Father charged in son's spanking.

[SirJosephPorter]

We paid the lady, and quietly walked out of the restaurant, and stood just around the corner from the door, and in about 10 seconds, she came out the door calling my name, and was so happy to see me, thought she had been left behind, while she was rolling around on the floor. Didn't have that problem again.

Quite so, talloola, that is the proper way to deal with a tantrum, rather than give the child a couple of whacks. The child may perhaps pull the same stunt again once or twice. When he gets the same response, he will realize that he is not accomplishing anything by it and he will stop.

But the message he gets from this is a positive one, it tells him that he cannot get everything he wants in life. If he had been whacked every time he threw a tantrum, the message he would get is that it is OK to use violence to enforce one’s will. A positive message in one instance, a negative in the other.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

My Father didn't spare the rod (belt, boot, etc...) and I like to think I'm fairly
well rounded and mentally balanced. No Sociopathic tendencies and I don't
beat Cabbies over a twenty cent tip before I rob them of their fare.

As a Parent, I did what I had to do when I had to do it. My Son also seems
to be well rounded and mentally balanced. No Sociopathic tendencies and
he doesn't beat Cabbies over a twenty cent tip before he robs them of their
fare.

Ron, not every child who has been spanked will grow up to be violent or abusive. But many experts do feel that childhood violence can lead to violent behavior in the adulthood.

Your argument is similar to a smoker saying, Hell, I have been smoking for eighty years now, I am in perfect health, nothing has happened to me. Surely smoking cannot be bad for you.

Many experts think that it is counterproductive to spank a child, it can lead to violent behavior as an adult (or in a woman, to the battered woman syndrome). That doesn’t mean it will happen every time.

 

[Niflmir]

Just not enough information. Clearly governments have a responsibility to interfere with abusive parents, clearly they should not interfere with legitimate parenting. What was the case here?

No one but the people involved can say.

 

[Unforgiven]

Depends upon what you mean by ‘ignoring’, unforgiven. Ignoring a child when he is throwing a fit, a tantrum is a very good way of dealing with him. In fact, spanking him when he throws a fit tells him that throwing a fit is a surefire way of attracting attention. If a child cannot get good attention, he will try to get bad attention. Beating up the child when he is having a temper tantrum is totally counterproductive.

Ignoring a child when they are throwing a fit is a terrible way to parent. Parents know this. Spanking may not be the solution but this is not to say that there isn't a solution. Most often, from my experience, ending the outing right there and going home is the best reaction. Further, letting the child know that you are going to the store but they will not be coming along because of the tantrum they threw last time is the reason and that while there will be opportunities for them to accompany you to the store in the future, this isn't one of them is a good example of the proper response.

Pretending not to notice is little more than lying to the child. Puts the problem onto others needlessly and makes the whole place uncomfortable of everyone else who is shopping or working there.

Turning a spanking into beating up a child shows that you have no idea what it is your talking about. I bet you read a book once. No kids but a few books is that about right?

Indeed, that is the message a child does get when he/she is spanked. When he grows up, he may feel justified in enforcing his will by violence. When she grows up, she may think that if her spouse beats her up, that is a sure sign that he loves her (since her mom loved her and she beat her up).

And anywhere in the world, in any interaction with any other person will boil down to in the end, might makes right. Deal with it. Only abused and neglected children may grow up with a poor understanding of what violence is and what and when it is used. Jumping to the conclusion that a spanked child will grow up to be a masochist is beyond reasonable.

It doesn’t work that way, unforgiven. Usually the parent is too angry to explain anything. Do you think that the mom that juan mentioned sat her kid down and explained anything to him? Don’t you believe it. And anyway, children have a short attention span. All the child remembers is that he has been beaten, he probably won’t remember any accompanying explanation. What he does take from the episode is that might makes right.

Of course it works that way. You not having any practical experience in parenting to draw from reveals your ignorance. I wasn't there so I have no idea what the Mom said to the Child in #Juan's story, neither were you. Pain is an instinctual biochemical method nature uses to help people survive. If something hurts you find out why fast so as to prevent further pain. It's simple and it works.

You don't have to hit a child hard or be violent at all when spanking a child. The whole point is to get the child's attention. I have managed to refine that into a verbal sound that makes 99% of the people I have ever known, stop what they're doing and pay attention. All that is needed afterward is a clear explination of what I need them to do and a consistant follow through.

That right there is a tried and true method.

 

[taxslave]

It is this do gooder attitude like Sir Joe's that have allowed kids to miss behave so much. There is nothing wrong with spanking. It is called discipline and as long as it is applied consistently there is nothing wrong with it. Teachers should be allowed to spank kids as well.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

It is this do gooder attitude like Sir Joe's that have allowed kids to miss behave so much. There is nothing wrong with spanking. It is called discipline and as long as it is applied consistently there is nothing wrong with it. Teachers should be allowed to spank kids as well.

Taxslave, I believe it is illegal for teachers to spank the children in public schools. It may be permitted in private schools (especially Fundamentalist schools and Islamic Madrasaas).

And there is everything wrong with spanking. It gives the child a totally wrong lesson as to what the proper way is to settle a dispute. It tells the child that in life, in marriage, in child rearing, in interacting with colleagues, etc., might makes right. Now unforgiven may not have a problem with it, but I do (and so do many experts).

It is called discipline and as long as it is applied consistently there is nothing wrong with it.

It may be called discipline, but it is also a form of violence. Many experts these days say that it has harmful effect on children. Isaac Asimov had a favorite saying, 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.' That applies perfectly to spanking. Parents feel powerless, they feel incompetent, so they take the easy way out, of spanking,

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I will respond to you later, unforgiven, I have to go. This was just a hurried interlude.

 

[#juan]

Parenting is not easy, juan. It may have been just below the threshold of pain, but the mother must endure and teach the kid that such tantrums do not yield any result. I know that is the difficult thing to do, the easy way out is to give him one or two whacks.

My wife and I have raised two kids who are successful and have children of their own now and I don't think the occasional smack in the ass is a bad thing. Parenting is not easy and corporal punishment is just one of the tools available. One of the most important things in raising a child has to be consistency. Everything is so much easier if the kids know where the limits are.

 

[taxslave]

Taxslave, I believe it is illegal for teachers to spank the children in public schools. It may be permitted in private schools (especially Fundamentalist schools and Islamic Madrasaas).

And there is everything wrong with spanking. It gives the child a totally wrong lesson as to what the proper way is to settle a dispute. It tells the child that in life, in marriage, in child rearing, in interacting with colleagues, etc., might makes right. Now unforgiven may not have a problem with it, but I do (and so do many experts).

It is called discipline and as long as it is applied consistently there is nothing wrong with it.

It may be called discipline, but it is also a form of violence. Many experts these days say that it has harmful effect on children. Isaac Asimov had a favorite saying, 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.' That applies perfectly to spanking. Parents feel powerless, they feel incompetent, so they take the easy way out, of spanking,

You are right, teachers are not allowed to spank the little brats any more. This is just plain wrong. I have a lot of issues with teachers and our education system but teachers MUST be able to enforce their authority in the class room. We once had a neighbour who did not believe in spanking. She would threaten here kids with a consequence when they miss behaved. Unfortunately that never happened and as a result her brats were not permitted in any other peoples yards to play because they did not recognize either rules or authority.

 

[Unforgiven]

It is this do gooder attitude like Sir Joe's that have allowed kids to miss behave so much. There is nothing wrong with spanking. It is called discipline and as long as it is applied consistently there is nothing wrong with it. Teachers should be allowed to spank kids as well.

Punishment should not be confused with discipline.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

We once had a neighbour who did not believe in spanking. She would threaten here kids with a consequence when they miss behaved. Unfortunately that never happened and as a result her brats were not permitted in any other peoples yards to play because they did not recognize either rules or authority.

Taxslave, that is not proper parenting. Just because somebody does not spank does that mean that he/she is necessarily parenting properly.

You never threaten children with consequences, children should figure out what is acceptable behavior and what isn’t. If they misbehave, you don’t threaten them, but you hand out appropriate punishment (anything except spanking, of course).

Again, spanking is the easy way out, without spanking, one must be creative. I remember my son once misbehaved (during all of his childhood, I had to punish him may be 3 or 4 times, never spanking). A few days before that he had eaten bagel and cream cheese for the first time at our friends’ house. He liked it so much that he would eat it for breakfast every day.

As a punishment, I told him that he cannot have bagel and cream cheese, but must eat cereal for breakfast for three days. He thought that was a big punishment, he said so and it made a lasting impression on him.

Six months later he had gone off on bagel and cream cheese, and such a punishment would have been totally inappropriate. One has to be creative when giving out punishment. But not spanking does not mean that you don’t ever punish the children (as your neighbour evidently seemed to think).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

My wife and I have raised two kids who are successful and have children of their own now and I don't think the occasional smack in the ass is a bad thing. Parenting is not easy and corporal punishment is just one of the tools available. One of the most important things in raising a child has to be consistency. Everything is so much easier if the kids know where the limits are.

I am all for limits, juan, my son had strict limits placed on him. He had strict rules about homework (must be done first thing after school, then he could go play), talking to mom and dad (no rude language), interacting with others etc. But spanking is not the answer.

 

[#juan]

Taxslave, that is not proper parenting. Just because somebody does not spank does that mean that he/she is necessarily parenting properly.

You never threaten children with consequences, children should figure out what is acceptable behavior and what isn’t. If they misbehave, you don’t threaten them, but you hand out appropriate punishment (anything except spanking, of course).

Again, spanking is the easy way out, without spanking, one must be creative. I remember my son once misbehaved (during all of his childhood, I had to punish him may be 3 or 4 times, never spanking). A few days before that he had eaten bagel and cream cheese for the first time at our friends’ house. He liked it so much that he would eat it for breakfast every day.

As a punishment, I told him that he cannot have bagel and cream cheese, but must eat cereal for breakfast for three days. He thought that was a big punishment, he said so and it made a lasting impression on him.

Six months later he had gone off on bagel and cream cheese, and such a punishment would have been totally inappropriate. One has to be creative when giving out punishment. But not spanking does not mean that you don’t ever punish the children (as your neighbour evidently seemed to think).

The kid was eating a bagel and cream cheese and he was punished and given corn flakes or something? I would have thought the bagel and cheese was the better breakfast. Why couldn't the kid have the bagel?

 

[Colpy]

Taxslave, I believe it is illegal for teachers to spank the children in public schools. It may be permitted in private schools (especially Fundamentalist schools and Islamic Madrasaas).

And there is everything wrong with spanking. It gives the child a totally wrong lesson as to what the proper way is to settle a dispute. It tells the child that in life, in marriage, in child rearing, in interacting with colleagues, etc., might makes right. Now unforgiven may not have a problem with it, but I do (and so do many experts).

It is called discipline and as long as it is applied consistently there is nothing wrong with it.

It may be called discipline, but it is also a form of violence. Many experts these days say that it has harmful effect on children. Isaac Asimov had a favorite saying, 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.' That applies perfectly to spanking. Parents feel powerless, they feel incompetent, so they take the easy way out, of spanking,

Wrong again.

This would depend entirely on which province you live in. In New brunswick, teachers are permitted to act in exactly the same manner as a responsible parent. It is not illegal for teachers to use physical punishment.

However, many years ago the Dep't of Education decided that children could only be strapped with the parents' permission.....and at that point every teacher I knew abandoned the practise as it could suddenly not be applied evenly, nor immediately.... (permission had to be sought and granted)

But illegal???

No.

And, I might point out, LAW applies to all schools, private or public... :roll::roll::roll:

 

[karrie]

She didn't beat him. She smacked him quite hard on his backside twice. I also have to say that this kid was screaming at a volume that was just below the threshold of pain. Mommy was tired and she needed a break from this little monster.....So did everyone in the store.

Only the most self centred people leave their kids to scream and bother an entire store without lifting a finger to try to correct the behaviour. I can't handle people who parent that way. You have no right when heading out in public to let your kids disrupt everything around them if you can do something to stop it. And while at 8 or 10 years old, a stern talking to at the end of that aisle might have worked just as effectively, I assume parents know their kids better than I do until proven otherwise. To assume otherwise would be ridiculous.

 

[Colpy]

You are right, teachers are not allowed to spank the little brats any more. This is just plain wrong. I have a lot of issues with teachers and our education system but teachers MUST be able to enforce their authority in the class room. We once had a neighbour who did not believe in spanking. She would threaten here kids with a consequence when they miss behaved. Unfortunately that never happened and as a result her brats were not permitted in any other peoples yards to play because they did not recognize either rules or authority.

I am not necessarily against the banning of the strap in schools....but it needs to be replaced by a simple no tolerance policy for disruptive behaviour....in other words, if a kid not performing in school due to behaviour problems, he should be sent home....to STAY!

Now, when the government steps into the home to direct the proper raising of children.......they have far over-reached the parameters of their proper authority, IMHO...........unless, of course, there is lasting physical or psychological harm being done.........

Nothing focuses the mind of an unruly child like a little directly applied force.

 

[Colpy]

I am all for limits, juan, my son had strict limits placed on him. He had strict rules about homework (must be done first thing after school, then he could go play), talking to mom and dad (no rude language), interacting with others etc. But spanking is not the answer.

Spanking is not the answer for you.

I would never demand legislation that instructs you how to raise your children.

Perhaps one could expect the same deference and respect for a different strategy from your side of the debate????

I didn't think so.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Ignoring a child when they are throwing a fit is a terrible way to parent. Parents know this. Spanking may not be the solution but this is not to say that there isn't a solution.

Unforgiven, so you agree with me that spanking is not the solution. That is really what we are discussing here. You don’t agree with my solution, you want some other solution. That is fine, as long as it is not spanking.

Turning a spanking into beating up a child shows that you have no idea what it is your talking about. I bet you read a book once.

Sure I know what I am talking about. Spanking can sometimes get out of control. Sometimes parents spank the child too hard, sometimes it gets out of control without their meaning to. I think at least some of the child abuse cases involve routine spanking which got out of control.

And anywhere in the world, in any interaction with any other person will boil down to in the end, might makes right. Deal with it.

Really unforgiven? Let us see. Then if you have an argument with your boss, your wife, or your colleague, you settle it with fists (might is right). If you go to a bar and get involved into an argument with somebody, you convert that into a brawl, with bottles, glasses flying all over the place (Al Bundy style). If a driver cuts you off, he has a compact car and you have an SUV, you ram into him (again, might makes right).

You may live by such a philosophy, I find it abhorrent.

Jumping to the conclusion that a spanked child will grow up to be a masochist is beyond reasonable.

I did not say ‘will grow up’, I said ‘may grow up’, there is a difference.

Of course it works that way. You not having any practical experience in parenting to draw from reveals your ignorance.

I have brought up one son, he is a fine, upstanding young man (he just finished third year of medical school). I never laid a hand on him, I had to punish him all of 3 or 4 times during his childhood, and punishment was always in the form of withholding privileges, rather than spanking.

I wasn't there so I have no idea what the Mom said to the Child in #Juan's story, neither were you.

Sure I wasn’t there, but chances are that since the mom was at her wits’ end, she probably gave the child a couple of whacks and left it at that. Anything that is done out of anger usually does not lead to anything good.

If something hurts you find out why fast so as to prevent further pain. It's simple and it works.

No, if something hurts, you try to prevent the pain from occurring, you don’t necessarily find out the cause of it (especially a child doesn’t). If for instance, mom is quick to spank but dad isn’t, next time he will throw the tantrum when he goes out with both mom and dad, hoping that presence of dad will prevent mom from spanking, or he may throw a tantrum when he is alone with dad. Here the child is not convinced that throwing a tantrum is wrong, he just knows that it will lead to spanking if he is alone with mom.

When a child is spanked, the emphasis is not on identifying the misbehavior and preventing it, the emphasis is on trying to get out of more pain, more spanking.

You don't have to hit a child hard or be violent at all when spanking a child.

Perhaps not, but sometimes spanking can get out of hand, especially if the parent is really angry.

All that is needed afterward is a clear explanation of what I need them to do and a consistent follow through.

Not if the follow through involves spanking.

 

[talloola]

Of course it works that way. You not having Pain is an instinctual biochemical method nature uses to help people survive. If something hurts you find out why fast so as to prevent further pain. It's simple and it works.

That method works good on 'animals', children are much more intelligent, but even a good dog trainer can get
success without physical punishment. I have trained dogs for many years,
have seen both methods, and I would never hit my dog, I can teach the dog
with much more patience and intelligence than that.

Any parent who feels satisfied, and that he/she has does a good job after
inflicting 'pain' on their child, needs their head examined, but, if a parent
looses their temper, 'rarely', and does wack the kid, then feels awful, and
a big conversation takes place between the two afterward, then that parent
is remorseful, there is hope, and the child will realize that the parent
is not a violent person, and really doesn't 'wan't to hit him/her, and in that
case the child could learn something from that occurance, and remember how
unhappy they both were, and try to improve behavior.

. I have managed to refine that into a verbal sound that makes 99% of the people I have ever known, stop what they're doing and pay attention. All that is needed afterward is a clear explination of what I need them to do and a consistant follow through.
There, you've said it, eye contact, and the 'right' words can do more than any
corporal punishment, but many people don't know 'how', so, 'whack'.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The kid was eating a bagel and cream cheese and he was punished and given corn flakes or something? I would have thought the bagel and cheese was the better breakfast. Why couldn't the kid have the bagel?

That was the punishment, juan. And he was given not corn flakes, but the cereal of his choice. Nevertheless, he thought it was a big punishment.