Ok, Here's A Freedom of Expression Situation For You All

captain morgan

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A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Ya, "raw" kind of opens the door doesn't it?

The individual definitions of 'raw' can vary wildly.

Someone could give you professional advice to start a business with the guidance of" 'Anything you want that makes money'... But that guidance is still subject to the laws of the land so suing the adviser because your 'business' was distribution of meth and the adviser didn't explicitly state that it had to be a legal activity, will be a heavy uphill battle for the plaintiff.
 

Sal

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I'm no expert on the subject but I'd say he can write whatever the hell he chooses as long as he doesn't identify anyone by name or any characteristic which leaves no doubt.
but he used her name...directly
 

gerryh

Time Out
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well it says essay

Corlett’s attorney, Alari Adams described the essay as “a whimsical exaggeration of his attraction” to his instructor, notes the Sun-Times.

and if it were I would have zero problem with it...but he prefaced it.


A man suspended from a Detroit-area university after writing about his attraction to teachers in a class journal sued the school Friday for $2.2 million and four lost credits, claiming his free-speech rights were violated.

College student sues; suspended over
 

Sal

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He doesn't have a leg to stand on!
that's what I think too. I thought he was fine until I read the preface. I do get that he was likely emotionally traumatized but as soon as it left the realm of fantasy, he crossed the line.

And someone said it's not like an 18 year old, as if his 57 years gave him license and meant he wasn't a perv so excused him. For me, they make him seem creepier. What 57 year old man writes that kind of stuff to a young college professor. He has boundary problems.
 

JLM

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that's what I think too. I thought he was fine until I read the preface. I do get that he was likely emotionally traumatized but as soon as it left the realm of fantasy, he crossed the line.

And someone said it's not like an 18 year old, as if his 57 years gave him license and meant he wasn't a perv so excused him. For me, they make him seem creepier. What 57 year old man writes that kind of stuff to a young college professor. He has boundary problems.
The guy is a nutcase!
 

Goober

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What 57 year old man writes that kind of stuff to a young college professor. He has boundary problems.

This guy. And both reports I have read state essay not journal.
Gerry's link states Journal. Regardless the prof screwed the pooch. Did not set parameters. Stated raw and got raw. The student, regardless of age was punished for submitting it raw.


 

PoliticalNick

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that's what I think too. I thought he was fine until I read the preface. I do get that he was likely emotionally traumatized but as soon as it left the realm of fantasy, he crossed the line.

And someone said it's not like an 18 year old, as if his 57 years gave him license and meant he wasn't a perv so excused him. For me, they make him seem creepier. What 57 year old man writes that kind of stuff to a young college professor. He has boundary problems.

Just where do you make the determination it was not fictional. Whether it be a journal or an essay both can be entirely fictional works. The point is it was a writing class and the boundaries set by the teacher were....
Mitzelfeld assured him no topics were restricted in the free-writing assignment and that she wanted "the raw stuff,"
'Hot for Teacher' essayist sues Oakland University for $2.2 million | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

As to the essay vs journal question I guess it depends which source you read but my take is it was a journal and he wrote an essay within it.

DETROIT — A man suspended from a Detroit-area university after writing about his attraction to teachers in a class journal sued the school Friday for $2.2 million and four lost credits, claiming his free-speech rights were violated.

Joseph Corlett, 57, a home builder who enrolled in college because of the weak economy, said he was an A-student in a writing class at Oakland University in Rochester until he submitted a journal in 2011 titled “Hot For Teacher,” the name of a song by the rock band Van Halen.

Corlett compared his instructor to Ginger, the attractive starlet on the 1960s TV show “Gilligan’s Island.” He feared being distracted and said, “I’ll never learn a thing.” He said another teacher who was pregnant was “hot, and not just from baking the bun in her oven.”

“I’ve had a few worries lately, the first that Lynn Anne, my wife, would read this. But now I don’t care. I suppose my fear is a good sign that I’m writing honestly,” Corlett wrote in journal pages that were attached to his lawsuit in Detroit federal court.

The lawsuit said the “entry was a whimsical exaggeration of his attraction” toward his English 380 teacher.

But Oakland officials said his assignment violated a policy against intimidation or harassment and last year barred him from taking classes for three terms, through winter 2013. The university said he must undergo counseling if he wants to return as a student.

Corlett, who now lives in Sarasota, Fla., said there were no restrictions on his journal assignment in English 380. The lawsuit states that the university’s interpretation of its policy “has a chilling effect on Corlett’s right to freely and openly engage in discussions of his theories, ideas, and beliefs.”

A message seeking comment was left with an Oakland spokesman.

Attorney Alari Adams said Corlett is seeking $2.2 million for mental anguish and the embarrassment of being kicked out of school.
College student sues; suspended over
 

Sal

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Just where do you make the determination it was not fictional. Whether it be a journal or an essay both can be entirely fictional works. The point is it was a writing class and the boundaries set by the teacher were....

'Hot for Teacher' essayist sues Oakland University for $2.2 million | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

As to the essay vs journal question I guess it depends which source you read but my take is it was a journal and he wrote an essay within it.


College student sues; suspended over
Read the preface that you posted. He used her name, three times. He speaks of them possibly being friends on Facebook in the future. He tells her he has been drinking. That is before he writes his essay. How are you missing this?

When you wrote papers in university you know the guidelines they set. You do not use your professors name in ANY essays for any reason EVER. It is a serious breach and universities take this stuff seriously. Either that or the guy is a complete idiot. What would possibly possess a 57 year old man to behave in such an inappropriate way?

How can you not see that as completely inappropriate? It doesn't matter if this is a journal or an essay...it was an assignment. It is a university course not a high school locker room "hey boys look at her".

We don't even know the boundaries the professor set...she said, he said. The article is written from the student's perspective who I might add I was supporting until I read his blubbering Dear Teacher letter that he wrote after drinking a half a bottle of wine.
 

Goober

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Read the preface that you posted. He used her name, three times. He speaks of them possibly being friends on Facebook in the future. He tells her he has been drinking. That is before he writes his essay. How are you missing this?

When you wrote papers in university you know the guidelines they set. You do not use your professors name in ANY essays for any reason EVER. It is a serious breach and universities take this stuff seriously. Either that or the guy is a complete idiot. What would possibly possess a 57 year old man to behave in such an inappropriate way?

How can you not see that as completely inappropriate? It doesn't matter if this is a journal or an essay...it was an assignment. It is a university course not a high school locker room "hey boys look at her".

We don't even know the boundaries the professor set...she said, he said. The article is written from the student's perspective who I might add I was supporting until I read his blubbering Dear Teacher letter that he wrote after drinking a half a bottle of wine.

Student have submitted essay- etc while drunk or high as a kite. The Prof set no boundaries, no parameters.
Write what you feel. He did.
 

JLM

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Student have submitted essay- etc while drunk or high as a kite. The Prof set no boundaries, no parameters.
Write what you feel. He did.

I'm not sure there has to be rules set down for most people to adhere to common sense. I think one good rule of thumb is don't write something you wouldn't say and don't hurt anyone's feelings or put them in a bad light, unless that is what you intend to do.
 

PoliticalNick

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Read the preface that you posted. He used her name, three times. He speaks of them possibly being friends on Facebook in the future. He tells her he has been drinking. That is before he writes his essay. How are you missing this?
I did read it...a couple of times (poor penmanship on his part required that). There is nothing untoward or offensive at all in it. He addresses her as Mrs _______ stating he is more comfortable with the formal address, then suggests that if they became facebook friends after the course is complete he could call her by her first name or a version of it. Further on he says "I'm paying you to kick my *** into becoming a better writer" and then suggests that "As long as we view our teacher/student relationship as patient/doctor I think we'll be fine". Near the end he remarks about a 'no page tear-out policy' for the journal so she can 'see everything he writes'.

Now to me that doesn't sound like someone who is stalking her or coming on to her, it sounds like a serious student who wants to get feedback & graded upon his actual writings and not on any watered-down, self-censored material. Add in the fact that he allegedly writes about other female teachers and I would say it is far from personal in any way.
When you wrote papers in university you know the guidelines they set. You do not use your professors name in ANY essays for any reason EVER.
I didn't get that memo at University.
What would possibly possess a 57 year old man to behave in such an inappropriate way?
I would say his desire to have his actual, unedited, uncensored writings graded and get feedback in order to advance his skills.
How can you not see that as completely inappropriate?
She asked for 'raw' uncensored material, that's what she got. It was quite appropriate.
It doesn't matter if this is a journal or an essay...it was an assignment.
And according to the article his prior assignments with sexual themes had received 'A's, why should he think this would be any different.
It is a university course....
Exactly, where everyone is supposed to be adult and open to many adult themed topics.

We don't even know the boundaries the professor set...she said, he said. The article is written from the student's perspective who I might add I was supporting until I read his blubbering Dear Teacher letter that he wrote after drinking a half a bottle of wine.
You obviously are easily offended and prone to jump to conclusions of nefarious nature if you think that 'dear teacher' letter (as you call it) is anything other than him asking her to not take his writing personally but instead professionally and be totally honest in her assessment of his skills and abilities.
 

damngrumpy

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This thing has more that one layer to it for sure. She said raw, and she got raw, True.
However if he had kept it an essay and a mater of writing an article in that context I
would agree he is being punished excessively.
The other side of this coin is the aspect where he make it personal in the form of the
facebook remarks. There he makes personal presumptions and that sometimes has
other problems attached to it. People make little feeler comments like that on the road
to becoming a stalker, and that becomes a safety red flag in the eyes of some and in
this case the institution.
No I am not jumping to the conclusion this guy is a stalker far from it, but the context of
making the essay personal, triggered a red flag response.
What would happen if this went further than it should and the institution was sued by her
family for not being concerned? This kind of creates a jagged edged sword situation.
It should also be remembered, America is a litigation region in and of itself. These people
don't settle tings like rational adults, they call their lawyer.
I suppose we will have to wait to see what the intent was in the facebook comment, and
how much weight is given to the level of concern. This case could also have serious
implications for what is and is not acceptable in society.
 

JLM

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This thing has more that one layer to it for sure. She said raw, and she got raw, True.
However if he had kept it an essay and a mater of writing an article in that context I
would agree he is being punished excessively.
The other side of this coin is the aspect where he make it personal in the form of the
facebook remarks. There he makes personal presumptions and that sometimes has
other problems attached to it. People make little feeler comments like that on the road
to becoming a stalker, and that becomes a safety red flag in the eyes of some and in
this case the institution.
No I am not jumping to the conclusion this guy is a stalker far from it, but the context of
making the essay personal, triggered a red flag response.
What would happen if this went further than it should and the institution was sued by her
family for not being concerned? This kind of creates a jagged edged sword situation.
It should also be remembered, America is a litigation region in and of itself. These people
don't settle tings like rational adults, they call their lawyer.
I suppose we will have to wait to see what the intent was in the facebook comment, and
how much weight is given to the level of concern. This case could also have serious
implications for what is and is not acceptable in society.

Not to mention the guy is an idiot.-:)
 

Tecumsehsbones

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This represents amazing progress in freedom of speech. In half a century, two generations, we've gone from folks being beaten to death by the cops for suggesting that non-whites, women, gays, the disabled, & c. had rights to some butthurt white guy whinging about how being suspended for sexually harassing his instructor is JUST AS BAD AS HITLER!

When free speech disputes become so trivial, the battle is pretty much won.
 

Nuggler

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Feb 27, 2006
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;-) The guy probably saw it coming, and is now looking forward to collecting a bunch of cash, maybe.. Nice position to be in.

Raw was requested. Raw was served up. Iffy if he crossed the line (probably). Too bad if he did, as he would now lose the court case ----and the money.

Neat trick. Stick handle your way into being a victim, then sue. Wish I'd thought of it.
 

The Old Medic

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He does have the Freedom to say whatever he wishes to say. The Constitution of the United States of American does not however guarantee that there will be no sanctions for exercising that right.

The Constitution only guarantees that the United States Government can not stop you from an expression. It says nothing about the possibility of consequences as a result of exercising that right.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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It's a close case. Generally the First Amendment has been construed to mean you cannot be punished for the content of your speech. Exceptions are obscenity, "fighting words," defamation, and certain types of speech that rise to the level of action, such as intimidation or harassment, which appears to be what the college considered this.