New Yorker's satirical Obama cover triggers uproar
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
No, the Soviets did that number on the Germans, as more were lost on that front then any on the Western front.... the US just jumped in at the right time. If Hitler didn't get more stupid as he did and kept the cease fire with the USSR, chances are things would have been a bit more difficult and the outcome could have been very different.
With the Soviet's superior tank designs with tanks such as the T34 and IS2, not to mention their numbers of fresh troops and their lovely winter..... a very big chunk of the German army was flattened.... not to mention it was the soviets who captured the Reichstag and ending Germany's involvement in WWII.
And when it comes to Japan, that was already over before it began by a number of mistakes on their end of things, and the war would have been over much more sooner then it was, but the US wanted to go out and seek revenge as it always does, and wouldn't accept anything less then complete surrender, they didn't.... then the US nukes a bunch of their civilians until they did.
And the difference between the Japs and the US, was that the Japs targeted military related targets such as Pearl Harbour and other naval bases, while the US microwaved two cities full of unarmed civilians..... and somehow that makes them the heros of WWII?
Oh yeah, I forgot.... Military Related Targets is subjective and I suppose one could widdle away an eventual justification for killing those civilians, like many ammo and vehicle factories were in those cities.
..... well they're in every city.... that's what makes them cities to begin with... jobs, that are in demand, that bring people together in one area for easy work travel.
It'd be no more different then an enemy nuking all of Detroit, rather then just bombing the factories and lessening the civilian casualties.... giving people a chance at least.
No, sorry, I don't see much I should be thankful for the US for.... besides their bragging of what they did during WWII over other nations, I don't see much of a big difference.... and once again, if anybody turned the tides in WWII, it was the Soviets.
Ha ha.... yeah, they protect us alright.... by trying to sell out all our defence programs, shutting down our development companies.... remember Avro? The US and the concept of their protection is what screwed up our military and made them the joke they used to be for the last number of decades.
And considdering the friendly fire incidences, their incompetence on protecting civlian life and air striking the hell out of everything..... I sure as hell don't want or need their help. If I need help from the military, I'll join.
Every city and every country does the same things.... We send our water bombers down to California every year.... what's the point?
Which is taking a lovely nose dive into the red line.
By all means, keep going.
Sheeesh.
From one extreme to another.
Meet the new boss, just like the old boss...
Or ... meet the new myths, just like the old myths....
We go from rejecting the over-playing of America's part in WWII to the complete under-playing of America's part in WWII.
Go figure.
You see this often. Some one finds that some story has been overplayed and seeing this they go to the extreme and think all of it was a pack of lies. It's a very typical reaction.
From one extreme to another.
Meet the new boss, just like the old boss...
Or ... meet the new myths, just like the old myths....
We go from rejecting the over-playing of America's part in WWII to the complete under-playing of America's part in WWII.
Go figure.
You see this often. Some one finds that some story has been overplayed and seeing this they go to the extreme and think all of it was a pack of lies. It's a very typical reaction.
By all means.... point to where I am false about the Soviet's involvement in WWII and their level of contribution compared to any other allied nation, including the US.... including Canada.
In fact, show me where I am lying in anything in which I posted above.... by all means.... I am waiting.
In: Canada in WW2
[Edit]
Answer
I don't know much. I do know that Canada gave out many handy supplies. Canada had a strong air force and good pilots. Also, they were the only ones to achieve all their objectives on D-Day and it was the Canadians who liberated Holland. Canadians also helped medically with the Red Cross.
Answer
I am sitting in an internet cafe in Sunny Edinburgh and not at home with my books so this answer will lack detail. Canada,along with the rest of the British Empire and Commonwealth made a huge contribution to world war 11. World war 22 started on 1st September 1939 for the poles whwn Germany invaded from the west. Britain and France declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939. Although they did not have to do so Canada,Australia and New Zeland declared war on Germany at about the same time. I have a war time propaganda booklet about Canada's contribution to the war effort Even allowing for the context of the information it makes amazing reading. Canada sent troops and sailors and airmen to Britain. It produced ships and guns and tanks and planes nd in the process created an industrial economy that had not existed before the war. Canada also leant Britain millions of dollars in financial aid and in 1945 said its ok you don't have to pay it back. (The Americans did not do this they still wanted to be paid) So Canada made a huge contribution to the war and in turn was changed by it. Canada's relations with America already close became even closer in the wartime period and after the war British influence in Canada was reduced. Many British people met Canadian troops during the war and were impressed by the people and many Brits went to Canada after the war.
Answer
IN 1939, the population of Canada was about 12 million people. If you divide that in half, it gives about 6 million males. Subtract those who were too young or too old to serve, and you have about 3 million males of military service age.
By the end of the second world war, Canada had ONE MILLION, ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND MEN IN UNIFORM. That is one out of every three adult males.
BY far, Canada's greatest contribution to the winning of WW2 was the Commonwealth Air Training Plan, which trained 135,000 pilots and aircrew, from 22 different countries, in Canada.
Canada built over 300 airfields and 65 training schools in less than one year, and provided the instructors and ground crews to keep thousands of planes in the air. We also fed and clothed and housed and entertained those thousands of men, and did it at our expense. We also built thousands of aircraft for the CATP and produced the fuel and oil needed, as well as the training manuals and course books and air charts, and even the asphalt and concrete for the runways.
After Canada had manufactured enough small arms to equip it's own army, we started sending rifles, pistols and machine guns to Britain. At the end of WW2, 60 percent of the British Army was armed with Canadian made weapons. We also provided over a million Lee Enfield rifles to the Nationalist Chinese Army and 300,000 Browning 9mm semi-auto pistols to the Australians and the New Zealanders.
The largest class of naval vessel ever made was the Canadian Corvette escort ship, with 237 in total being made during WW2. From the beginning of the war, the Royal Canadian Navy was the chief escort force in the western Atlantic Ocean. By the end of the war, the RCN was the acknowledged leader in anti-submarine warfare, with the most U-baots sunk.
Remember this fact.........Every American and Canadian soldier who fought in Europe got there by ship convoy, nobody flew over the Atlantic, except bomber crews going to the war. The Battle of the Atlantic was the longest and most crucial of WW2. Without control of the ocean, D Day would not have been possible, at all.
Canada was able to fight in two major campaigns at the same time. Where ?
From July 1943, with the invasion of Sicily, Canada's First Infantry Division along with it's auxiliary units of armor, artillery and support, were involved in the Italian fighting. Fourteen months later, after the liberation of Rome, the D-day Dodgers of the 1CanInfDiv were told that, for all their sins, they would now be going to Northern France, to join 2ndCanInfDiv, and 5th Can Armoured in the fight to capture the Belgian port city of Antwerp.
Of course, 2nd Div and 5th Armoured had landed at Normandy, on Juno beach, on June 6th, and now the entire Canadian Corps, over 200 thousand men was going to be concentrated on a massive front. The Falsie gap, the battle for the airport at Tirquet, the Breskins Pocket, Walchern Island, the Netherlands, the Hochwald Forest, the final 40 days, are all ahead of them.
The RCAF began the war with 5 squadrons of outdated planes, and about 3,000 men. By the end of the war, it is the third largest of the Allied air forces,with over 133,000 men, and fully 60 percent of RAF bomber command is made up of Canadians. Number six group, Bomber Command are all Canadian crews, and in Fighter Command, more than half of the Squadron Leaders are Canadians. There are 44 RCAF fighter squadrons, as well as 15 in Maritime Command flying the Canadian built Canso amphibian.
Inventive, combative, irreverant, funny and tough, that was the Canadians in WW2. From Motor Torpedo Boats in the channel at night, to the jungles of Borneo, or the mountains of Yugoslavia, fighting with Tito's army, they were everywhere, and we left our dead in cemmetaries in 74 nations, in small places that will forever be considered a part of Canada.
Answer
As a member of the allies, Canada declared war on Germany within days of the invasion of Poland. Unlike World War I, however, Canadian units remained more independent of British command, and they played an important role in Allied campaigns in Western Europe. Canadian forces contributed heavily in the air raids against Germany, the Battle of Britain the Italian campaign and the Battle of Normandy, as well as the campaigns in North West Europe. From 1941, Canadian forces also participated in the defense of British territories against Japanese forces, especially Hong Kong. About one million Canadians served during WWII.
The Canadian Home front also played a vital role in producing weapons, armor and many other vital war machines in pushing back the Germans.
Canada�s first major action was the raid on the French beach of Dieppe the task force included 5000 Canadian troops which stormed the beach head.
Although the mission was a failure the allies got a first view of German defenses on the French coast, and this information would later be used for operation OVERLORD the June 1944 invasion of France.
Before operation OVERLORD could take place, the allies needed to �soften� up German defensive positions and key targets such as war factories. RCAF bomber units flew nightly raids on German cities and factories to reduce the German ability to produce war materials and weapons
Lying? No......
Mistaken? Not in the human sacrifices made by the USSR.
Not fully aware? Yes.
Sorry about above figures, thought they would come out in a neat chart.....btw, this doesn't count in all the material "lent" to Great Britain, Canada, Australia, etc etc
US war production in comparison.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
US personel....
13 million under arms
over 400,000 killed. (slightly less per capita than Canada's contribution)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_US_soldiers_died_in_World_War_2
AND US Material supplied to the USSR
BIG TIME
US deliveries to USSR
Warsaw 1945: Willys jeep used by Polish Army as part of US Lend-Lease program.
American deliveries to the Soviet Union can be divided into the following phases:
- "pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941 (paid for in gold)
- first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941)
- second protocol period from 1 July 1942 to 30 June 1943 (signed 6 October 1942)
- third protocol period from 1 July 1943 to 30 June 1944 (signed 19 October 1943)
- fourth protocol period from 1 July 1944, (signed 17 April 1945), formally ended 12 May 1945 but deliveries continued for the duration of the war with Japan (which the Soviet Union entered on the 8 August 1945) under the "Milepost" agreement until 2 September 1945 when Japan capitulated. On 20 September 1945 all Lend-Lease to Russia was terminated.
Aircraft14,795Tanks7,056Jeeps51,503Trucks375,883Motorcycles35,170Tractors8,071Guns8,218Machine guns131,633Explosives345,735 tonsBuilding equipment valued$10,910,000Railroad freight cars11,155Locomotives1,981Cargo ships90Submarine hunters105Torpedo boats197Ship engines7,784Food supplies4,478,000 tonsMachines and equipment$1,078,965,000Non-ferrous metals802,000 tonsPetroleum products2,670,000 tonsChemicals842,000 tonsCotton106,893,000 tonsLeather49,860 tonsTires3,786,000Army boots15,417,001 pairs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
Did the USA win the war? Nope.
Could we have won it without them? Only maybe, nobody knows.
We go from rejecting the over-playing of America's part in WWII to the complete under-playing of America's part in WWII.
This is more about emphasis than disputing some "facts", although some of those facts are misleading, such as the comment "With the Soviet's superior tank designs with tanks such as the T34 and IS2"
I agree the USSR took the major brunt of it.
Reviewed by Michael Parrish
By Albert L. Weeks
Lexington Books, New York, 2004
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A wartime cartoon in The New Yorker shows the docks of Murmansk covered with off-loaded containers and a Soviet official having trouble finding the word "spam" in the dictionary. Spam was one of the many food items sent to the former Soviet Union by the United States under the Lend-Lease Program first suggested by Winston Churchill, to which the United States contributed the major portion. The subject has been previously covered by such books as Hubert van Tuyll’s Feeding the Bear (1989), but the present well-written text has the advantage of access to Russian sources, which were put to good use by Albert Weeks. The author makes a clear case that the program was a major factor in the survival of the Soviet Union and the victory over Nazism. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] In two particular areas the help was indispensable. With major agricultural regions of the Soviet Union under enemy occupation, and the unsatisfactory system of distribution and transportation, to say nothing of mismanagement, the Soviet state had more than a nodding acquaintance with famine. Without Western aid, during the war the Soviet population would have been in danger of sharing the fate of those trapped in Leningrad and the earlier victims of collectivization. Even with the American aid, many Russians died from lack of food.
Equally important was Lend-Lease’s contribution to transportation. It would have been impossible for the Red Army to move the masses of troops and supplies on the primitive roads to the front lines without American Studebaker trucks, which also served as the launching pads for the dreaded Soviet rocket artillery. The trucks were also used for more sinister activities, including the deportation of the North Caucasus Muslims. Less satisfactory for combat were the Western tanks, inferior to the German machines and particularly disadvantaged in the open terrain of the Eastern Front. The memoirs of General Dmitri Loza, published in English in 1996, give us a vivid picture of how these tanks were employed by the Russians.
American aircraft, flown by Russian ferry pilots across the vast expanse of Siberia, were put to good use by the Soviet air forces even with planes that were less than popular with Western pilots. A case in point was the Bell P-39 Airacobra, used both as a low-altitude fighter and as ground support. Its odd shape gave Soviet censors fits because it was difficult to conceal that it was the favorite mount of their second-highest-ranking ace, the future marshal of aviation, Aleksandar I. Pokryshkin.
Besides weaponry and food, Lend-Lease provided the Soviet Union with other resources, ranging from clothing to metals. With the start of the Cold War, Lend-Lease became a forgotten chapter in Soviet history and was only revived after glasnost. Now, thanks to Russian researchers and this excellent study, the West will have access to the real story. Lend-Lease provided vital help for the Soviet Union when the country was in desperate straits and made a significant contribution to the final victory. It also strengthened Josef Stalin, a fact that did not bother its chief architect, Franklin D. Roosevelt, who saw beyond the Allied victory and looked at Stalin as a counterbalance to the European colonial powers.
The victory over Nazi Germany was achieved through the economic power of the United States and the lives of millions of Soviets, who for reasons that defy logic made the ultimate sacrifice to keep in power a regime as brutal as their Nazi enemy.
What the Soviet Union needed after the war was a peacetime version of Lend-Lease, in this case the Marshall Plan, which Stalin rejected. Misled by the victory, the Soviet Union under Stalin and his successors embarked on an imperial policy that would have put the tsars to shame...[/FONT]
http://www.historynet.com/russias-l...d-to-the-ussr-in-world-war-ii-book-review.htm
This is more about emphasis than disputing some "facts", although some of those facts are misleading, such as the comment "With the Soviet's superior tank designs with tanks such as the T34 and IS2"
I agree the USSR took the major brunt of it.
Reviewed by Michael Parrish
By Albert L. Weeks
Lexington Books, New York, 2004
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A wartime cartoon in The New Yorker shows the docks of Murmansk covered with off-loaded containers and a Soviet official having trouble finding the word "spam" in the dictionary. Spam was one of the many food items sent to the former Soviet Union by the United States under the Lend-Lease Program first suggested by Winston Churchill, to which the United States contributed the major portion. The subject has been previously covered by such books as Hubert van Tuyll’s Feeding the Bear (1989), but the present well-written text has the advantage of access to Russian sources, which were put to good use by Albert Weeks. The author makes a clear case that the program was a major factor in the survival of the Soviet Union and the victory over Nazism. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] In two particular areas the help was indispensable. With major agricultural regions of the Soviet Union under enemy occupation, and the unsatisfactory system of distribution and transportation, to say nothing of mismanagement, the Soviet state had more than a nodding acquaintance with famine. Without Western aid, during the war the Soviet population would have been in danger of sharing the fate of those trapped in Leningrad and the earlier victims of collectivization. Even with the American aid, many Russians died from lack of food.
Equally important was Lend-Lease’s contribution to transportation. It would have been impossible for the Red Army to move the masses of troops and supplies on the primitive roads to the front lines without American Studebaker trucks, which also served as the launching pads for the dreaded Soviet rocket artillery. The trucks were also used for more sinister activities, including the deportation of the North Caucasus Muslims. Less satisfactory for combat were the Western tanks, inferior to the German machines and particularly disadvantaged in the open terrain of the Eastern Front. The memoirs of General Dmitri Loza, published in English in 1996, give us a vivid picture of how these tanks were employed by the Russians.
American aircraft, flown by Russian ferry pilots across the vast expanse of Siberia, were put to good use by the Soviet air forces even with planes that were less than popular with Western pilots. A case in point was the Bell P-39 Airacobra, used both as a low-altitude fighter and as ground support. Its odd shape gave Soviet censors fits because it was difficult to conceal that it was the favorite mount of their second-highest-ranking ace, the future marshal of aviation, Aleksandar I. Pokryshkin.
Besides weaponry and food, Lend-Lease provided the Soviet Union with other resources, ranging from clothing to metals. With the start of the Cold War, Lend-Lease became a forgotten chapter in Soviet history and was only revived after glasnost. Now, thanks to Russian researchers and this excellent study, the West will have access to the real story. Lend-Lease provided vital help for the Soviet Union when the country was in desperate straits and made a significant contribution to the final victory. It also strengthened Josef Stalin, a fact that did not bother its chief architect, Franklin D. Roosevelt, who saw beyond the Allied victory and looked at Stalin as a counterbalance to the European colonial powers.
The victory over Nazi Germany was achieved through the economic power of the United States and the lives of millions of Soviets, who for reasons that defy logic made the ultimate sacrifice to keep in power a regime as brutal as their Nazi enemy.
What the Soviet Union needed after the war was a peacetime version of Lend-Lease, in this case the Marshall Plan, which Stalin rejected. Misled by the victory, the Soviet Union under Stalin and his successors embarked on an imperial policy that would have put the tsars to shame...[/FONT]
http://www.historynet.com/russias-l...d-to-the-ussr-in-world-war-ii-book-review.htm
Please Juan, Good Lord, I didn't say Canada didn't contribute...........I never met an uncle as he was lost in bomber command in July 1941, before the USA was in.
Our contribution was huge.
BUT, the contribution of the USA, was 10 times ours, as is proper because of their population and econmic base.....
So, if our contribution was huge, and that of the USA was 10 times our own, is it not reasonable to say the US contribution was essential?
Our contribution was huge.
BUT, the contribution of the USA, was 10 times ours, as is proper because of their population and econmic base.....
So, if our contribution was huge, and that of the USA was 10 times our own, is it not reasonable to say the US contribution was essential?
Colpy, US materiel got to war before the GI ever set foot in a war zone. The war would likely have been lost without an industrial giant feeding the machine. The misconception is US footsoldiers tipped the balance which, in fact, they hadn't. That balance tipped when Hitler chose to switch his attention to Russia. I have no more doubt that Churchill was as content to see the Russians be pounded into oblivion as he would have been to see a refreshed British Empire take on the winner. Japan could have Asia. It was Europe that mattered.
As to the offensive cartoon.... Lighten up. I expect there was just as much offense taken when a Catholic became Prez....
As to the offensive cartoon.... Lighten up. I expect there was just as much offense taken when a Catholic became Prez....
That is all true.
But take a look at the distribution of beaches at Normandy sometime.........see how many were assigned to the Commonwealth.........and to the USA. Then consider trying it without US forces.
13 million men is not a drop in the bucket.
Hopefully, John McCain will have to deal with the problem....
I agree, what's needed is strong leadership and command experiance. I'm confident that his team has both. John McCain will take his rightfull place in history.:smile:
Normandy would not have been part of the plan in a Britain-only show. Russia and Germany were locked in a to-the-death battle that wasn't even half over. Churchill didn't want to take on a strong winner and Russia was not Britain's ally. US impatience forced a faster end and cost more lives on the BE/US end of things.
The swelling communist horde seems to have been the target from the wars inception certainly it also seems that the Nazis were purposely assembled and steered in that direction.
The cartoon wasn't even that funny, I found it sit-commidyish, something for yuppies to giggle at. But it works.
My post was consistant with my mission, I have stayed the course impecably, the final disintigration of the American empire will proceed very nicely with Mr McInsane.
Splitting hair purposes, Canada was in the war a lot longer then the US, and contributions are subjective.
My point is that it wasn't just the US who helped win WWII, it was all the allied nations who fought.... but if one wanted to nit pick the whole thing, the soviets put up the most fight and sacrafice against the Germans then any other allied nation...... and American built Jeeps sent to the USSR were not the winning factor.... as last I checked, Jeeps don't blow up Panzer III's very easily. (Not to mention it was Russian tank design which gave us Sloped Armour)
Added:
By the way.... how did this go from Obama and a cartoon to history lessons of WWII again?
I'm not sure how we got here from Obama.....
Jeeps don't blow up Panzer iiis, but the 7,056 Tanks the USA sent probably blew up a few, and Russian tanks were helped move by the 802,000 tons of petrol, and they probably used the 345,735 tons of explosives in munitions used to blow up Panzers, some of it delivered from the 14,795 aircraft.
The Russian campaign was a close thing. I submit that without US help, the USSR might have failed..........
Oh oh.