Father charged in son's spanking.

[AnnaG]

Les swatted one of the girls bottoms once (not even hard enough to make her fall over). She was 3 and was wearing a diaper so there's no way it hurt physically. He did it to get her attention and it did the job. Then he explained the situation. We always explained the situation. Clapping loudly used to be great to get their attention.
Sometimes not reacting to a situation worked. Sometimes it did, but when we did react, it was not with anger. All situations are different as are all kids and both positive and negative reinforcements can be used.
I can't comment much on the news article, but I think a few parents go overboard and I think the gov't and nosy busybodies also go overboard concerning others' uses of punishment and discipline.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That method works good on 'animals', children are much more intelligent, but even a good dog trainer can get
success without physical punishment. I have trained dogs for many years,
have seen both methods, and I would never hit my dog, I can teach the dog
with much more patience and intelligence than that.

You make a very good point here, talloola. If that man had treated his dog like he treated his child, if he had whacked his dog in public with excessive force, there would have been a general condemnation, I don’t think anybody would have said that he has the right to beat his dog anyway he wanted.

Apparently it is not permissible to beat a dog, but a child is fair game.

 

[Unforgiven]

Unforgiven, so you agree with me that spanking is not the solution. That is really what we are discussing here. You don’t agree with my solution, you want some other solution. That is fine, as long as it is not spanking.

No, you're putting words in my mouth.

Spanking isn't the only solution. It is a tool in an array of tools to raise children.

Sure I know what I am talking about. Spanking can sometimes get out of control. Sometimes parents spank the child too hard, sometimes it gets out of control without their meaning to. I think at least some of the child abuse cases involve routine spanking which got out of control.

No you don't. You see I do know what I am talking about from years of experience. That also allows me to see through those who don't know what they are talking about. You for example. Bath water gets cold, no use throwing out the baby too.

Really unforgiven? Let us see. Then if you have an argument with your boss, your wife, or your colleague, you settle it with fists (might is right). If you go to a bar and get involved into an argument with somebody, you convert that into a brawl, with bottles, glasses flying all over the place (Al Bundy style). If a driver cuts you off, he has a compact car and you have an SUV, you ram into him (again, might makes right).

Yeah really. I know you don't like it but that's the way it is.
When I have an argument I settle it with words. If that doesn't work then I agree to disagree, failing that I get verbally abusive. Usually that's enough. In the case of a threat, if I take it seriously, then I render you unable to physically harm me.
Sadly the older I get the less endurance I have and so the less chance there is of you choosing to stop within the time I have to make you choose to stop or unable to continue. But you will stop before I do. At which point I will stop. Because it's the right thing to do.

You may live by such a philosophy, I find it abhorrent.

The fist cares not at all about you or your feelings.

I did not say ‘will grow up’, I said ‘may grow up’, there is a difference.

Stop back peddling. When you are wrong simply admit it, learn from the experience and move on.

I have brought up one son, he is a fine, upstanding young man (he just finished third year of medical school). I never laid a hand on him, I had to punish him all of 3 or 4 times during his childhood, and punishment was always in the form of withholding privileges, rather than spanking.

I think you make this up as you go along.

Sure I wasn’t there, but chances are that since the mom was at her wits’ end, she probably gave the child a couple of whacks and left it at that. Anything that is done out of anger usually does not lead to anything good.

Speculation at best. For all you know, the child understood why his mother reacted they way she did, felt remorse for his actions and has since become a model child.

No, if something hurts, you try to prevent the pain from occurring, you don’t necessarily find out the cause of it (especially a child doesn’t). If for instance, mom is quick to spank but dad isn’t, next time he will throw the tantrum when he goes out with both mom and dad, hoping that presence of dad will prevent mom from spanking, or he may throw a tantrum when he is alone with dad. Here the child is not convinced that throwing a tantrum is wrong, he just knows that it will lead to spanking if he is alone with mom.

As I said spanking is just an attention getter. You seem to be under the impression that a spanking is just beating a kid up and walking away leaving the kid to wonder what that was for. This is not what a spanking should be used for.

When a child is spanked, the emphasis is not on identifying the misbehavior and preventing it, the emphasis is on trying to get out of more pain, more spanking.

How would you know, you never spanked you kid so you say?

Perhaps not, but sometimes spanking can get out of hand, especially if the parent is really angry.

There is nothing that can't get out of hand. You're point is ridiculous.

Not if the follow through involves spanking.

See what I mean? You don't even know what I'm talking about and I have just written it down for you.

 

[Unforgiven]

That method works good on 'animals', children are much more intelligent, but even a good dog trainer can get
success without physical punishment. I have trained dogs for many years,
have seen both methods, and I would never hit my dog, I can teach the dog
with much more patience and intelligence than that.

You should never hit a dog or a child out of anger.

Any parent who feels satisfied, and that he/she has does a good job after

inflicting 'pain' on their child, needs their head examined, but, if a parent
looses their temper, 'rarely', and does wack the kid, then feels awful, and
a big conversation takes place between the two afterward, then that parent
is remorseful, there is hope, and the child will realize that the parent
is not a violent person, and really doesn't 'wan't to hit him/her, and in that
case the child could learn something from that occurance, and remember how
unhappy they both were, and try to improve behavior.

As I said a spanking is an attention getter. Kids and dogs aren't the same and so while there may be a few simalarities in teaching both, they really require different methods.

You're building a strawman argument here. No one has said they support what you posted as being wrong. If you want to challenge my point I will be glad to stand up for them. But don't make something up assign it to me and go about refuting it.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Spanking isn't the only solution. It is a tool in an array of tools to raise children.

That is where we disagree, unforgiven. Spanking isn’t any solution.

No you don't. You see I do know what I am talking about from years of experience. That also allows me to see through those who don't know what they are talking about. You for example. Bath water gets cold, no use throwing out the baby too.

In no way have you refuted the point I made, unforgiven. Spanking can get out of hand, can lead to child abuse.

When I have an argument I settle it with words. If that doesn't work then I agree to disagree, failing that I get verbally abusive. Usually that's enough. In the case of a threat, if I take it seriously, then I render you unable to physically harm me.

If you are so highly strung, highly stressed out, ready to pick a fight at the drop of a pin, I for one am glad I don’t know you personally. You probably would have been quite at home in the Wild West, where they shot from the hip first, asked questions later. No wonder you are such a fan of George Bush.

The fist cares not at all about you or your feelings.

Indeed, and you would use fist on anybody who disagrees with you, your boss, your wife, your friend? What a dreary, pathetic way to live. Well, I assume you have heard the saying, he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

I did not say ‘will grow up’, I said ‘may grow up’, there is a difference. - SJP

Stop back peddling. When you are wrong simply admit it, learn from the experience and move on. – unforgiven

There is no backpedaling, that is exactly what I said. Show me where I said otherwise.

I have brought up one son, he is a fine, upstanding young man (he just finished third year of medical school). I never laid a hand on him, I had to punish him all of 3 or 4 times during his childhood, and punishment was always in the form of withholding privileges, rather than spanking. - SJP


I think you make this up as you go along. – unforgiven

Indeed. I mentioned it three years ago (on Canada.com forum) that my son got admission to medical school, I was very proud of him. I could dig up the relevant post (the posts are still around), but I don’t think it is worth it. You probably will claim that I made it up at that time as well (so that I could throw it in your face now).

Speculation at best. For all you know, the child understood why his mother reacted they way she did, felt remorse for his actions and has since become a model child.

Really? I am speculating and you are telling the facts, truth, that is how it works, does it? Speculation on my part, perhaps, but an intelligent, educated guess.

As I said spanking is just an attention getter.

It is wrong even as an attention getter, there are better ways of getting attention.

When a child is spanked, the emphasis is not on identifying the misbehavior and preventing it, the emphasis is on trying to get out of more pain, more spanking. - SJP

How would you know, you never spanked you kid so you say? – unforgiven.

So what? One doesn’t have to sexually abuse children to know that it is wrong, the same with spanking.

Perhaps not, but sometimes spanking can get out of hand, especially if the parent is really angry. - SJP

There is nothing that can't get out of hand. You're point is ridiculous. – unforgiven

There is nothing ridiculous about this, unforgiven. There have been cases of spanking getting out of control and turning into child abuse. I am sure the child so abused won’t consider it ridiculous.

 

[taxslave]

There is nothing ridiculous about this, unforgiven. There have been cases of spanking getting out of control and turning into child abuse. I am sure the child so abused won’t consider it ridiculous.
quick reply | quote this | multiple:
OTH there are examples out there where kids were never disciplined and turned out to be perfect little assholes. Perhaps a few good spankings when they were young would have saved taxpayers a bundle of money.

 

[AnnaG]

Who is to say spanking is wrong? Even though we didn't spank our kids, we are not experts on the issue. Les was spanked as a kid and he ended up being a good person. Was that wrong? I think the instances of spanked people turning out bad is minimal and know-it-alls who really don't know it all blow the issue out of proportion.

 

[karrie]

Is it just my experience, or has anyone else found that the people who are most outspoken about spanking tend to have the most ill behaved kids? Sure, not on a level that you'd give kids a spanking for, but, entitled, arrogant, rude kids. (and no, I don't mean just people who don't spank, but, people who make a big show of not spanking).

 

[AnnaG]

The point behind admonishing kids is to teach them to be beneficial to themselves, family, friends, and the rest of humanity and doing harm to those people is not acceptable. Spanking a kid because she or he wants a bagel and cream cheese rather than corn flakes hurts no-one except the sensibilities of the twit who fundamentally sticks to a certain regimen for breakfast. However, the twit may have been using that as an example to the child that they should do as they are told. I doubt it, though.

 

[AnnaG]

Is it just my experience, or has anyone else found that the people who are most outspoken about spanking tend to have the most ill behaved kids? Sure, not on a level that you'd give kids a spanking for, but, entitled, arrogant, rude kids. (and no, I don't mean just people who don't spank, but, people who make a big show of not spanking).

It isn't just you, Karrie. It's a weird phenomenon that people rarely see their own kids as being as bad an anyone else's: "Spanking is bad because we don't do it. We are more tolerant and look how good our kids are" sort of idea.
The other weird phenomenon is, "Our kids are good kids so that makes us experts". lol They are partially right: it makes them experts at raising their own kids.

 

[karrie]

The other weird phenomenon is, "Our kids are good kids so that makes us experts". lol They are partially right: it makes them experts at raising their own kids.

lol... what I get a lot is parents grilling me on how I parent, because they see my daughter. "She's so perfect. She's so polite. She's so helpful. She's so considerate."

They seem a bit blind to the fact that she's an exception, and I'm still trying to figure out what we did right with her, so we can apply it to the youngest. lol.

It makes me nervous to tell them how I parent, because apparently it's only a 50/50 as to what you're gonna get. ;-)

I think frankly we give ourselves a bit too much credit in our hand in things. I don't feel my parents 'made' me who I am. I don't know many adults who do. And yet our current generations seem obsessed with what strikes me as a pop psychology idea that we are tailor making our children.

 

[talloola]

Tell me, is having the opposite opinion to someone who approves of spanking,
being outspoken. One can't 'sort' of disaprove of spanking, or think it's allright
but not allright.
One either approves or doesn't, and I 'could' say one who spanks their kids, has the
worst kids in the world, but that would be 'ignorant', there is so many different
aspects of paranting that has a big impact on the outcome of the child, and even
the best parents can have a kid that 'just' doesn't get it, and is not a good person.
Not the parents fault, no bodys fault.
There is a huge difference of 'levels' in spanking, so it is hard to make a accurate
summation of each case we hear about, unless we were there.

 

[karrie]

Tell me, is having the opposite opinion to someone who approves of spanking,
being outspoken. One can't 'sort' of disaprove of spanking, or think it's allright
but not allright.
One either approves or doesn't, and I 'could' say one who spanks their kids, has the
worst kids in the world, but that would be 'ignorant', there is so many different
aspects of paranting that has a big impact on the outcome of the child, and even
the best parents can have a kid that 'just' doesn't get it, and is not a good person.
Not the parents fault, no bodys fault.
There is a huge difference of 'levels' in spanking, so it is hard to make a accurate
summation of each case we hear about, unless we were there.

If you read my first post in the thread, that's exactly what I said. But, to address your first point... no... having an opinion that it's wrong isn't the same thing as making a big show of not doing it. I wish I could explain the difference in some of the people I know.

And yes, one can think it's a regrettable necessity talloola. Approval and disapproval all lumped into one. Like most things that come along with parenting, it's not a black and white for me... there's a lot of grey area.

 

[AnnaG]

lol... what I get a lot is parents grilling me on how I parent, because they see my daughter. "She's so perfect. She's so polite. She's so helpful. She's so considerate."

They seem a bit blind to the fact that she's an exception, and I'm still trying to figure out what we did right with her, so we can apply it to the youngest. lol.

We have one like that and the other is "fulla deeeevils" as my Mum would put it. They are both loveable and good but the youngest loves to play jokes and get shock-value. At 14 she came home from school one day with bright pink hair, for instance. She's an imp. lol

It makes me nervous to tell them how I parent, because apparently it's only a 50/50 as to what you're gonna get. ;-)

I think frankly we give ourselves a bit too much credit in our hand in things. I don't feel my parents 'made' me who I am. I don't know many adults who do. And yet our current generations seem obsessed with what strikes me as a pop psychology idea that we are tailor making our children.

That could very well be as it seems personaility depends upon genetics and environment, and environments aren't completely controllable by parents. There are variables such as school friends, neighborhood kids, other grownups such as grandparents, etc. lol

 

[karrie]

Yes there is. It's your point and now pretty much everything you said in this reply.
There is a case in the paper today about a walk through a park in Winnipeg turning into child abuse and attempted murder. Anything that is taken far too far is abusive. That is no excuse to stop walking, get rid of parks and no more children. Don't spank, that is entirely your option, but you have no right at all to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do with their own kids.

I've heard of bath time turning to abuse too as children are scoured instead of washed. Mealtime turning to abuse as children are forcefed. Timeouts turning to abuse as children are locked in their rooms without meals.

To ban discipline because some people take it too far is pretty hard. I much prefer our government's attempts to define what is reasonable and what is not, and to give people other tools to use.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

OTH there are examples out there where kids were never disciplined and turned out to be perfect little assholes. Perhaps a few good spankings when they were young would have saved taxpayers a bundle of money.

Indeed there are, taxslave, the reason being they were not properly parented. And the answer is not spanking (which may make the problem worse), but proper discipline, proper attention, proper love and proper parenting.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Is it just my experience, or has anyone else found that the people who are most outspoken about spanking tend to have the most ill behaved kids? Sure, not on a level that you'd give kids a spanking for, but, entitled, arrogant, rude kids. (and no, I don't mean just people who don't spank, but, people who make a big show of not spanking).

Karrie, we never spanked our son and he is anything but rude. He is doing well in medical school, is a well adjusted young man and has plenty of friends.

I think many people are still guided by the Biblical injunction spare the rod, spoil the child. Bible says so, it must be true. So it follows that anybody who doesn’t spank their children is spoiling them. After all Bible does say that anybody who doesn’t spank his children, hates them.

Well, it doesn’t follow that in practice. Most of the kids who have not been spanked grow up to be well adjusted, well behaved individuals. It is spanking in excess that can have harmful effect on children, not lack of spanking.

 

[Unforgiven]

I've heard of bath time turning to abuse too as children are scoured instead of washed. Mealtime turning to abuse as children are forcefed. Timeouts turning to abuse as children are locked in their rooms without meals.

To ban discipline because some people take it too far is pretty hard. I much prefer our government's attempts to define what is reasonable and what is not, and to give people other tools to use.

Exactly. I don't see discipline as punishment though. To us, discapline is getting up and making your bed, attending to your morning grooming and eating your breakfast in good time so that you are ready for school when it's time to leave.

Getting homework done after school so there is time for play and and goofing off.
To us punishment took the role of consequences before there were really any.

 

[DaSleeper]

I've heard of bath time turning to abuse too as children are scoured instead of washed. Mealtime turning to abuse as children are forcefed. Timeouts turning to abuse as children are locked in their rooms without meals.

To ban discipline because some people take it too far is pretty hard. I much prefer our government's attempts to define what is reasonable and what is not, and to give people other tools to use.

Right: spanking as any disciplinary action should not be given in anger...and if one parent disciplines a child, the other parent should be supportive of that discipline...I remember when my children were young and I would return from work and my wife had disciplined in some fashion and they would complain to me that it was too excessive....sometimes I would pretend to have a meeting with her....and if she figured that in the heat of the moment...eg. a week without T.V. was excessive...she would be the one cutting the sentence to two days or something...:smile:
To this day they remember waiting anxiously like prisoners waiting for a verdict....other times we would have a mock court......
Consistency is the key and starting at a young age to teach them who's the boss:lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Unforgiven, you did mention that you get verbally abusive when you get angry, I think you are losing it here. This will be my last response to you, I don’t want to be responsible for giving you a heart attack.

In no way have you refuted the point I made, unforgiven. Spanking can get out of hand, can lead to child abuse. – SJP

So can making a cup of tea. why do you feel tea is not an option? – unforgiven

Oh, so in your opinion spanking is as trivial as making a cup of tea is it? A very strange attitude. No wonder you approve of spanking so much, you probably are fond of tea. Does spanking give you the same feeling of pleasure as drinking a cup of tea?

If you are willing to stand and watch someone rape maim and kill others, even your own family and not raise a finger to stop them then you're no man.

So you are claiming that my family, my wife and my kids were raped, maimed and killed right in front of me? You are losing it my friend, that could very well be grounds for libel. And you know this, how? Did an angel tell you that? Or do you claim to know me personally?

I suggest you sit back, take a deep breath and try to calm down. Anybody who makes such asinine claims has totally lost it

No wonder you wife left you and took the kid.

Again, you know that, how? I thought my family was raped and killed in front of me, how can then she leave me? Was she resurrected? You have totally lost it, my friend. I can just see you at the computer, apoplectic, foaming at the mouth, thinking of slander after slander, one whopper after another.

I bet Daddy is a real man that wouldn't let his new wife get raped and beaten repeatedly. Is it that you are into watching that sort of thing?

I see, so now I also watched my new wife beaten and raped, did I? I feel sorry for you, unforgiven.

You just did. Did you even have a point to make here? All you've done thus far is act contrary and make things up.

Sure I did. The point I made was that there was no backpedaling on my part, and you have not demonstrated that there was any.

So you're also a chronic liar?

Again, you know this how? I have been married to the same woman for the past 33 years. My wife is a doctor and my son is in medical school. Believe it or not as you will.

At best your speculating.

Really? And you are stating the facts, no doubt? We are both speculating, but my speculation is based upon, evidence, upon logic, while yours is just a wild speculation, based upon your preconceived views.

Nope it's fantastic as an attention getter.

It is terrible as an attention getter, unforgiven.,

It never fails and when used correctly bring the desired result quickly and effectively.

It has the potential to turn beaten sons into wife abusers and beaten daughters into battered wives.

You would never know that though. You have never spanked this alleged son you have so you say.

Oh, here you do believe me, do you?

See your argument is so weak you have to tie it in with sexual abuse.

There are similarities, unforgiven. Excessive spanking is child abuse, which can be as bad as sexual abuse. Both have equally tragic consequences.

Anyway, as I said you have totally lost it. Anybody who makes such wild, asinine accusations, that I watched my wife and my family get raped, maimed and killed and then claims that I watched my second wife beaten and raped has totally lost it, in my opinion.

I know you said that you get verbally abusive when you get angry, but I had no idea you get so abusive. Anyway, I don’t want to be the cause for giving you apoplexy, stroke, heart attack etc, you are clearly a basket case.

We are done debating. Goodbye. Anyway, I am reporting your post as abusive post.