How will Stephen Harper Spank Danny Williams over that "ABC" thing???

[Avro]

And if you were right (which you are not) it would have been the liberals who were doing so. No chance of that. The NEP devastated the industry for years. It's a fact, look it up.

I am right, look it up.

The cons are still funneling money into the industry like the Libs before them, does that then make it right? Stop be so ideological.:roll:

 

[Mulk]

So, coming form Alberta you can understand his anger especially when the PM promised Danny to his face that he wouldn't do it.

Williams is the premier of his province, democratically elected by the people for whom he is protecting. If Harper doesn't like it he can go f himself and I would that any sane Canadian would stand up to hi if he were to punish NFLD for not voting him in any seats.

So a political decision is irreversible if it makes no sense? Resource money is part Alberta's contribution to the rest of the country, why not Newfoundlands?

 

[Avro]

So a political decision is irreversible if it makes no sense? Resource money is part Alberta's contribution to the rest of the country, why not Newfoundlands?

You didn't listen to what I said, the PM made a promise....he broke it, I never said the wealth shouldn't be spread out.

I understand why Danny was upset but I don't agree with his tactics and I certainly don't think the PM should punish NFLD. He won't anyways, he will troll them for votes and throw money and promises at them like a good little neo-con.:roll:

 

[Mulk]

I am right, look it up.

The cons are still funneling money into the industry like the Libs before them, does that then make it right? Stop be so ideological.:roll:

In what respect is the government "funneling" money into the oil industry? The oil companies (who pay taxes on income) pay the provincial governments for the right to exploit the resources, they hire service companies to perform the work (they pay taxes), the service companies employ people (who pay taxes) to perform the work. These employees buy houses (taxed) and vehicles (taxed) which consume fuel (taxed) and clothes and food (taxed).

In what way is the Federal Government funneling money INTO the oil companies?

 

[Mulk]

You didn't listen to what I said, the PM made a promise....he broke it, I never said the wealth shouldn't be spread out.

I understand why Danny was upset but I don't agree with his tactics and I certainly don't think the PM should punish NFLD. He won't anyways, he will troll them for votes and throw money and promises at them like a good little neo-con.:roll:

You don't think a Liberal government (or NDP for that matter) would do the same?

 

[Avro]

You don't think a Liberal government (or NDP for that matter) would do the same?

Maybe, but they didn't.

 

[Mulk]

Maybe, but they didn't.

Nor have the conservatives.

 

[gerryh]

In years past when the Liberals were in government, Alberta was left out. Hell Trudeau raped and pillaged us (NEP). Yeah, it's happened before.

Which is how NL feels about what the feds are doing to them....yet....you seem to feel it's ok for NL but not ALberta...... would that be because 1: it's NOT Alberta this time and 2: It's the con's this time and not the Lib's.

 

[Avro]

Nor have the conservatives.

Umm, yeah they did.

Thats why Danny was upset.....were you not listening?

 

[Mulk]

Which is how NL feels about what the feds are doing to them....yet....you seem to feel it's ok for NL but not ALberta...... would that be because 1: it's NOT Alberta this time and 2: It's the con's this time and not the Lib's.

It's not quite the same Gerry. The NEP was all about the Federal government directly taxing the oil revenues. Newfoundland is now getting richer than they were before due to oil & gas royalties. The Federal Govt. is not taxing the resources as the NEP proposed to do, instead they are considering the province of NL as a "have" province now, instead of a "have not". Sure this seems like a federal raid on the province, but it is actually quite fair.

 

[Mulk]

Umm, yeah they did.

Thats why Danny was upset.....were you not listening?

We were talking about the conservatives taking revenge on NL. This hasn't actually happened.

 

[gerryh]

Among other things it was the decision to include resources from Oil & Gas into equalization calculations. At the end of the day the Prime Minister has to do what is right for the country; if that included changes to the way that equalization is calculated despite that resulting from a region now being classified as have v.s. have not then so be it.

The PM won't do anything to get back at NL. I'm just pissed at Williams for his stepping into the fray.

It's not quite the same Gerry. The NEP was all about the Federal government directly taxing the oil revenues. Newfoundland is now getting richer than they were before due to oil & gas royalties. The Federal Govt. is not taxing the resources as the NEP proposed to do, instead they are considering the province of NL as a "have" province now, instead of a "have not". Sure this seems like a federal raid on the province, but it is actually quite fair.

Notice the words in red? They are YOUR words. Trudeau, the Prime Minister at the time, felt that the NEP was what was best for Canada. Now, how is it any different? Why were/are Albertans so pissed about the NEP yet NL'ers are not supposed to be?

 

[Colpy]

Notice the words in red? They are YOUR words. Trudeau, the Prime Minister at the time, felt that the NEP was what was best for Canada. Now, how is it any different? Why were/are Albertans so pissed about the NEP yet NL'ers are not supposed to be?

The difference was simple: Trudeau was stealing what rightfully and constitutionally belonged to Alberta, i.e. control of their resources...........Harper simply wanted to stop sending Federal money to Newfoundland as they became a rich province, Newfoundland has no right to Federal cash, constitutionally or otherwise........BIG difference.

 

[gerryh]

Ya see....I agreed with Trudeau and what he was trying to achieve with the NEP. I feel the resources SHOULD belong to all Canadians, not just the ones that are lucky enough to live where those resources happen to be. Independence from foreign energy imports would have been nice. Independence from american interference in Canadian energy policy would have been nice. Lower energy costs for Canadians because it comes from Canadian resources would have been nice. Instead, we pay inflated prices to line the pockets of the multi nationals.

 

[scratch]

Ya see....I agreed with Trudeau and what he was trying to achieve with the NEP. I feel the resources SHOULD belong to all Canadians, not just the ones that are lucky enough to live where those resources happen to be. Independence from foreign energy imports would have been nice. Independence from american interference in Canadian energy policy would have been nice. Lower energy costs for Canadians because it comes from Canadian resources would have been nice. Instead, we pay inflated prices to line the pockets of the multi nationals.

gerry,
C'est la vie!

 

[Mulk]

The difference was simple: Trudeau was stealing what rightfully and constitutionally belonged to Alberta, i.e. control of their resources...........Harper simply wanted to stop sending Federal money to Newfoundland as they became a rich province, Newfoundland has no right to Federal cash, constitutionally or otherwise........BIG difference.

EXACTLY!!

Newfoundland has become so used to Federal Cash flowing into the province that they just can't bear the thought of not getting it anymore, despite the fact that they don't need it like they used to.

 

[Mulk]

Ya see....I agreed with Trudeau and what he was trying to achieve with the NEP. I feel the resources SHOULD belong to all Canadians, not just the ones that are lucky enough to live where those resources happen to be. Independence from foreign energy imports would have been nice. Independence from american interference in Canadian energy policy would have been nice. Lower energy costs for Canadians because it comes from Canadian resources would have been nice. Instead, we pay inflated prices to line the pockets of the multi nationals.

Well the resources DO belong to the provinces and that's just the way it's set up. When Trudeau started rubbing his hands together and licking his lips he was seeing votes in Ontario not the betterment of Canada. Western Canada was expected to work hard get the resources out of the ground and pass along the cash to our poor Ontario cousins. Never mind the roads and health care of the province, never mind the colleges and schools here. We were expected pay up & shut up. We are crippled by our minimal representation in Parliament. Quebec & Ontario get to decide the fate of the country because they have the bulk of the seats and Alberta & Saskatchewan were expected to pony up to support whatever decisions are made.

History has shown that the west has been shut out of the rest of the country as far as decisions go, but they are more than happy to get our equalization payments and our income taxes, just not our input.

As far as the "multinationals" go, the pockets you refer to are shareholders. You are more than welcome to buy into their companies, and if you've got a pension or an RRSP you most likely are part owner in any number of energy companies. Western Canada is thriving in most part to the investment of these evil multinationals. I can even name several of them that employ thousands of people each:

Royal Dutch Shell
Total
BP
Taqa North
Exxon mobil (aka Esso/Imperial oil)
many many others

These evil multinationals employ tens of thousands of Canadians, who in turn buy houses and cars and clothes and food and the money gets spread around. The Dodge Grand Caravan I drive was built in Ontario by several people who benefitted by my employment in the energy industry. Those people have every right to take the money they earn and buy into the stock market and benefit again and again.

Do you think the energy industry should be nationalized / socialized? History has shown that social industry does not work, there is no reason to believe that it would work any better in Canada.

Sorry about the rant, but you kind of hit a nerve.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Mulk, if I'd figured out how to flick one of those "Greenies" at you, you'd have two and not
just the one right now. In my opinion, the NEP was really no different than the "Green Shift"
would have been and that sentiment is felt by almost all Western Canadians (except gerryh).

Those who didn't live out here and have the economic rug yoinked out from underneath them
(most, but not Colpy) see the NEP as a good thing for Canada and anything negative that
happened must have been due to the world economy and not the NEP. Those out here that
lost their jobs (and then homes and cars...and then maybe their marriages, etc) have a very
different opinion than those elsewhere that didn't directly suffer due to the NEP. That's just
the way it is, and no matter how much you try to convince them otherwise, it's a lost cause.

 

[Colpy]

Ya see....I agreed with Trudeau and what he was trying to achieve with the NEP. I feel the resources SHOULD belong to all Canadians, not just the ones that are lucky enough to live where those resources happen to be. Independence from foreign energy imports would have been nice. Independence from american interference in Canadian energy policy would have been nice. Lower energy costs for Canadians because it comes from Canadian resources would have been nice. Instead, we pay inflated prices to line the pockets of the multi nationals.

I wish resources belong to the people nationally as well........but I might as well wish the sky was a deep forest green with orange polka-dots. The constitution says otherwise, and there is about as much chance of changing that as there is chance that the sun will rise tomorrow.......on a sky of deep forest green with orange polka-dots.

Ya gotta deal with what you got, and the constitution should not be ignored.

And lower energy costs for fossil fuels means increased GHGs

 

[Ron in Regina]

Colpy, sorry about the typo on your name. I think faster than I can type.