N. Korea attacks S. Korean island, killing 2 marines

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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Giving terrorists and dictatorships regimes benefit of the doubt as per usual, eh, Earth.

The South was conducting exercises on their territory which the UN ceded to them, the North artillery striking their island is a clear violation of the truce and the South's sovereignty.

I'm hardly giving N.Korea the "benefit of the doubt". I posted references to their version of events. I would call that being fair and balanced. I never claimed to believe North Korea's version of events any more than South Korea's version of the events.

As far as who has legal jurisdiction over this area, I'd say that's debatable. The UN was one of the belligerents in the Korean war and is hardly an honest broker in this dispute. In fact it wasn't the entire UN that went to war with North Korea. China and North Korea fought against the US and its allies including Canada. The fighting ended when both sides signed an armistice. That agreement does not define the boundary in this area. The area fell under South Korea's control, because the US dominated the seas. In the current situation, the undisputed part of this area which belongs to North Korea is a tiny sliver of sea which is barely navigable. The disputed area claimed by both North and South Korea is currently occupied by South Korea. This area has navigable waterways and rich fishing areas traditionally accessed by villagers who live in North Korea. IMO, North and South Korea should have an agreement which defines borders and allows North Korea to share this area's rich natural resources and the right to use the navigable waterways. Instead it is 100% occupied and controlled by South Korea thanks to presence of the US military.

As far as the MSM is concerned, few of their accounts mention the military exercises going on in the area before the shelling and none mention North Korea's claim that they were shelled first. That's hardly fair or balanced.

If I was to take an educated guess as to what happened, I'd say that South Korea's military exercises probably included a sustained and unnecessary barrage of heavy artillery in the disputed border area claimed by both sides. I doubt South Korea fired any shells into undisputed areas belonging to North Korea. Likely South Korea's barrage was close enough to the border that it was affecting navigation and fishing on the North Korean side of the border. North Korea complained and South Korea responded by shelling even closer to the border. Eventually South Korea succeeded into provoking a response from North Korea. It appears that North Korea did not shell any areas ceded to South Korea by the armistice. They appear to have restricted their response to military targets in the disputed area, which included an island garrisoned with South Korean marines. As far as I know, no civilians were killed or injured.

Assuming the above is true, then I'd judge both sides as being bad neighbors and equally responsible. But I don't know that's what happened. My opinion is based on a limited amount of information, severely slanted in favor of South Korea and speculation.

An analogy of the situation would be like having a noisy neighbor whose party has gone past midnight and shows no signs of letting up. You phone your neighbor and ask them to turn down the music. They respond by turning up the music. You pound on your neighbor's door and when they open the door, you punch them in the face, leading to a fist fight. After a few good shots by both sides, you return home a little bloody, but at least the music isn't blaring anymore.

IMO, both you and your neighbor have behaved like jerks.

Continuing with the analogy. You fight makes the news, the next day. All that is reported is your neighbor's version of events, no mention the loud party which preceded the fight, your neighbor's bloody nose is on the front page and you are portrayed as a crazy person (which might be true). Maybe you should have called the cops. However the cops are good friends with your neighbor and several off duty police officers were at your neighbor's party. Good luck getting a fair resolution to your noise complaint.

No I don't think this latest spat between bad neighbors will escalate. North Korea succeeded in ending the shelling along their border and South Korea doesn't want a hot war any more than North Korea.
 
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Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Are you kidding me? Have you not seen TEAM AMERICA?

That Kim Jung character is a loon?

He fed Hans Brix to a carp for God Sake!

Hans Brix was in the United Bloody Nations!

Get Real!

I don't know if you've seen Vice guide to film but those guys
got into North Korea with cameras.

We don't really get much of an idea just how crazy it is there.
It's multi part and fascinating.

YouTube - The Vice Guide to North Korea - Part 01
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Pyongyang will soon be filled with Chinese. A prebuilt hardly used infrastructure of an entire neighbouring nation is a gift from the gods. It's the last link to complete their South East Asian infrastructure system.

That's right. They want alllll the rice. Not just their own.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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United States

 

Starscream

Electoral Member
May 23, 2008
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North Korea has always been doing stuff like this to get recognition in the international community and to use as leverage in negotiations. The People's Republic of China has been keeping mum about the whole thing so far as they've been doing in the past whenever NK acts up.
 

china

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Jul 30, 2006
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ROK defense miniser resigns over exchange of fire with DPRK

(Xinhua)
Updated: 2010-11-25 19:59



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South Korean Defence Minister Kim Tae-Young offers condolences at a memorial altar for two dead Marines at a military hospital in Seongnam, south of Seoul November 25, 2010.[Photo/Agencies]
SEOUL - South Korean President Lee Myung-bak accepted defense minister's resignation on Thursday, according to the presidential office.
"President Lee decided to accept Defense Minister Kim Tae-young 's intent to step down," presidential chief of staff Yim Tae-hee told a press briefing.
Kim offered to quit to take responsibility for the alleged mishandling of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea's deadly artillery barrage on a South Korean island near the tense disputed Yellow Sea border between the two Koreas on Tuesday.
South Korea and the DPRK blamed each other for provocation, Yonhap news agency said.
Yim said the government plans to announce Kim's replacement on Friday.

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ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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"Skirmishes between the Korean militaries are not uncommon, but North Korea's heavy bombardment of Yeonpyeong Island was the first on a civilian area, raising fears of an escalation that could lead to a new war on the Korean peninsula."

Just as I thought, no crying out by our resident Amnesty International rep.

To take a quote from Amnesty International " Much of the destruction was wanton and resulted from direct attacks on civilian objects as well as indiscriminate attacks that failed to distinguish between legitimate military targets
and civilian objects. Such attacks violated fundamental provisions of international humanitarian law, notably the prohibition on direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects (the principle of distinction), the prohibition on indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and the prohibition on collective punishment."

Where is the outcry, what are Korean civilians any different, or are you waiting for thousands to die.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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To take a quote from Amnesty International " Much of the destruction was wanton and resulted from direct attacks on civilian objects as well as indiscriminate attacks that failed to distinguish between legitimate military targets
and civilian objects. Such attacks violated fundamental provisions of international humanitarian law, notably the prohibition on direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects (the principle of distinction), the prohibition on indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and the prohibition on collective punishment."
it's hard to tell if they are talking about Israel or N Korea.

 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I was not able to find any information regarding this attack at amnesty.org. which would be expected. Amnesty doesn't normally give an official opinion until they've gone over the evidence.

Detailed Information regarding this incident:

08:20: North sends a telex message requesting a halt to the South's artillery training exercise.
10:00: South starts the artillery training exercise.
14:34: North starts firing shells (around 150, of which about 60 land on Yeonpyeong)
14:38: South conducts emergency sorties with two KF-16 fighters.
14:40: South deploys four F-15K fighters.
14:46: South conducts another emergency sortie with two KF-16 fighters.
14:47: South fires back with the first round of K-9 howitzers (50 shells).
14:50: The highest alert (Alert Jindotgae Hana) ever given for a local provocation is issued.
14:55: North stops firing temporarily.
15:12: North starts firing for the second time (20 shells, all of which landed on the island).
15:25: South resumes firing back with K-9 howitzers (30 shells).
15:30: South telexes the North's military general level talk representative requesting an immediate halt to artillery shelling.
15:40 – 16:00: The South's Joint Chiefs of Staff Han Min-gu and USFK Commander Walter L. Sharp have a video conference (a review of cooperative crisis management).
15:41: North stops firing.
16:30: First military casualty reported.
16:35 – 21:50: Foreign and National Security representatives have a meeting.
16:42: South stops firing.
18:40: Lee Hong-gi, the South's Joint Chief of Staff Director of Operations, holds a press briefing.
20:35 – 21:10: South Korean President Lee Myung-bak meets with his Joint Chief of Staff.[16][21]

Casualties and damage

The shelling caused several casualties among South Koreans living on Yeongpyeong. Two South Korean marines, Hasa (Sergeant) Seo Jeong-wu and Ilbyeong (Private First Class) Moon Gwang-wuk, were killed. Six other military personnel were seriously wounded, and ten were treated for minor injuries. Two construction workers, Kim Chi-baek, 61, and Bae Bok-chul, 60, were also killed.[22][23] Additionally, the attack started widespread fires on the island. According to the local county office, 70 percent of the island's forests and fields were burned and 21 houses and warehouses and eight public buildings were destroyed in the bombardment. Most of the islanders were evacuated in the aftermath of the shelling. Around 1,500 of the 1,780 people resident on the island were taken aboard fishing boats and government vessels, with many of them being taken to Incheon on the mainland.[24] The Incheon city authorities sent 22 fire engines and ambulances to the island, along with firefighters and paramedics, to help with the recovery and relief effort. 2,000 boxes of emergency relief materials and more than 3,500 relief kits and boxes of food were sent to help residents recover.[24]

North Korean casualties were unknown, but Lee Hong-gi, the Director of Operations of the South Korean Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), claimed that as a result of the South Korean retaliation "there may be a considerable number of North Korean casualties".[25]
retrieved from wikipedia



South Korea artillery positions on these islands firing west would actually drop shells in undisputed North Korean territory. The South Korean artillery would have to fire south west to avoid North Korean territory.


Marine Navigation Map
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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The simple fact of the matter is South Korea is a democracy, a rich and prosperous nation with a free people, and a government that understands how disasterous war with North Korea would be.

North Korea is a starving psycho-Stalinist state way past anything even imagined in Orwell's 1984, and is led by a bunch of complete loonies.

Guess who is war-mongering?

EAO, you seem to have some kind of a psychological need to suck up to the worst factions on earth.....the Islamist Jew-hating, pedophile psychotics in their insane theocracies, the Chinese control freaks that have inherited a regime guilty of the worst excesses in the world's bloody history, and the most lunatic state on earth......North Korea.

While all the time claiming to be a human rights activist and a pacifist.

There's something a little......weird about that.....
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Since when does wanting to know truth equate to sucking up and war mongering? Anyone reading both of our posts can tell who is hate mongering and name calling.

back on subject,

I'm certain the mainstream media isn't giving us the whole story. I smell a rat. Maybe we'll have to wait for wikileaks to find out what really happened.

BTW C, you are welcome for the detailed information and maps.

Notice that firing due west from position 1 crosses line A (the Northern Limit Line) or into North Korean territory....
 
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