Minimum wage rises in Canada

[Machjo]

Personally, Canada needs to learn from its German and Swedish counterparts in how they integrate socialist ideas into the capitalist framework rather than pit them against one another as we seem to do in Canada.

 

[AnnaG]

If there is a MINIMUM WAGE, there should be a MINIMUM requirement of goods/services provided to earn and deserve that wage.

... starting with the provincial ministers and top bureaucrats.

Fair bet is that a test measuring the value of mimimum services/goods provided for a mimimum wage received would fail rather miserably, everywhere.

I doubt that. I have a friend who is a single mother with 3 minimum wage jobs. I doubt there's anyone in Canada that's working as hard as she is. Perhaps you are thinking about SOME of the teenaged kids who work a little in the summers?

 

[Machjo]

Are you saying that Sweden doesn't have a minimum wage? I didn't know that, and that does surprise me. But Sweden is cradle to grave welfare state, so they must have figures that if somebody is getting starvation wages, the state can always help him out. All the same, it is surprising.

But most civilized societies do have a minimum wage. I think minimum wage also has a broad based popular support. The fact that a place like Alberta has a minimum wage is the proof of that.

And what do you mean by 'civilized'. Is India not civilized to you, oh Raj?

No, Sweden has never, ever had a legal minimum wage. Instead, they've followed some solid economic theory in ensuring a quality education for all, thus increasing the market value of the worker. As a result, employers want to hire more workers because those workers actually make the company a profit. That is the smart market-oriented way of raising wages without arbitrarily pricing people out of the market and making their lives more difficult as a result. Now that is what I call civilized.:smile:

 

[Machjo]

I think one reason social democracy has proven more successful in Swden is that, ironically enough, they also have a conservative side to balance it out. In terms of government debt, inflation and the Bank rates, they really are quite conservative.

Yin and Yang, I suppose.

And that might be where Canada is failing. The left is too far left and the right is too far right and the center just goes with the flow with no clear vision of its own.

 

[AnnaG]

A minimum wage hurts the very people it's intended to help; it essentially prices them out of the market.

A better alternative would likely be to scrap minimum wages altogether and just introduce co-determination laws as they do in Germany:

Co-determination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This way workers would still have enough power to ensure that their employers cannot exploit them unfairly, yet still give them the flexibility to accept a lower wage then that is genuinely the only option possible.

A minimum wage does neither. If the employer exploits his employees unfairly by paying them minimum wage when in fact they are making him much more profit than that, then a simple minimum wage gives them no recourse. And if the employer is genuinely not making enough money to pay minimum wage, then a minimum wage essentially legislates the worker out of a job.

Co-determination laws would allow him to accept a lower wage when necessary yet also be able to negotiate a fair wage when he's genuinely making his employer a lot of money.

I would say though that in order to not give workers too much power over their employers, co-determination laws would have to come in exchange for the right to strike. No more striking would be allowed after this, as that too is not fair to workers who need the money and who can't afford to strike.

That doesn't sound like too bad of an idea.
A lot depends upon the employer: when my friend and I had our gift shop, during the summer we hired up to 3 kids to help out. We gave them more than minimum wage and if we made higher profits we shared more with them. Unfortunately for us and more kids, the economy killed our business. But that's the sort of society we built.

 

[Machjo]

Some have referred to Sweden and other Scandinavian countries as 'third Way' countries, since they freely adopt ideas from both the right and the left. Not to be confused with blind centrism.

 

[VanIsle]

... starting with the provincial ministers and top bureaucrats.

I doubt that. I have a friend who is a single mother with 3 minimum wage jobs. I doubt there's anyone in Canada that's working as hard as she is. Perhaps you are thinking about SOME of the teenaged kids who work a little in the summers?

Some teenaged kids do work hard. However, even the good workers often don't show up for work on the weekends or they show up so hung over they can barely function. The ones that actually show up though will probably get through life just fine because they "get it". People like myself, work every weekend because there is about a 100% chance I'm not going to call in and cancel the day due to a hangover.
We're having a terrible storm right now. There will be kids without cars that will call in "sick" simply because they don't want to be out in the storm.
Your friend is not alone in working her 3 jobs. There are lots of people like her and for kids who really want to go to university, lots of them are working at least 3 jobs. I work with kids who are going to school full time and trying to hold down at least 2 jobs so they can get through school. They sit at the lunchroom table trying to get their assignments done during their breaks.
If minimum wage was decent in BC, maybe your friend and others like her could get by on two jobs. Gordon Campbell - grinch!:-(

 

[SirJosephPorter]

In economic theory, there is no distinction. One is a price ceiling, the other a floor. They have the same effect but in reverse. With a ceiling, you increase demand owing to lower prices but reduce supply.With a floor, you increase supply (of workers let's say in the case of minimum wages) but reduce demand. Without such arbitrary minimum wages, a person could work for less if necessary.Now in Sweden, they have no minimum wage. What they do instead is improve education so that the worker's real market values is naturally high, thus making it worth hiring him at that wage without having to price him out of the market.

You forget that Sweden is a cradle to grave welfare state, the government provides for just about everything. If an employer is paying somebody very little, no doubt the will be eligible for some assistance from the government. Government looks after everybody in Sweden.

That is not the case in places like Canada, and minimum wage is necessary. And regardless of what your economic theories say, there has been very little actual effect on unemployment when minimum wage is increased. Indeed, now that it has been increased over most of Canada, let us see if unemployment rockets through the roof in the next few months.

This is the seventh increase in minimum wage in seven years in Ontario, Liberals have raised minimum wage every year. I am not aware of any economic depression (with 20% unemployment) in Ontario, By the same token, PC party did not raise minimum wage for eight years that it was in power. I am not aware that there was a huge economic boom during Harris years (with unemployment of less than 1%) as a result.

 

[AnnaG]

VanIsle, I was surprised at the low minimum wage in BC. Low minimum wage in Alberta doesn’t surprise me. Considering that the whole province belongs to the rabid right, I am surprised they have a minimum wage at all.

Smarten up. Alberta is likely the cheapest provinces to live in. Why would the min. wage need to be up around ON's?

Minimum wage is an essential part of the civilized society; it provides a floor, a protection for the lower class of the society, a minimum guarantee against unscrupulous employers. If we didn’t have minimum wage, people may literally starve in the streets.

Apparently you missed Machjo's post on co-determination. But, that's not surprising. You miss a great deal of stuff.

Also, there have been no studies to show that minimum wage hurts employment. If that had been true, we would expect unemployment of 25 or 30 % today, the minimum wage has been increased many times.

Shooting your big mouth off before you know the facts, as usual ....
The Effect of Minimum Wage Increases on Retail and Small Business Employment | EPI Study

Employment and the Minimum Wage—Evidence from Recent State Labor Market Trends

 

[lone wolf]

This is the seventh increase in minimum wage in seven years in Ontario, Liberals have raised minimum wage every year. I am not aware of any economic depression (with 20% unemployment) in Ontario, By the same token, PC party did not raise minimum wage for eight years that it was in power. I am not aware that there was a huge economic boom during Harris years (with unemployment of less than 1%) as a result.

So.... Now you're saying that Ontario fared better under Harris Conservatives than we do now under McGuinty Liberals.....

Will you make up your mind which way you swing?

Left-right-left-right pendulum's on parade....

 

[YukonJack]

AnnaG, if employers were allowed to pay more for deserving employees, and not put into an economic and totally unrealistic and unsustainable straight-jacket, your friend would earn more and the free-loaders would get less.

That is why any artificial law about wages is nothing more than liberal nonsense.

 

[VanIsle]

You forget that Sweden is a cradle to grave welfare state, the government provides for just about everything. If an employer is paying somebody very little, no doubt the will be eligible for some assistance from the government. Government looks after everybody in Sweden.

That is not the case in places like Canada, and minimum wage is necessary. And regardless of what your economic theories say, there has been very little actual effect on unemployment when minimum wage is increased. Indeed, now that it has been increased over most of Canada, let us see if unemployment rockets through the roof in the next few months.

This is the seventh increase in minimum wage in seven years in Ontario, Liberals have raised minimum wage every year. I am not aware of any economic depression (with 20% unemployment) in Ontario, By the same token, PC party did not raise minimum wage for eight years that it was in power. I am not aware that there was a huge economic boom during Harris years (with unemployment of less than 1%) as a result.

The PC party did not raise minimum wage! I'm not at all sure it has much of anything to do with a Federal government decision. Gordon Campbell, head of the BC Liberal party is the only person blocking raising the minimum wage here. For the most part, I believe only people like wait staff (who get by on tips) are earning minimum wages in this province.

 

[AnnaG]

And what do you mean by 'civilized'. Is India not civilized to you, oh Raj?

No, Sweden has never, ever had a legal minimum wage. Instead, they've followed some solid economic theory in ensuring a quality education for all, thus increasing the market value of the worker. As a result, employers want to hire more workers because those workers actually make the company a profit. That is the smart market-oriented way of raising wages without arbitrarily pricing people out of the market and making their lives more difficult as a result. Now that is what I call civilized.:smile:

I'd agree.

 

[AnnaG]

I think one reason social democracy has proven more successful in Swden is that, ironically enough, they also have a conservative side to balance it out. In terms of government debt, inflation and the Bank rates, they really are quite conservative.

Yin and Yang, I suppose.

And that might be where Canada is failing. The left is too far left and the right is too far right and the center just goes with the flow with no clear vision of its own.

I don't think so. Canada fails because the central gov't cannot make all the regions happy, and that's because of regional disparity being so broad. Like Les says, what does a martime fisher have in common with a prairie farmer? If the feds would relinquish some responsibility to the provinces, it'd help.
Another part is that we've become too dichotomized. It's either or, with nothing in between. There are more reasons but there's a couple main ones.

 

[Machjo]

You forget that Sweden is a cradle to grave welfare state, the government provides for just about everything. If an employer is paying somebody very little, no doubt the will be eligible for some assistance from the government. Government looks after everybody in Sweden.

I did not forget that at all. Sweden also has higher taxes than Canada does, and ensures quality education for all, even though there again they blend capitalism with socialism through a voucher system which privately owned schools can participate in too.

That is not the case in places like Canada, and minimum wage is necessary.

I agree that Canada's education system is inferior to Sweden's overall. Minimum wage laws though just make matter worse by then pricing less educated Canadians out of the market. As if its' not bad enough to have a poor educating system, we must then price our workers out of the market? How about we follow the Swedish model, retrain the unemployed for quality jobs, introduce co-determination laws as they have in Germany, scrap the minimum wage laws, and then let the market deal with the wages?

How does an uneducated person benefit from being priced out of the market owing to minimum wage laws. As if things aren't bad enough with low quality education, we then want to make them worse with minimum wage laws?8O

And regardless of what your economic theories say, there has been very little actual effect on unemployment when minimum wage is increased.

If that's the case, then it must be because the minimum wage laws have been raised so little as to still have been kept below the equilibrium rate, in which case they really have no impact either positive or negative. For example, imagine the government passed a law requiring houses to be sold at a minimum price of 100$. Would that have much of an impact? If that's the case, then we must conclude that Canada's minimum wage increases are really just a tactic to win votes without having to really cause any real change.

Indeed, now that it has been increased over most of Canada, let us see if unemployment rockets through the roof in the next few months.

Again, you're stuck in statistics. If it should cause even one person to lose his job, for him it is a tragedy.

This is the seventh increase in minimum wage in seven years in Ontario, Liberals have raised minimum wage every year. I am not aware of any economic depression (with 20% unemployment) in Ontario, By the same token, PC party did not raise minimum wage for eight years that it was in power. I am not aware that there was a huge economic boom during Harris years (with unemployment of less than 1%) as a result.

Again, if the minimum wage is not raised to above the equilibrium rate, then it's as if that minimum wage does not even exist. And in those cases where it does go above the equilibrium rate, it will cost jobs. So either way, some people won't even notice the impact, while others will lose their jobs. If the minimum wage is too low, most won't notice. If it's too high, some will lose their jobs. So in the end, in most cases either the minimum wage has no impact or has a negative impact. So either way, what's the point?

 

[AnnaG]

Some teenaged kids do work hard. However, even the good workers often don't show up for work on the weekends or they show up so hung over they can barely function. The ones that actually show up though will probably get through life just fine because they "get it". People like myself, work every weekend because there is about a 100% chance I'm not going to call in and cancel the day due to a hangover.
We're having a terrible storm right now. There will be kids without cars that will call in "sick" simply because they don't want to be out in the storm.
Your friend is not alone in working her 3 jobs. There are lots of people like her and for kids who really want to go to university, lots of them are working at least 3 jobs. I work with kids who are going to school full time and trying to hold down at least 2 jobs so they can get through school. They sit at the lunchroom table trying to get their assignments done during their breaks.
If minimum wage was decent in BC, maybe your friend and others like her could get by on two jobs. Gordon Campbell - grinch!:-(

Yup. Some kids are great, some aren't. And you are right about Campbull; he's arrogant and hasn't a clue what we lesser forms of life have to go through.

 

[Machjo]

I don't think so. Canada fails because the central gov't cannot make all the regions happy, and that's because of regional disparity being so broad. Like Les says, what does a martime fisher have in common with a prairie farmer? If the feds would relinquish some responsibility to the provinces, it'd help.
Another part is that we've become too dichotomized. It's either or, with nothing in between. There are more reasons but there's a couple main ones.

Agreed overall.

 

[AnnaG]

You forget that Sweden is a cradle to grave welfare state, the government provides for just about everything. If an employer is paying somebody very little, no doubt the will be eligible for some assistance from the government. Government looks after everybody in Sweden.

That is not the case in places like Canada, and minimum wage is necessary. And regardless of what your economic theories say, there has been very little actual effect on unemployment when minimum wage is increased. Indeed, now that it has been increased over most of Canada, let us see if unemployment rockets through the roof in the next few months.

Care to provide support for your statement? You're wrong sometimes, so what says you are right about this?

This is the seventh increase in minimum wage in seven years in Ontario, Liberals have raised minimum wage every year. I am not aware of any economic depression (with 20% unemployment) in Ontario, By the same token, PC party did not raise minimum wage for eight years that it was in power. I am not aware that there was a huge economic boom during Harris years (with unemployment of less than 1%) as a result.

.... and yet it wasn't until recently that ON started whining about being a have-not province. Somewhere around the end of 2008 or the beginning of 2009 N/L became a have pair and ON became a have-not. What happened to that touted Gliberal management?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And what do you mean by 'civilized'. Is India not civilized to you, oh Raj?

No, Sweden has never, ever had a legal minimum wage. Instead, they've followed some solid economic theory in ensuring a quality education for all, thus increasing the market value of the worker. As a result, employers want to hire more workers because those workers actually make the company a profit. That is the smart market-oriented way of raising wages without arbitrarily pricing people out of the market and making their lives more difficult as a result. Now that is what I call civilized.:smile:

India is a developing country, in spite of what some conservatives claim here. No developing country can be considered civilized. Did you see 'Slumdog millioniare'? Most of the things you see there are based upon real life (little boy jumping into a pile of sh*t, or men removing eyes of little children, making them blind to turn them into beggars etc.), there is very little exaggeration in the movie.

 

[AnnaG]

AnnaG, if employers were allowed to pay more for deserving employees, and not put into an economic and totally unrealistic and unsustainable straight-jacket, your friend would earn more and the free-loaders would get less.

That is why any artificial law about wages is nothing more than liberal nonsense.

lol You sure trust that all employers are fair-minded. As far as I know, there's no maximum limit to an employee's wage, so I don't quite understand why you said "if employers were allowed to pay more for deserving employees".