Hundreds of Natives assert their land claim rights

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Re: RE: Hundreds of Natives assert their land claim rights

iamcanadian said:
Better that people protest this way in Caledonia than the way a 67 year old man protested last week in the Town of Caledon, not too far away, by dousing himself with gasoline and setting himself ablaze inside Caledon Town Hall in protest against corrupt government activities going on there.

http://www.northpeel.com/br/orangeville/news/story/3443495p-3980420c.html
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
1
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Re: RE: Hundreds of Natives a

Laika said:
Johnny Utah said:
Here lies the problem, the point of the Criminal demonstration is to better their lives of Crime but the Criminal Acts by the Criminals of starting Criminal Fires and attack Police Officers takes away the point of the Criminal demonstration because now all you see are the Criminals committing Criminal Acts that are Crimes.

Fixed that for ya. :lol:
I see that. :lol: Well as long as you have Criminals committing Criminal Acts the point the issue of the demonstration falls of deaf ears and in doing that Natives still suffer. :eek:
 

nelk

Electoral Member
May 18, 2005
108
0
16
atlantic canada
The concept to herd natives into reserves with only the minmum of consideration, while the "cleared land" was sold off or otherwise turned into cash, was wrong and is seen in many parts of this world as equal to other historic atrocities committed.

The ones guilty, even posthumanly should be called to account and their (ill gotten) assets used to reimburse.
Much of the wealth in Canada can still be traced to these ugly beginnings. Gold never rots !

Constant underhanded payoffs of ever increasing budgets have not solved the injustice of long ago, but will load down every taxpaying Canadian Citizen or PR in ever increasing proportion.Just by association living in this country; not fair!

Dont forget the 7 Bill $ or so are only one part of the transfer payment.
All other social payments ( federal and provincial) are on top off that.
And to fly someone from a far north reserve for a tonsillitis to the next hospital etc does add up.

No easy answers, but at some point hard decision have to be made.
Can't stick the head in the sand forever!
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: Hundreds of Natives assert their land claim rights

Jay said:
iamcanadian said:
Better that people protest this way in Caledonia than the way a 67 year old man protested last week in the Town of Caledon, not too far away, by dousing himself with gasoline and setting himself ablaze inside Caledon Town Hall in protest against corrupt government activities going on there.

http://www.northpeel.com/br/orangeville/news/story/3443495p-3980420c.html

This is the more correct story with a little less spin

Man tries to set himself ablaze in town hall
Apr. 12, 2006. 05:44 AM
JIM WILKES
STAFF REPORTER


Three police officers who suffered burns as they tried to stop a man from setting himself on fire outside the office of Caledon Mayor Marolyn Morrison are being hailed as heroes.

The 67-year-old man was engulfed in a brief, but intense fireball yesterday when he dropped a can of gasoline to the floor of the town offices and struck a match as police tried to talk him out of setting the fuel ablaze.

It was over in mere seconds, as volunteer firefighters standing nearby sprayed the four men with chemical extinguishers.

The officers, including Insp. Andy Karski, commander of the nearby Ontario Provincial Police detachment, suffered minor burns and inhaled the chemical powder as they extinguished flames on the man's clothes. All three were treated in hospital and later released.

The unidentified suspect remained under guard last night at Brampton's Peel Memorial Hospital.

"These officers are absolutely heroic," said OPP Sgt. Bob Paterson. "When you look at the potential threat and consider the explosive possibilities of that gasoline, it's terrifying."

The mayor was not in her office when the drama unfolded shortly before 10 a.m. in the municipal offices on Olde Church Rd. in Caledon East, a half-hour drive north of Brampton.

A man walked into the lobby carrying a cardboard box that contained a gas container, climbed a few stairs to the level where the mayor's office is located and sat down on a chair in the hall. "The staff could smell gasoline and they immediately called senior staff who called police and fire," said Patrick Moyle, Caledon's chief administrative officer.

An OPP officer on duty at the adjacent courthouse was first on scene and approached the man just as Fire Chief Brad Bigrigg, who was attending a meeting of department heads, walked into the middle of the confrontation.

He said he could see instantly there was a problem as the officer calmly tried to find out what the man wanted.

"When you mix that with the odour of gasoline in a public building, you know things aren't going well," Bigrigg said.

He organized firefighters as police converged to negotiate with the man while staff were evacuated.

As officers talked with the man, he dropped the box, which lit up in a yellow flash. "You could feel the concussion when it flashed up," Bigrigg said. "It was a big ball of fire, but it died down and was extinguished pretty quickly."

The three officers pounced on the man and extinguished his clothes. Karski suffered burns to his hands and forearms. Also injured were Sgt. Ron Gignac and Const. James Holden.

Police have been unable to figure out what motivated the man to self-immolation. Moyle said he was unaware of threats against the town or its officials.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...l_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

Edited URL to prevent side-scrolling. Cosmo
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Can we go through this sensibly?

At Ipperwash, the government seized the land for a military base during WWII, promising to return it when the war was over..........they did not, therefore the Indians were right to protest and claim their land.

At Oka, the Mohawk land had been used for a Jesuit mission in the eighteenth century, with Mohawk approval. When the Jesuits were later expelled from canada (as they were from most nations) their property was seized by the state including the mission, and the surrounding land. This land was definitely Mohawk, and the Indians were right to fight back.

Guess what?

The land this new subdivision is being built on was SOLD by the band in 1841.

Game, set, match.

Shut up and go back to the Res.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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I supported the Natives prior to OKA. I supported their claim and their cause. Then a cop got killed, then the weapons came out.

That changed everything. This path they are taking is wrong and does nothing to gain my support and judging by many posts, the support of most Canadians.

M
 

Laika

Electoral Member
Apr 22, 2005
225
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Where The Wild Things Are
RE: Hundreds of Natives a

Well, I guess I just wanted to present another point of view. If they do not have a legitimate claim then they should gtfo, yep. And violence is just the wrong way to go about anything. I mean come on, we are all better than that!

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intent. Forgive me.

<3 :)
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Re: RE: Hundreds of Natives assert their land claim rights

Retired_Can_Soldier said:
I supported the Natives prior to OKA. I supported their claim and their cause. Then a cop got killed, then the weapons came out.

That changed everything. This path they are taking is wrong and does nothing to gain my support and judging by many posts, the support of most Canadians.

M

The policemen killed at Oka was involved in an assault on the natives that was like something out of World War I. The evidence seems to indicate that the police (at the insistence of the Quebec gov't) charged Indian positions with guns blazing.

In that case, if that is what happened, the killing was in self defense. A tragedy, yes. But IF that is what happened, the Indians showed great restraint in not killing a number of police.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Independent Palestine
I agree with what Colpy has to say. Ipperwash was native land, taken by the military and not returned and resulted in the death of an unarmed protestor.

Oka, the cops attacked the barricade, the Native responded with gun fire and sadly a police officer was killed. However, what is unknown is that two elderly native people were killed, as well, both Canadian veterns, one suffering a heart attack after being attackede by racist whites. And another dying from tear gas.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Colpy, don't believe everything you see or hear in the media. In a post OKA enviroment there were ridiculous allegations that soldiers bayoneted old woman and children.

This was done by one of the Chief negotiators raising money for the cause and using lies as a flashpoint..

There were no guns ablazing when the Surete Quebec arrived on site, but if there had the police would have had just cause.

After the Long House raid a weapons cache that included fully automatic weapons was an eye opener. Your assumption of self defense could easily be equated to Jim Jones, David Coresh or the Manson Gang.

When a group picks up arms they diminish the credibility of their cause. That is what the Native people did at OKA and that is what they are doing now.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Despite the letter, the mayor asked the Sûreté du Québec to intervene on July 11, citing Mohawk criminal activity around the barricade. The Mohawk warriors, in accordance with the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy, asked the women, the caretakers of the land and "progenitors of the nation", whether or not the arsenal they had amassed should remain. The women decreed that the weapons should be used only if the Sûreté du Québec opened fire first.

A police SWAT team swiftly attacked the barricade firing tear gas canisters and concussion grenades in an attempt to create confusion in the Mohawk ranks. It is unclear whether the police or Mohawks opened fire with gunshots first, but after a thirty-second firefight the police fell back, abandoning six cruisers and a bulldozer. During the gun battle, 31 year old Corporal Marcel Lemay of the Sûreté du Québec was shot in the face and died a short while later, leaving behind a two-year-old daughter and his pregnant wife. After the funeral a few days later, the SQ and the Mohawks lowered their flags to half-mast. The Mohawks sent condolences but refused to accept responsibility for the death, blaming Mayor Ouellette for ordering the armed assault on the blockade.


Native Indians from the Seton Lake Indian Band blockade the BC Rail line in support of Oka, while an RCMP officer looks on.The situation escalated as the local Mohawks were joined by natives from across Canada and the United States. The natives refused to dismantle their barricade and the Sûreté du Québec established their own blockades to restrict access to Oka and Kanesatake. Other Mohawks at Kahnawake, in solidarity with the Kanesatake Mohawks, blockaded the Mercier Bridge between the Island of Montreal and the South Shore suburbs at the point where it passed through their territory. At the peak of the crisis, the Mercier Bridge and highways 132, 138 and 207 were all blocked. Enormous traffic jams and frayed tempers resulted as the crisis dragged on.

The Canadian federal government agreed to spend 5.3 million dollars to purchase the section of the pines where the expansion was to take place, to prevent any further development. This exchange left the Mohawks outraged as the problems that led to the situation had not been addressed - ownership of the land had simply moved from one level of government to another.

Racial hatred occasionally broke through the surface of the crisis as traffic frustration at the blockades grew into anger. The flames were fanned by radio host Gilles Proulx who repeatedly reminded his listeners that the Mohawks "couldn't even speak French" and the federal Member of Parliament for Chateauguay said that all the natives in Quebec should be shipped off to Labrador "if they wanted their own country so much".


Mohawk warrior Ronald "Lasagne" Cross tries to provoke a 'Van Doo' perimeter sentry while surrounded by mediaWhen it was apparent that the Sûreté du Québec had lost control of the situation, the RCMP was brought in but were soon overwhelmed by the Mohawks and mobs created by the blocked traffic. Ten constables were hospitalized and on 14 August Quebec premier Robert Bourassa requisitioned the assistance of the Canadian Forces in "aid to the civil power" by invoking the National Defence Act. Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was reluctant, but had no choice as it was Bourassa's right under the Act to employ the military when required to maintain law and order as he had in the October Crisis in 1970. The Chief of the Defence Staff, General John de Chastelain accordingly placed Quebec-based troops in support of the provincial authorities. Some 2 500 regular and reserve troops from the 34th and 35th Canadian Brigade Groups and the 5th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group were put on notice and, on the morning of 20 August, 33 troops of the Quebec-based Royal 22e Regiment, the 'Van Doos', led by Major Alain Tremblay took three barricades and arrived at the final blockade leading to the disputed area. The Sûreté du Québec had established a no man's land of one and a half kilometres between themselves and the barricade at the Pines, but the army pushed this to within five metres.

[edit]
Resolution
On August 29, at the Mercier Bridge blockade, the Mohawks negotiated an end to their protest with Lieutenant Colonel Robin Gagnon, 'Van Doo' commander on the South Shore of Montreal. Then the siege of the Kahnawake reserve was over. The Mohawks at Oka felt betrayed at the loss of their most effective bargaining chip, for once traffic was flowing again, the Quebec government rejected all further negotiations.

On September 25, the final engagement of the crisis took place when a Mohawk warrior walked around the perimeter with a long stick, setting off the flares the army had set up to warn them of any escapes from the area. The army turned a hose on the man, but the hose lacked enough pressure to disperse a crowd. The Mohawks taunted the soldiers and then started throwing water balloons at them. Some Canadian soldiers responded by returning intact water balloons and a playful water fight ensued.

By September 26 the Mohawks had had enough. They dismantled their guns and threw them in a septic tank, ceremonially burned tobacco and then walked out of the pines and back to the reservation. Many were arrested by the army.

The Oka Crisis lasted seventy-eight days and resulted in the death of SQ Corporal Marcel Lemay. Two other deaths have also been indirectly attributed to the crisis: Joe Armstrong, a seventy-one-year-old World War II veteran who had died of a stress-induced heart attack after a confrontation with an angry Quebecois crowd; and an elderly Quebecois man who died after being exposed to tear gas on July 11.

The golf-course expansion, which had originally triggered the situation, was cancelled. The Oka Crisis eventually precipitated the development of Canada's First Nations Policing Policy.

[edit]
Repercussions
International response to the Oka Crisis was harsh. The International Federation of Human Rights has criticized the tactics of both the SQ and the Canadian Army. Amnesty International raised allegations of torture and abuses following the final arrest of six of the Mohawk warriors, and added Canada to its list of human rights violators.

Mayor of Oka, Jean Ouellette was reelected in a landslide victory in 1991 and said of the crisis, "If I had to do it all again, I would," citing his responsibilities as mayor.

A few years after the crisis, the Mohawks of Kahnawake established the Kahnawake Gaming Commission and started issuing "licences" to gambling operators who host their Internet gaming websites on their reserve. Both the Canadian and Quebec governments dispute the legality of this operation, but have not risked taking further action. The websites hosted by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission are the only gambling sites that have operated in North America without legal action being taken against them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oka_Crisis#The_crisis
 

Valentine_Smith

New Member
Apr 18, 2006
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So when Canadians picked up arms to battle the American invaision the cause wasn't "just" and made even more unjust because Canadians "picked up arms"??

The United States was born as were many other states at the point of a gun there Retired and history is replete with many instances of the same thing.

The IRA would argue that the tremendous imbalance posed by armored vehicles and fully automatic weapons brought to bear by the British in Northern Ireland gave them all the justification they needed....

I just don't think everything from Oka and Ipperwash to Palestinians and Israel is a black and white as you frequently seem to characterize these situations.

A little more lattitude and a lot more dialogue seems to be the ingredient missing when one side (any side) decides that cause "X" has lost its credibility because "they" picked up guns....
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: Hundreds of Natives assert their land claim rights

Retired_Can_Soldier said:
Colpy, don't believe everything you see or hear in the media.

Your are right on this point. Look at the two storys I posted about another protest over government acts and see the spins the paid media put on it, obvioulsy at the behest of local governments:

Read This Link:
http://www.canadiancontent.net/en/j...l_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News


Then This Link
http://www.northpeel.com/br/orangeville/news/story/3443495p-3980420c.html
This is what our media does with news that is critical of government activities. So don't trust anything you read in the media about what the government did or is doing.

(P.S. Sorry about the long link. I don't know how to shrink it further.)
 

Lotuslander

Electoral Member
Jan 30, 2006
158
0
16
Vancouver
Colpy wrote:

The native band sold the damn land in 1841.

This fact is in dispute which is why the Natives are protesting. As I am sure many are aware Indains can only sell their land to the Crown, I don't know when this stipulation first came into force but, I think it may have started with the Royal Proclamation of 1763 which would make the 1841 sale invalid.

As for the question of money going to corrupt band officials and "transfer payments" being the root of native poverty. Something must be done to stop the corruption amongst too many band officials. Chretien and Bob Nault tried to institute the First nations Governance Act, which in my opinion would have been a good first step. I am afraid that the Crown is somewhat hamstrung to do much about this issue as governance is viewed as an internal band matter. It is their own affairs after all. One of the problem is the relative size of these communities we are dealing with. I believe the average population of a reserve is roughly 600 people and so you can imagine family and clan play a large role in the internal politics of these communities and unfortunately lead to nepotism and corruption. Another problem is the lack of skilled accountants, lawyer, managers etc... in these communities, it is not very hard to disguise illegal activities when you're the only one in town who can read a ledger. I don't pretend to know the solution to the problem. I believe that currently bands are audited once a yr. by Indian Affairs whether this has been successful in helping to stop corruption I don't know. It seems to me that so long as Natives live in small isolated communities nepotism will always be a problem and those who "are the chief's or band council's favourites" will get the choice jobs. Quite frankly I don't see how you can get around that problem unless you take away all their autonomy which i don't think would be a very good idea.

Johnny Utah wrote:

Would you agree Natives in Canada have been kept down by always having to depend on the Federal Government their entire lives one way or another? The fact they know every year they will receieve at least 7 Billion a year gives them no drive to better themselves because they can always depend on the Federal Government and in doing that it has hurt them.

I don't think the way we have treated First Nations people have made their lives any easier. It is all well and good to say that NOW we give them 7 billion plus a year (which is a very conservatoive estimate I may add) then forget about the systemic racism of the past three centuries. Even today racism still persists and I can't imagine what it was like 50 years ago trying to get a job if you were aboriginal, quite frankly some occupations must have been simply closed. I don't really want to bring up Residential Schools but, there is another legacy of our ignominious past. To be blunt Residential Schools destroyed one perhaps two generations of Aboriginal parents, how were "graduates" of these institutions supposed to gain child raising skills when they were never raised by their parents?

In any case 7 billion or whatever the correct number may be is peanuts compared to the benefits we all get from this land. The Canadian economy is 1Trillion plus $US per year so 7 billion represents roughly .6 of one percent of our total economy. That is pretty cheap rent I say. Keep in mind that aboriginals are almost 3% of Canada's population (though I think that includes Metis, Inuit, status and non-status Indians) and the 7 billion does not include all the other social services, policing, highway construction etc... which Canadians receive, rather, it only represents the budget of Indian Affairs and various transfer from them.

As for the idea that Indians have no drive to better themselves and this is due to government handouts. I think you're absolutely right as I am sure would most Natives. They well recognise that dependence is not an honourable occupation. This is why land claim resolution is so important; in order for First Nations to possess the capital and drive to improve their economic lot. The old saying that "it takes money to make money" is apt in my opinion and previously it was pretty tough if you were Aboriginal to log in your traditional territory or fish etc...you had to go to the cities where racism was rife. Of course if you didn't what could you do? Most reserve or bands are located in isolated areas and if you ahve no right to natural resources and the only profittable economic industry in the area is natural resource extraction your up s--- creek if you get my drift now aren't you?

As for these criminal or illegal activities now taking place. It is hard to know where to stand. it is all very good to say that one should follow the proper precedures and wait until land claims are resolved etc... The problem being of course that land claims take decades to resolve and in this particular instance the land would have been inhabited for perhaps decades, all of which is pretty useless if you don't want your land occupied. Fundamentally, neither Ottawa, the provinces nor First Nations are putting forth reasonable compromises to this common problem but, all are fighting tooth and nail to get the biggest slice of the pie. The Crown, federal and provincial, must be magnaminious and generous, but, First Nations also must get off their high horse and accept the geo-political realities of this country. I know it sounds mean but, they lost! However, they still refuse to recognise what is an all too obvious reality. I have heard all too often that they want to negotiate Nation to Nation and they want the rights benefits and priveledges thereof; unfortunately, Canadians will only give First Nations the prerogatives of municipal govenment maybe a little more and a small share of their traditional territory. Perhaps it is a raw deal but, the alternative is worse and unless First Nations want to wait another hundred years they should accept the compromises-as should both provincial and federal governments.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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zoofer said:
(The joys of multicult! :roll: )

Yeah, had our ancestors stayed in Europe, there'd be no multicult. I'm sure every native thinks the same as you, except looking at YOU while thinking it. :wink:
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Retired_Can_Soldier said:
While I have no issue with righting a wrong imposed on the Native people of Canada I am aghast that no one is willing to ask one question. "When will the debt be paid? "Our childrens generation? Our great Grandchildren? Never?
When?

Food for thought.
M

When the original agreements are fulfilled? Ah, nothing like keeping a promise. :)
 

quinton

Electoral Member
Jan 20, 2006
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They shouldn't be constructing new housing developments in the first place.

Southern Ontario is already way overpopulated.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: Hundreds of Natives assert their land claim rights

iamcanadian said:
Retired_Can_Soldier said:
Colpy, don't believe everything you see or hear in the media.

Your are right on this point. Look at the two storys I posted about another protest over government acts and see the spins the paid media put on it, obvioulsy at the behest of local governments:

Read This Link:
http://www.canadiancontent.net/en/j...l_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News


Then This Link
http://www.northpeel.com/br/orangeville/news/story/3443495p-3980420c.html
This is what our media does with news that is critical of government activities. So don't trust anything you read in the media about what the government did or is doing.


If there are two sides to a story. One side being advanced by private citizens and the other side being advanced by Government and Government Administrators, The most likely correct side is that of the Private Citizen.

The facts advanced by paid media and the Government are almost alway twisted half truths to avance the Government Administrators' possition.

Government Administration is corrupted by its absolute power and lack of personal accountability.

Private Citizens who stand up for a position do not do it on a whim. They personally sufer and sacrifice to address their issue. The Government Administrators are taking their position as part of the JOBS and if they are not working on advancing their possition then they are working on advancing some other possition. They have nothing personally at stake.

On the issue of Calediania (and Caledon) and anytime there is an adversarial situation the Government Administrators are the ones that are in the wrong.