Feds green light naked scanners

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
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Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Not through Nunavut, but I've flown an them a lot, I had no complaints, other than it was a SAAB. The HS748 would have been worse, been on those too but with a different company.

Their fine untill you hit nunavut,then it's every man for himself and if you do see your bags they are either getting thrown into the terminal or being whisked away to far off lands for weeks.
Customer service rep is in Newfoundland.:-|

Their the only commercial game in that part though so theres not much you can do.
Their excellent at dropping you off somewhere at -50 without your gear.:roll:
The saabs a bit loud and not as fast as the beechcraft 1900 but at least it has a shi**er.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
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Screening is the least evasive, patting someone down is much more evasive. You want to fly, play by the rules. Don't like the rules, simply don't fly. Better a false alarm than a jock bomb. We lost political correctness when the terrorist began random blowing up of aircraft.
Evasive or invasive?
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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I think with or without the sceening a plane is probably about as safe of a place as anywhere to be. You could just as easily get blown up in a church, a shopping mall, a casino, a school or in your own house.
Only if you are in Iraq or Afghanistan. The terrorist focus there seems to be everywhere except planes. Here it is different. They seem to like focusing on buildings and aircraft.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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Yup, but paranoia pays. There's big buck in them thar screening machines and added boarding costs as more and more people need to take care of your "security".
Like I heard on the radio one day by some guy who sounded like an evangelist, "How wonderful it is that Canadians are so willing to give up freedom for a little security!" Made me want to shoot my radio. It is why I don't have a radio or a TV anymore. I tell ya, I have never felt so secure as I do now, since I stopped listening to all that fear mongering.
You want security? You sacrifice liberty for it.
You tend to stay away from bears when you're in the bush, right? So you've sacrificed your ability to go where they are in order to be safe. It's a trade off.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Mountain Veiw County
Like I heard on the radio one day by some guy who sounded like an evangelist, "How wonderful it is that Canadians are so willing to give up freedom for a little security!" Made me want to shoot my radio. It is why I don't have a radio or a TV anymore. I tell ya, I have never felt so secure as I do now, since I stopped listening to all that fear mongering.

Cliffy, excuse me if I'm a bit thick here, but I just want to be sure; you wanted to shoot your radio because this guy was being sarcastic and and you thought it is realy wonderful, (which doesn't sound like you)? Or he was being sincere and you though he was a moron (which sounds more like you)? In any case, leave out the "How wonderful it is" and he is absolutely correct, and not just about Canadians, but about a large portion of the populations of otherwise free countries. Those who give up their liberties for the security of the government are sure to become slaves of it. This is the way tyrrany has conquered freedom in every case throughout history.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
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Mountain Veiw County
You want to fly, play by the rules. Don't like the rules, simply don't fly. Better a false alarm than a jock bomb. We lost political correctness when the terrorist began random blowing up of aircraft.

If you knew the mindset and mentality behind the making of the rules you might change your mind, they are 90% (or more) optics, like feeling safe as opposed to being safe. If we had lost political correctness we would be watching, or scrutinizing more carefully, people who may be suspect without the fear of them crying "discrimination", (not that they wouldn't, we just wouldn't fear it). Random screening of anyone and everyone without discrimination again has the law of large numbers working against the security folks. The Israelis lost political correctness when their airplanes were the primary targets in the '70's and 80's, they armed their pilots and put armed personnel in the cabin, to deal with any whack job who made it past their highly trained scrutineers. You want to fly safe, fly El Al, they've got a pretty good record considering the threat level they're under.
 

barney

Electoral Member
Aug 1, 2007
336
9
18
We have to be reactive in this matter, we can’t be proactive. We can only respond to threats as they arise.

9/11 could have been prevented had the cockpit door of the aircraft been...wait for it...LOCKED SHUT. The terrorists could've been wielding ****ing great-white-hunter-cutting-through-thick-ass-jungle-sized machetes and it wouldn't have made any difference; they would've been stuck in the cabin getting the **** kicked out of them by the passengers. Proactive? A little common sense should suffice.

If I may paraphrase an episode of Seinfield: "The standard airliner cockpit door lock can effectively prevent a terrorist from entering and taking over the cockpit. It does however have one fatal flaw...THE DOOR MUST BE CLOSED!!!"

Limiting yourself to reactive is like saying you have to get hit by a car at least once before you know to check for traffic before crossing the road.

If we try to imagine what kind of threat the terrorist will pose in the future and try to take preemptive action, there are several problems associated with that. For one, it will be very difficult to justify spending millions or billions of dollars on some preventive technology when there isn’t a threat, people won’t go for it. Now that there has been a terrorist attempt, people will support the introduction of body scanners, but before the terrorist attempt, the support for body scanners was a lot less.

What's so hard about imagining a bunch of guys with box-cutters making a mad dash for the cockpit?

Security experts couldn't predict a guy on a terrorist watch-list putting explosive in his waistband?

People not supporting new measures isn't really a big factor; people want to be safe and if you can objectively show that there is a threat and justify the cost as proportional to that threat, then people will usually go along with it (no fear mongering needed).

As someone else said before, much of our airline security is for the most part designed to make the passenger feel safe, not as a truly effective means of preventing an attack.

The Israeli airline, El Al has the most effective security measures to-date and even makes use of missile countermeasures to protect the aircraft from external threats. If you really care about passenger security, use that airline as an example. Otherwise it's just going to filter out the occasional lunatic but little else.

That said, keeping planes safe from attack should be a walk-in-the-park here in Canada. Instead, it's a fiasco--fortunately there's not really much of a real threat so airline security can afford to be pathetically inept here.

The problem isn't the occasional would-be terrorist, the problem is governmental incompetence/negligence (i.e. inability/unwillingness to impose strict but appropriate regulations on airlines and airports).

We can only be reactive. It is an unending game. Terrorists come up with some threat, in response governments round the world take action, then terrorists think up a way of circumventing those measures, in response to that, governments take further measures and so on.

Sure it's just like the idea of a nuclear missile shield; there's always going to be a better missile that can make it through. But you can certainly take step to stay ahead of the game and be ready to act when **** happens.

I don't like the idea of using x-rays, even at low levels but the backscatter system is more effective than padding down (and strip-searching people is really time-consuming as well as being humiliating to passengers). Puffers also work but can be bypassed if the terrorist is careful about it.

Ultimately, they're capable of just surgically implanting the device and that won't be picked up by anything other than ultrasound or medical-level x-ray (assuming they use materials the x-ray can pick up). Easier to just manually check for scarring from recent surgery (i.e. partial strip-search). Interrogatory methods (e.g. interviewing each passenger) also can be bypassed via conditioning to prevent unconscious microexpressions. (Granted, this is way more sophisticated than what your typical bomber is capable of.)

Best way to avoid terrorism IMO is to not invite it. How about starting by not supporting the world's worst perpetrator of international acts of aggression, much of which is presently being directed at already dirt-poor Arab-speaking countries? (Or did people think the two were unrelated--lemme guess, the aggression is in response to the terrorism. :roll: )

Even then, most of the Islamic world's population isn't in the business of blowing up airliners (let alone airliners here in Canada); aside from the occasional lunatic, this isn't a major threat.

Where very real threats to passengers are concerned, I'd be more worried about lax prevention measures against contagion in both Canadian airports and airliners.

You want security? You sacrifice liberty for it.
You tend to stay away from bears when you're in the bush, right? So you've sacrificed your ability to go where they are in order to be safe. It's a trade off.

Never realized the two had to be mutually exclusive.

Liberty is a subjective term. By this rationale, our whole society is just one big gulag because it has laws and thus limits action.

Here's the logic: laws punishing those who harm others limits your freedom to harm others. But your freedom would only be reduced if you wanted to harm others. Since you don't want to harm others, then your liberty is unaffected. (If that same law prevented you from harming others out of necessity in the process of defending yourself, then that would be of a loss of liberty.)

Security only affects liberty when the end can't justify the means, like when the counter-terrorism measures do more to inconvenience the passengers than the terrorist.

The line is drawn between necessary security and oppressive security. IMO what is happening in the USA is more of the latter. We haven't gotten that bad here...yet.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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"We have to be reactive in this matter, we can’t be proactive. We can only respond to threats as they arise. "- It's exactly like any other situation in life. Like locking your doors at night, having a functioning smoke alarm, tying up your shoe laces before you go anywhere- there's things you can do to minimize the risk, but having done all these things, there's still nothing to prevent a Sputnik from falling out of the sky and landing on your head.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
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48
Mountain Veiw County
"We have to be reactive in this matter, we can’t be proactive. We can only respond to threats as they arise. "- It's exactly like any other situation in life. Like locking your doors at night, having a functioning smoke alarm, tying up your shoe laces before you go anywhere- there's things you can do to minimize the risk, but having done all these things, there's still nothing to prevent a Sputnik from falling out of the sky and landing on your head.

Except being somewhere else ;-).
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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Never realized the two had to be mutually exclusive...... etc.
:roll:Apparently, you misunderstood what I said and didn't read the bit about avoiding the bear. IOW, in avoiding the bear, you just stay away from the area where the bear is in order to be secure. That doesn't mean you lose your liberty to wander about in ALL areas.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
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United States
The Israelis lost political correctness when their airplanes were the primary targets in the '70's and 80's, they armed their pilots and put armed personnel in the cabin, to deal with any whack job who made it past their highly trained scrutineers. You want to fly safe, fly El Al, they've got a pretty good record considering the threat level they're under.

Now when El Al is mentioned you do fly secure. In addition to doing as you said, a passenger must be ready for a full body search including body cavities. They also use full body scanners, have been for years. They do and use what ever it takes.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
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Mountain Veiw County
Now when El Al is mentioned you do fly secure. In addition to doing as you said, a passenger must be ready for a full body search including body cavities. They also use full body scanners, have been for years. They do and use what ever it takes.

I could be wrong, but last I heard, they don't use the scanners the US is demanding we use. In any case, they are more discriminatory rather than being random. Randomness has the appearance of being fair in our PC world, it may act as a bit of a deterance, but not very effective for detection.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
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Mountain Veiw County
:roll:Apparently, you misunderstood what I said and didn't read the bit about avoiding the bear. IOW, in avoiding the bear, you just stay away from the area where the bear is in order to be secure. That doesn't mean you lose your liberty to wander about in ALL areas.

I feel very insecure in national parks where you cannot wander through bear country armed, so I avoid parks.;-) I never go camping without a shootin' iron or three.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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I feel very insecure in national parks where you cannot wander through bear country armed, so I avoid parks.;-) I never go camping without a shootin' iron or three.
wow I go walking around in the bush without even having pepperspray. Our usual camping trip supplies are sleeping gear, shelter, cooking gear, and fishing gear. You stay away from here, please. You'd scare our critters. :( Use your arms for terrorists. :D
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,678
11,560
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Low Earth Orbit
Somebody ought to book that John Baird guy as a circus sideshow act.

He can see into the future by at least two months.