanent basis). If they can operate on all areas of the body and brain with mildly invasive procedures, no doubt they could find a way to do perfect tubal ligation as well, but nobody attempts it.
I know shunts are placed into carotid arteries or behind the ear in cases of building up of cranial fluid and these are much more invasive than closing off ovarian tubes.
I guess it has too much Dr. Mengele and prevention of the population attached to it....
IF we are not happy with abortion, then why are those who decry it prepare for all the unwanted children, to make their lives productive and happy and healthy - to expect to be given all of the nuturing within a family could bring - and let the unborn live through to birth. I think Anna Battler touched on this earlier.
At least you get to see new life started - it must be very rewarding.
Hi Tracy
I would imagine you see women who are in deep problems rather than those who routinely choose abortion as their method of ridding themselves of an accidental problem.
I believe science has failed females in the process of prevention and if they cannot do it pharmaceutically, they should try to do microscopic closing of the tubes on a temporary (or permanent basis). If they can operate on all areas of the body and brain with mildly invasive procedures, no doubt they could find a way to do perfect tubal ligation as well, but nobody attempts it.
I know shunts are placed into carotid arteries or behind the ear in cases of building up of cranial fluid and these are much more invasive than closing off ovarian tubes.
I guess it has too much Dr. Mengele and prevention of the population attached to it....
IF we are not happy with abortion, then why are those who decry it prepare for all the unwanted children, to make their lives productive and happy and healthy - to expect to be given all of the nuturing within a family could bring - and let the unborn live through to birth. I think Anna Battler touched on this earlier.
At least you get to see new life started - it must be very rewarding.
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Making abortion illegal doesn't necessary lower abortions. Among the lowest rates in the world are the Netherlands where it is legal. Something like 1/5 to 1/4 the US rate. The reason. No big fear of teaching prevention and family planning. Free easy, confidential access to birth control. Brazil by contrast has about double the US rate and it is illegal.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7971545&dopt=Citation
The anti-abortion movement in the USA actually fights family planning.
The highest correllation to abortion appears to be fear of open discussion of sexual issues and access to birth control.
I suppose it is not odd that is mostly men that seem to be in favor of laws that control what women do with their bodies. The same men usually seem to be in favor of the laws preventing gay people from getting married. But the same men get irate if the law wouldn't let them have weapons to kill people with.
So I guess the formula is laws for interfering with other peoples lives when it doesn't affect them, but freedom to allow them weapons. The twisted republican value set seems universal to grumpy old men everywhere I guess.
Making abortion illegal doesn't necessary lower abortions. Among the lowest rates in the world are the Netherlands where it is legal. Something like 1/5 to 1/4 the US rate. The reason. No big fear of teaching prevention and family planning. Free easy, confidential access to birth control. Brazil by contrast has about double the US rate and it is illegal.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7971545&dopt=Citation
The anti-abortion movement in the USA actually fights family planning.
The highest correllation to abortion appears to be fear of open discussion of sexual issues and access to birth control.
I suppose it is not odd that is mostly men that seem to be in favor of laws that control what women do with their bodies. The same men usually seem to be in favor of the laws preventing gay people from getting married. But the same men get irate if the law wouldn't let them have weapons to kill people with.
So I guess the formula is laws for interfering with other peoples lives when it doesn't affect them, but freedom to allow them weapons. The twisted republican value set seems universal to grumpy old men everywhere I guess.
RE: only if your christia
One only has to look at the Serb /Croat war (ethnic cleansing) in the former Yugoslavia to understand the necessity for the mother to have a choice.
the ethnic cleansing went so far, in that serbs were raping croatian women multiple times, until they became pregnant, held them in captivity until they could not safely medically abort the foetus, which left 2 choices. have the child or suicide. Now...
You tell me who has the right to decide what a woman does with her body.
Noone except for the woman herself.
Regardless of religious or moral convictions, a woman has the right to choose. The singular exception to this could only be those who are in a state of mental illness, and cannot make a decision for themselves.
...and before we start to put medical cases in 'mental illness consideration' boxes, trauma from rape does not qualify as a mental illness, as the woman still has the right to terminate or not, as she sees fit.
One cannot make a decision for all. Men who have issues with women using abortion as birth control should lobby for a regulatory statute, restricting the drugs or procedures to physicians, subject to their qualified medical opinion and patient confidentiality.
or if you're so stuck in your redneck corner of the woods, take your loaded shotgun, place it in your mouth, and stick your toe on the trigger.
One only has to look at the Serb /Croat war (ethnic cleansing) in the former Yugoslavia to understand the necessity for the mother to have a choice.
the ethnic cleansing went so far, in that serbs were raping croatian women multiple times, until they became pregnant, held them in captivity until they could not safely medically abort the foetus, which left 2 choices. have the child or suicide. Now...
You tell me who has the right to decide what a woman does with her body.
Noone except for the woman herself.
Regardless of religious or moral convictions, a woman has the right to choose. The singular exception to this could only be those who are in a state of mental illness, and cannot make a decision for themselves.
...and before we start to put medical cases in 'mental illness consideration' boxes, trauma from rape does not qualify as a mental illness, as the woman still has the right to terminate or not, as she sees fit.
One cannot make a decision for all. Men who have issues with women using abortion as birth control should lobby for a regulatory statute, restricting the drugs or procedures to physicians, subject to their qualified medical opinion and patient confidentiality.
or if you're so stuck in your redneck corner of the woods, take your loaded shotgun, place it in your mouth, and stick your toe on the trigger.
RE: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Hi WC,
I do love my work, even when it's not happy. I started out on a postpartum-gynecology unit and cared for a fair number of women after elective abortions. It wasn't until I went into labor and delivery that I started looking after women during their late term abortions and after them. I can't describe how protective I feel about those women and their families which is why my knee jerk reaction is to defend them by explaining what their experiences are really like.... it's just cause I think if people really understood what it was, they wouldn't judge them so harshly and cause them more pain.
OT, but tubals are already fairly easy to do and can be reversed. Tying off a falopian tube isn't brain surgery. BUT, try finding a doctor who will give you one if you are younger than 30 and/or don't have any kids. They'll do 5 abortions on you rather than one ligation. No doc is going to risk the lawsuit that is sure to follow if a young woman says she wanted a reversible tubal ligation and was unable to have children after it was reversed. I saw this working L&D a lot. Many women who were undergoing c-sections wanted to have their tubes tied at the same time and many doctors refused to do it. Add that to the cost of the procedure and it's never going to be something that will be used on a wide basis. At this point a lot of women don't even have access to the easy forms of birth control, especially young women and those in smaller towns. More and more pharmacists won't even dispense the pill. Also, the cost can be prohibitive for some women when they have to pay for an office visit/exam and the prescription (my last office visit was almost $200, that's a lot for a student or a woman working a low paying job). Most women in the US don't live next to a Planned Parenthood where they can access cheap contraception. I wholeheartedly agree with reducing abortions, I just wish we would do it by finally getting over the taboos we have about sexuality in our society and being honest. We seem to be forever stuck in this slut/virgin way of seeing things and our sexual education reflects it. I can't tell you how many of my adult women friends have asked me questions I think they should have known or done things they shouldn't have because they were too shy to object. Many women are incredibly ignorant about their own bodies and sexuality because no one ever took the time to educate them growing up.
Hi WC,
I do love my work, even when it's not happy. I started out on a postpartum-gynecology unit and cared for a fair number of women after elective abortions. It wasn't until I went into labor and delivery that I started looking after women during their late term abortions and after them. I can't describe how protective I feel about those women and their families which is why my knee jerk reaction is to defend them by explaining what their experiences are really like.... it's just cause I think if people really understood what it was, they wouldn't judge them so harshly and cause them more pain.
OT, but tubals are already fairly easy to do and can be reversed. Tying off a falopian tube isn't brain surgery. BUT, try finding a doctor who will give you one if you are younger than 30 and/or don't have any kids. They'll do 5 abortions on you rather than one ligation. No doc is going to risk the lawsuit that is sure to follow if a young woman says she wanted a reversible tubal ligation and was unable to have children after it was reversed. I saw this working L&D a lot. Many women who were undergoing c-sections wanted to have their tubes tied at the same time and many doctors refused to do it. Add that to the cost of the procedure and it's never going to be something that will be used on a wide basis. At this point a lot of women don't even have access to the easy forms of birth control, especially young women and those in smaller towns. More and more pharmacists won't even dispense the pill. Also, the cost can be prohibitive for some women when they have to pay for an office visit/exam and the prescription (my last office visit was almost $200, that's a lot for a student or a woman working a low paying job). Most women in the US don't live next to a Planned Parenthood where they can access cheap contraception. I wholeheartedly agree with reducing abortions, I just wish we would do it by finally getting over the taboos we have about sexuality in our society and being honest. We seem to be forever stuck in this slut/virgin way of seeing things and our sexual education reflects it. I can't tell you how many of my adult women friends have asked me questions I think they should have known or done things they shouldn't have because they were too shy to object. Many women are incredibly ignorant about their own bodies and sexuality because no one ever took the time to educate them growing up.
Re: only if your christian,virgin,raped & sodomized, may
Tracy
I can't do justice to your lovely post right now because I was just about to sign off when I saw it.
If tubal ligation isn't the answer - then perhaps harvesting eggs before the libation will make the feel good doctors better about their liability insurance.
I envy you your job right now but I know there is always a down side to medicine and you probably bring so much relief and hope to the people you attend and care for. Still being in on seeing new life start must enrich you each day.
I'll take more time to read everything later....I think there has to be a better way and for all of our inventions and advances in science..... we still can't seem to find a solution which could work for everyone - even God ....
That was a lovely post....later....WC
Tracy
I can't do justice to your lovely post right now because I was just about to sign off when I saw it.
If tubal ligation isn't the answer - then perhaps harvesting eggs before the libation will make the feel good doctors better about their liability insurance.
I envy you your job right now but I know there is always a down side to medicine and you probably bring so much relief and hope to the people you attend and care for. Still being in on seeing new life start must enrich you each day.
I'll take more time to read everything later....I think there has to be a better way and for all of our inventions and advances in science..... we still can't seem to find a solution which could work for everyone - even God ....
That was a lovely post....later....WC