Great Big Stupid Charter Shut up Shut up Shut up

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
I think a simple solution could be the following:

If the police violated a person's charter rights, then they get charged for that, but it doesn't negate the evidence. This would provide the necessary balance to ensure that the police don't violate the law, but that criminals can still be nabbed, creating a balance on both sides.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
1. Arbitrary Detention
a. Random Stops of Motorists
In a series of three cases (Dedman in 1985, Hufsky in 1988, and Ladouceur in May 1990) the Supreme Court of Canada pronounced on the constitutionality of police random stopping of motorists. In Dedman, Mr. Justice LeDain, for the majority of the Court, held that the 1980 Ontario R.I.D.E. program, in which police deployed checkpoints to screen impaired drivers, did not impinge a Charter right - even though the police did not have the statutory authority to conduct a random stop. The reason was that driving is a "licensed activity that is subject to regulation and control for the protection of life and property."

A rather broad brush to give the police the power of arbitrary detention. You need a license for almost everything nowadays, and hey, if safety is of concern why not just have eveyone ordered home by 10p.m.?

Mr. Justice LeDain also delivered the unanimous opinion of the Supreme Court in Hufsky, where the constitutionality of another Ontario police practice - spot check random stops - was reviewed. Unlike the R.I.D.E. program in Dedman, at issue in Hufsky was more than a search for impaired drivers. The random stops during these spot checks had a broad range of purposes, including checking for insurance papers and for the vehicle’s mechanical fitness. Mr. Justice LeDain said that the absence of police guidelines meant that the stops constituted arbitrary detention in violation of section 9 of the Charter, since the decision to stop a vehicle was made absolutely at the discretion of the police. That being said, however, his Lordship considered that the Charter limit imposed by the Highway Traffic Act was demonstrably justified in the interest of public safety. Again, for the Court, it was significant to note that driving could not be considered a fundamental right but was rather "a licensed activity subject to regulation and control."

Huh? Let's see, it violates the Charter, but it's allowed because again, it's a licensed activity and it's in the interest of public safety. Well, so is disarming us and sending us home by 10p.m.

In Ladouceur, at issue was the Ottawa police’s random stopping of a vehicle for essentially no reason and not as part of either an organized or spot check program. The Supreme Court split 5-4 in holding that this was an arbitrary stop that, following the Hufsky decision, was in violation of section 9 of the Charter. The stopping was not ruled to be unconstitutional, however, because it was a reasonable limit, demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. The dissenting four justices agreed in the result, although they felt that allowing such a practice went beyond what the police should be enabled to do and gave them an unlimited right to stop vehicles.

Well, at least 4 out of 5 believe in a modicum protection from the authorities.

In November 1992, the Supreme Court of Canada had occasion to review the extent of police powers over motorists detained at random check stops. In Mellenthin v. The Queen, the Supreme Court decided that visual inspection of vehicles with a flashlight was necessarily incidental to a check stop program carried out after dark. However, "a check stop does not and cannot constitute a general search warrant for searching every vehicle, driver and passenger that is pulled over. Unless there are reasonable and probable grounds for conducting the search, or drugs, alcohol or weapons are in plain view in the interior of the vehicle, the evidence flowing from such a search should not be admitted."

Having our protections from abuse by the authorities diminished will in no way enhance public safety, as it is, our charter isn't worth the paper its written on as pressure groups and authorities lobby to have it re-interpreted and judges gladly oblige. As laws start to favour more intervention by the state, especially with the benevolent sounding reason of "public safety and security", it is time to start worrying. Throw enough spaghetti at the wall and some is sure to stick.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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113
Vernon, B.C.
I think a simple solution could be the following:

If the police violated a person's charter rights, then they get charged for that, but it doesn't negate the evidence. This would provide the necessary balance to ensure that the police don't violate the law, but that criminals can still be nabbed, creating a balance on both sides.

Bingo Machjo, but that is just too sensible of a solution for ANY bureaucrat to handle or understand. Don't you just love these bastards bleeding you dry at the tax counter?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
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63
the whole point of throwing out evidence like this is an issue of the greater good. The evidence wasn't thrown out to protect some douchebag drug dealer.

It was to protect the normal people who are just trying to get to work when some powertripping bigot cop decides to pull them over, make them later for work and get them canned as they get searched on the side of the road while their coworkers commute past them.

As no charges are filed there (because there is no crime) there is no evidence to throw out.

When the cops do find something the evidence is thrown out, not to protect the guilty but to keep the cops from thinking random humiliation of innocent people is the easiest way to make busts.

if the case gets thrown out even if you do find something, there is no reason to do random searches.

If the case is only thrown out if you don't find something, well then the right is useless since it will never come into. The cop has the right stripsearch your college age daughter he thinks is hot for no suspicion.

The ruling isn't to protect the douchebag drug dealer. Its to protect the 50 innocent people the cop humiliated before he randomly found the drug dealer.

you don't hear much about the other peope who got humiliated in front of their neighbours, family and coworkers before the cop got lucky and made a bust.

I'd be all for arresting the police to a charter violation, but "who watches the watchmen"

The police murdered (and thats what it would be if they had be you and me enacting a citizens arrest) that polish immigrant in BC and they aren't in jail.

You really think thats an enforceable law? Who enforces it?
 
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Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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the whole point of throwing out evidence like this is an issue of the greater good. The evidence wasn't thrown out to protect some douchebag drug dealer.

It was to protect the normal people who are just trying to get to work when some powertripping bigot cop decides to pull them over, make them later for work and get them canned as they get searched on the side of the road while their coworkers commute past them.

As no charges are filed there (because there is no crime) there is no evidence to throw out.

When the cops do find something the evidence is thrown out, not to protect the guilty but to keep the cops from thinking random humiliation of innocent people is the easiest way to make busts.

if the case gets thrown out even if you do find something, there is no reason to do random searches.

If the case is only thrown out if you don't find something, well then the right is useless since it will never come into. The cop has the right stripsearch your college age daughter he thinks is hot for no suspicion.

The ruling isn't to protect the douchebag drug dealer. Its to protect the 50 innocent people the cop humiliated before he randomly found the drug dealer.

you don't hear much about the other peope who got humiliated in front of their neighbours, family and coworkers before the cop got lucky and made a bust.

But as mentioned above, if a police officer risked being charged for violating a person's rights, don't you think that alone would be enough to keep him in line?

Imagine the following scenario:

I'm a cop trying to nab a guy for, let's say, a ponzy scheme. So without a warrant I bug his entire house and car, and even his briefcase. I hire a hacker to get into his bank account to find out his spending habits, etc. I even break into his car and hide in the back seat every day for a month.

Finally, one day, I nab him in the act of scaming someone.

So what would the court do under the proposal above? No, it wouldn't let the criminal go scott free. Instead, it would throw both of us in the slammer; me for violating the law, and him for violating the law.

Now under that deal, do you honestly think I'd be so willing to break the law to nab the guy?

Here's the problem I see with the current system: since the cop doesn't go to jail for violating a person's rights, he therefore gets into the bad habit of violating them, and so the courts thrw the evidence out. As a result, both the bad cop and the criminal go scott free. In the proposal above, the exact oposite would happen: they'd both go to prison. Sounds fair enough to me.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
the whole point of throwing out evidence like this is an issue of the greater good. The evidence wasn't thrown out to protect some douchebag drug dealer.

It was to protect the normal people who are just trying to get to work when some powertripping bigot cop decides to pull them over, make them later for work and get them canned as they get searched on the side of the road while their coworkers commute past them.

As no charges are filed there (because there is no crime) there is no evidence to throw out.

When the cops do find something the evidence is thrown out, not to protect the guilty but to keep the cops from thinking random humiliation of innocent people is the easiest way to make busts.

if the case gets thrown out even if you do find something, there is no reason to do random searches.

If the case is only thrown out if you don't find something, well then the right is useless since it will never come into. The cop has the right stripsearch your college age daughter he thinks is hot for no suspicion.

The ruling isn't to protect the douchebag drug dealer. Its to protect the 50 innocent people the cop humiliated before he randomly found the drug dealer.

you don't hear much about the other peope who got humiliated in front of their neighbours, family and coworkers before the cop got lucky and made a bust.

I'd be all for arresting the police to a charter violation, but "who watches the watchmen"

The police murdered (and thats what it would be if they had be you and me enacting a citizens arrest) that polish immigrant in BC and they aren't in jail.

You really think thats an enforceable law? Who enforces it?

We have to agree to disagree on this. There isn't much wrong with routine spot checks, it's done all the time in the manufacturing industry and food inspection industry. what is wrong with it when it comes to people's well being and safety. I'm not talking about police harrassment where you are getting stopped every day as soon as you leave your house- I'm talking where 50 cars are being checked in a fair sized city or a police has a hunch that there is some law breaking happening. Cite me one case where a person got fired from his job as the result of a routine police check. Now if he was packing 50 kg. of crack he might get fired.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
I think a simple solution could be the following:

If the police violated a person's charter rights, then they get charged for that, but it doesn't negate the evidence. This would provide the necessary balance to ensure that the police don't violate the law, but that criminals can still be nabbed, creating a balance on both sides.

The simple solution that isn't so simple I'm afraid.

What do you be sentenced to for violation of Charter rights? Lose your job as a police officer? Civil damages along with punitive damages? Criminal record and time in federal prison? Not only that but what if the State benefits from said violation of Charter rights? More so what if the State is shown to have indirectly sanctioned the violation? Then the State as well is in the wrong and where does that go?

We have these rights for a reason.

As well let's not get confused between a perfectly reasonable roadside stop to check for registration and insurance, and searching the trunk, everyone in the car and their homes.

Police have rules to follow and procedure based upon those rules to ensure that violations of the Charter do not occur. Failing to follow that procedure means the case gets tossed out. And that is how checks and balances work.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
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Vancouver Island
The problem is that if you own a motor vehicle, or vessel, home, computer, power tools, firearms, have children or pets, you are likely breaking at least three laws per day, and if you don't have a lawyer on retainer and by your side, (or even if you do), you'll never know it. They may be city by-laws, provincial statutes, or in the case of firearms, criminal code offenses. I even know QC's who don't recognise the laws they or someone else are breaking. If police are allowed to go on fishing trips they're bound to find something if they cast their net wide enough, and they have done so in the past. The Charter is there to protect the rest of us from abuse as well.

I can usually break more than three before getting up in the morning. However there is a difference in degree. This guy had enough coke for a real party and how the cops found it is irrelevant. If he had murdered some one and the cops found a corpse in his car should he have gotten off because the search was illegal? Or maybe it was a pedophile with a little boy he just kidnapped. Should he be allowed to carry on?
Judges often lack common sense simply because they spend too much time with their noses in books and don't have to go out and work for a living or deal with normal people.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,337
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Vancouver Island
The simple solution that isn't so simple I'm afraid.

What do you be sentenced to for violation of Charter rights? Lose your job as a police officer? Civil damages along with punitive damages? Criminal record and time in federal prison? Not only that but what if the State benefits from said violation of Charter rights? More so what if the State is shown to have indirectly sanctioned the violation? Then the State as well is in the wrong and where does that go?

We have these rights for a reason.

As well let's not get confused between a perfectly reasonable roadside stop to check for registration and insurance, and searching the trunk, everyone in the car and their homes.

Police have rules to follow and procedure based upon those rules to ensure that violations of the Charter do not occur. Failing to follow that procedure means the case gets tossed out. And that is how checks and balances work.

Were you aware that other government agencies and even some private ones do not have to follow the same rules as the police ? The SPCA can enter your property and confiscate your animals just on an anonymous complaint. As can social services with your kids. A bailiff can come and take your private property without a warrant even when you are not home. The fire arms registry can come into your home at any time just to see if you are storing your guns and amo according to the most recent update in their rules. And you are concerned about how the police catch coke dealers?
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
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Leiden, the Netherlands
We have to agree to disagree on this. There isn't much wrong with routine spot checks, it's done all the time in the manufacturing industry and food inspection industry. what is wrong with it when it comes to people's well being and safety. I'm not talking about police harrassment where you are getting stopped every day as soon as you leave your house- I'm talking where 50 cars are being checked in a fair sized city or a police has a hunch that there is some law breaking happening. Cite me one case where a person got fired from his job as the result of a routine police check. Now if he was packing 50 kg. of crack he might get fired.

Setting up an actual checkpoint where every single vehicle is stopped and the registration checked (it takes 3 seconds) is one thing. Up and deciding to pull somebody over is quite something else. Random routine vs. random.

The reason that the individual was pulled over in the first place was because the cop was a rookie and made a mistake. When he realized his mistake, he could have stopped, but he didn't want to embarass himself. Then he decides to search the car without warrant on top of that.

As for having a hunch, one has a very reasonable expectation that at any given time in a sufficiently large high school, somebody is carrying around drugs. This doesn't mean that a police officer can come in and search everybody's locker and bags in an uncoordinated, untargeted fashion. It has happened before, however.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
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48
Leiden, the Netherlands
Were you aware that other government agencies and even some private ones do not have to follow the same rules as the police ? The SPCA can enter your property and confiscate your animals just on an anonymous complaint. As can social services with your kids. A bailiff can come and take your private property without a warrant even when you are not home. The fire arms registry can come into your home at any time just to see if you are storing your guns and amo according to the most recent update in their rules. And you are concerned about how the police catch coke dealers?

No, they cannot. Feel free to peruse our legislation looking for these nonexistent powers however.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
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Vernon, B.C.
"As for having a hunch, one has a very reasonable expectation that at any given time in a sufficiently large high school, somebody is carrying around drugs. This doesn't mean that a police officer can come in and search everybody's locker and bags in an uncoordinated, untargeted fashion. It has happened before, however."

That might not be such a bad idea. There is nothing wrong with confiscating illegal drugs from teenagers- that is like destroying the embryo before the monster appears.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
And sometimes there is mercy in apparent tyranny. I can imagine a person dealt with harshly by the legal system at a young age for drug possession later looking back on it with appreciation.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
And sometimes there is mercy in apparent tyranny. I can imagine a person dealt with harshly by the legal system at a young age for drug possession later looking back on it with appreciation.

That's one of the problems these days - you don't dare punish a kid unless there is at least 110% certainty of his/her guilt. When we were kids if there was a 55% certainty we probably got a licking, but we also knew there was a 60% certainty of committing some nefarious mischief without getting caught. It's what you call taking your lumps and not whining about it. One day you are the dog, the next day you are the hydrant.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,337
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Vancouver Island
O.K. let's say laws found in the criminal code which involve the well being and safety of others . I know there is still a law on the books in Winnipeg whereby it is illegal to carry water in open bucks on the street between the months of November and April..................:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Uh JLM I think that is a physical law since it is usually about-40 in Winterpeg at that time.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Uh JLM I think that is a physical law since it is usually about-40 in Winterpeg at that time.

Absolutely - it made perfect sense at the time of enactment. Now there are alternate vessels for packing water called "pipes".
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
23,220
8,058
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
No, they cannot. Feel free to peruse our legislation looking for these nonexistent powers however.


Actually they can and do.


I can only speak for that which I'm familiar with, and that's the Bailiff/Sheriff
end of things (seizure with/without a warrant). You're both right, or wrong,
depending on the jurisdiction being discussed. Different rules in different
provinces in the same country. Different rules on Federal & non-Federal
land in the same province too. What works (is legal) in a farm yard beside
an Indian Reservation, doesn't fly on the Indian Reservation itself....

I have a weird background. For the better part of two decades, I was a
second-party collection agent (third is the guy working for a collection agency
who calls you with respect to a bill owed between yourself and a separate
company). I would work directly for a company that you'd owe $$$ to, and I
would arrive on your doorstep in a cube truck. I don't do that any longer.

I ranged across north-western Manitoba, all of Saskatchewan, and into the
eastern portion of Alberta. Very different rules depending on where you are.
So again, you're both right, or wrong, depending where in Canada (& not
Canada as a whole) you're discussing.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
I can only speak for that which I'm familiar with, and that's the Bailiff/Sheriff
end of things (seizure with/without a warrant). You're both right, or wrong,
depending on the jurisdiction being discussed. Different rules in different
provinces in the same country. Different rules on Federal & non-Federal
land in the same province too. What works (is legal) in a farm yard beside
an Indian Reservation, doesn't fly on the Indian Reservation itself....

I have a weird background. For the better part of two decades, I was a
second-party collection agent (third is the guy working for a collection agency
who calls you with respect to a bill owed between yourself and a separate
company). I would work directly for a company that you'd owe $$$ to, and I
would arrive on your doorstep in a cube truck. I don't do that any longer.

I ranged across north-western Manitoba, all of Saskatchewan, and into the
eastern portion of Alberta. Very different rules depending on where you are.
So again, you're both right, or wrong, depending where in Canada (& not
Canada as a whole) you're discussing.

I probably should have been more specific. I was referring to the fact that child services and the spca need more than an anonymous phone call to enter your home without permission.

My bad.