I Watched a Public Execution Today

[Colpy]

Bringing a knife to a gun fight?

Sounds a little crazy to me. In close quarters, I could understand a good bit of urgency to get the guy stopped, but outside in the open with five men to one, there were other options. two or three policemen with batons should have been able to swarm one man with a knife and disarm him. All five policemen standing back and shooting is more than a little cowardly. Maybe it was just lack of training or lack of leadership.

They are taught to be "cowardly". How many times have I heard it from trainers?

"The ONLY important thing is that YOU go home safely at the end of your shift"

I have been playing the Devil's advocate here. I think people who have never been in so much as a street fight second-guessing guys whose lives are at risk is laughable. Most people have no idea what proper procedure in an armed confrontation is. That is demonstrated by the numbers that what the police to shoot the guy in the arm. NOT DONE. Period.

At the same time, I can see the point about night sticks. But all it would take is for the guy to make one lucky slash or stab..........dead cop. Remember, bullet proof vests DO NOT stop edged weapons.

So you are asking these guys to risk their lives to subdue without harm a guy who obviously means them harm..........you're asking a little much.

 

[tracy]

I'm sorry to sound horribly callous, but I have a hard time getting angry that the police killed a man with a knife threatening them AFTER trying pepper spray. If he didn't want to be shot by those cops he had ample opportunity to STOP THREATENING THEM WITH A DEADLY WEAPON! Police brutality is a legitimate issue, but shooting someone with a knife after trying to safely disarm them is not police brutality, it's common sense policy. When did people with violent intent suddenly have the absolute right to safety at the expense of cops'? maybe I was just raised differently, but I've always known you don't threaten cops with weapons unless you want trouble.

Anyone who thinks there are easy or safe ways to disarm someone with a knife hasn't tried before. If a man didn't react to pepper spray, I have a hard time believing a shot to the arm would stop him. Have you ever seen the results of pepper spray? My brother had to be pepper sprayed as part of their training. He's a big tough guy and he was down. The instructors took pictures of it so they would never forget how serious pepper spray is. If a man can withstand that without being affected, he's not going down from a simple flesh wound to the arm. It's easy to say what they should have done when it presents no risk to YOUR safety.

 

[Summer]

RE: I Watched a Public Ex

My guess is that they didn't manage to actually hit him full force with the pepper spray, but if they'd hit him square in the arm that had the knife, he'd had no choice but to drop it because his arm wasn't working anymore.

 

[#juan]

"The ONLY important thing is that YOU go home safely at the end of your shift"

With a little leadership, they could have subdued that man without shooting him. The guy might have ended up with a broken head and some serious injuries. A police baton in the hands of someone skilled in it's use, is at least as dangerous as a small knife. Five policemen with batons could easily have taken that guy out without shooting him.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I Watched a Public Ex

My guess is that they didn't manage to actually hit him full force with the pepper spray, but if they'd hit him square in the arm that had the knife, he'd had no choice but to drop it because his arm wasn't working anymore.

You're assuming a lot there. It actually isn't all that easy to disable an arm with a bullet. Being shot in the arm doesn't automatically mean your arm won't work anymore, that's just a flesh wound. That's precisely why cops are not trained to shoot someone in the arm, besides the fact that they are much more likely to miss. These guys aren't sharp shooters and that man was obviously high on adrenaline if nothing else which makes it much more likely he'd still be a danger even IF they got lucky enough to shoot him in the arm, which again goes completely against their training.

Best way to avoid incidents like this is to not threaten cops with knives.

 

[tracy]

If anyone doubts that a shot to the extremities doesn't completely disable, do you not remember the cop who was killed in Coburg Ontario a couple of years ago (I can't spell sorry)? He was stabbed to death and although he managed to shoot his killer in the leg, the killer still was able to get away and wasn't captured until later. That freak in Alberta wasn't stopped by flesh wounds either, he had to kill himself because the cops didn't hit him in the body.

 

[tracy]

"The ONLY important thing is that YOU go home safely at the end of your shift"

With a little leadership, they could have subdued that man without shooting him.

And you might have a dead police officer to go along with that scenario. Maybe that's ok with you, but it isn't with me.

 

[Summer]

RE: I Watched a Public Ex

remember, there were 5 of them and one of him, it's statistically almost a certainty that he'd have been hit bad enough to be disabled

 

[the caracal kid]

well, i have not seen the video but in general, both sides so far have fair points.

shooting the centre body mass is the best option because it has the highest likelihood of success.

on the other side, society is programmed to trust police officers because they are your friends. this is far from an accurate picture of what police are. police are humans, and they carry prejuduces like all humans, they are driven by addrenaline in high stress scenarios that affects decision making processes, they are driven by their own career objectives, etc. The segregations of society make it no safer to be the wrong colour in the wrong neighbourhood and run into a cop or a gang, for in essence the cops are just government sanctioned gangs (and their group dynamics demonstate this).

 

[Patsplace]

Too many movies of the guy in the white hat shooting the gun out of the bad guys hand. In a life and death confrontation, and the list of cops killed by some deranged person or criminal with a knife is way too long, the idea is to fire into the center of mass until the threat is removed. Not a neat thing to watch but it'd be a really ugly thing to watch the same knife user get next to the cop and kill him.

In spite of the current left leaning and politically correct dislike of all things American, we can learn from them how to do many, many things, not in the least of which is how to deal with really dangerous people and neighbourhoods, they do have the experience. Check out New York from 20 years ago to today.
Pat

 

[MMMike]

This guy had a knife! Its not as if the police started this confrontation. You sit on your couch and say they should have risked their lives by trying to shoot him in the finger or hand. Thats b.s. - police are trained to shoot to kill, not to wound. They tried to get him to surrender. Maybe the training and knowledge is not there when they are dealing with mentally unbalanced people. Maybe they should be given more tools and non-lethal means of incapacitating these people. But assuming this was unavailable to them, who the hell are we to condemn these officers?

 

[the caracal kid]

yet one must also consider why the Americans have so much experience.

One becomes an excellent swimmer by getting in the water and swimming. The Americans have become so "good" at dealing with "dangerous people and neighbourhoods" because they have been so successful at creating these people and neighbourhoods. Our lesson should be to not create such divisions amungst our populace, and to not glorify violence.

 

[Summer]

Too many movies of the guy in the white hat shooting the gun out of the bad guys hand. In a life and death confrontation, and the list of cops killed by some deranged person or criminal with a knife is way too long, the idea is to fire into the center of mass until the threat is removed. Not a neat thing to watch but it'd be a really ugly thing to watch the same knife user get next to the cop and kill him.

In spite of the current left leaning and politically correct dislike of all things American, we can learn from them how to do many, many things, not in the least of which is how to deal with really dangerous people and neighbourhoods, they do have the experience. Check out New York from 20 years ago to today.
Pat

Hardly, Pat. Besides, in those movies, it's one on one, not 5 on 1.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I Watched a Public Ex

remember, there were 5 of them and one of him, it's statistically almost a certainty that he'd have been hit bad enough to be disabled

Statistically? There is no way you can say that using any facts as your basis, that's just an assumption. If one cop is likely to miss, then so is his buddy.

First off, even to do it the five of them would have to stop and discuss it. "Hey, guys, I say we ignore all our training and policies and on the count of three we try to shoot him in the arm. Who is with me?"... "Well, gee Bob, I dunno, what if we miss?" "Well, I think it's a good idea Bob, I'm with you" etc. while they are keeping their weapons pointed at this looney with a knife who has already withstood pepperspray and refused to drop his weapon. Now, maybe they all agree and count to three and shoot. I am assuming the guy with the knife isn't going to oblige by standing still as they do this. The officers are all scared, probably have some shaking hands, maybe a couple get lucky and hit him in the arm. Maybe that actually causes him to drop his knife (which again, is a big maybe, someone on PCP will get shot and not even flinch) and maybe they can get him down without him stabbing or slashing any of the officers. Those are all pretty big risks to expect them to take. That's why their training is to shoot to kill.

The only sure way this would have ended peacefully is if that man put down his knife.

 

[Nosferax]

Re: RE: I Watched a Public Ex

Well, what would have been wrong with shooting him in the arm that had the knife? And maybe in the other one too so he couldn't switch hands? That would have neutralized him effectively.

Those aren't John Wayne there... Aiming for a moving hand with a hand gun is not that simple especialy when you are stressed out due to the fact that if you miss the guy can skewer you with is knife.

Don't believe all you see in action movie.

 

[Summer]

RE: I Watched a Public Ex

Oh for Pete's sake....
I'm not talking about action movies, I said ARM not HAND, and if you shoot someone in the shoulder or in the upper arm fight below the shoulder they are not likely to be able to stab you easily with that arm. Shoulders are furthermore much larger targets than hands, don't move as much, and are close enough to the core body that if you can hit someone in the chest or gut, you can hit them in the shoulder.

But no, everyone is fixated on action movies here, rather than on reality.

Forget it. I'm out of this thread. Support police brutality all you want, but don't make me read it.

 

[Nosferax]

Re: RE: I Watched a Public Ex

Oh for Pete's sake....
I'm not talking about action movies, I said ARM not HAND, and if you shoot someone in the shoulder or in the upper arm fight below the shoulder they are not likely to be able to stab you easily with that arm. Shoulders are furthermore much larger targets than hands, don't move as much, and are close enough to the core body that if you can hit someone in the chest or gut, you can hit them in the shoulder.

But no, everyone is fixated on action movies here, rather than on reality.

Forget it. I'm out of this thread. Support police brutality all you want, but don't make me read it.

You arms represent what? 10 to 15% of your body mass at most... You shoot where you have the greatest chance to hit... The guy had is chance to drop his weapon, he was a risk for the population and for the cops, they tried with the pepper spray... And knowing the US police force they were probably shouting at him all this time to drop his ?&%$ knife and lie down spread eagle... He didn't comply so they shot him like they were train... You don't want to get shot by cops, then don't resist arrest while being armed with a deadly weapon... For G-d sake the guy wasn't selling girl scout cookies...

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: I Watched a Public Ex

Oh for Pete's sake....
I'm not talking about action movies, I said ARM not HAND, and if you shoot someone in the shoulder or in the upper arm fight below the shoulder they are not likely to be able to stab you easily with that arm. Shoulders are furthermore much larger targets than hands, don't move as much, and are close enough to the core body that if you can hit someone in the chest or gut, you can hit them in the shoulder.

But no, everyone is fixated on action movies here, rather than on reality.

Forget it. I'm out of this thread. Support police brutality all you want, but don't make me read it.

You arms represent what? 10 to 15% of your body mass at most... You shoot where you have the greatest chance to hit... The guy had is chance to drop his weapon, he was a risk for the population and for the cops, they tried with the pepper spray... And knowing the US police force they were probably shouting at him all this time to drop his ?&%$ knife and lie down spread eagle... He didn't comply so they shot him like they were train... You don't want to get shot by cops, then don't resist arrest while being armed with a deadly weapon... For G-d sake the guy wasn't selling girl scout cookies...

maybe part of the messy problem is all that Rambo SHOUTING..and free floating testosterone. Five big burley seasoned cops with guns against ONE black guy with a knife. ( do we know how BIG this KNIFE was??) Instant justice?? American style???

Kinda too bad these seasoned cops don't know how to deal with aggressive knife weilding people when they are cornered. Maybe they should take a lot more psychological handling/skills in their training with continuous updates so as to deal with this without all that yelling, screaming , and igniting the situation until the ONE BLACK person.....is SHOT DEAD. (and no I am not talking about what some peoples version of psychology is......(the outdated "couch thing". ) THere are tools /skills in dealing with ths......and should be part of the training. ( but Maybe those cops are just too macho (gun) obsessed to consider these tools as viable options.

Interesting society .......and even more interesting to see the kind of responses this has yeiled. Some still defend guns as the only option .....in this case scenario.

What does society LEARN from situations like this??......IF ANYTHING??

 

[tracy]

"Kinda too bad these seasoned cops don't know how to deal with aggressive knife weilding people when they are cornered"

They do know how to deal with them, and they did it in this case. Sometimes there aren't any perfect options. The man being black has nothing to do with it. They showed the video of this on my morning news, and he was not standing still, he was moving around and waving the knife. It didn't look to me like a Crocodile Dundee knife, but it looked big enough.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: I Watched a Public Execution Today

"Kinda too bad these seasoned cops don't know how to deal with aggressive knife weilding people when they are cornered"

They do know how to deal with them, and they did it in this case. Sometimes there aren't any perfect options. The man being black has nothing to do with it. They showed the video of this on my morning news, and he was not standing still, he was moving around and waving the knife. It didn't look to me like a Crocodile Dundee knife, but it looked big enough.

ok........but what if he was ill.??? What if he had some neurological problem where he COULD NOT stand still.......and particularly under HI STRESS??? There are too many unknowns.......and taking the most expedient action is not nec the smartest way....

but the deed is done. So have we learned anything.....or is this to be accepted as fait accompli and the standard for dealing with this kind of situation??

5 against one ........ :x Not impressed. They could have calmed him down by using calming tactics as opposed to verbal Rambo tactics...... as not sure what the RUSH was to KILL him...

It does not seem like the man was a trained Samurai.......and gone nuts weilding the Samurai Sword....