Evolution classes optional under proposed Alberta law

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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I have implicated nothing, Captain. As I have said before, I will be happy to discuss fundamentalism with you, just start a separate thread.


Sure you have SJP, you are simply embarrassed and wish to hide your own personal fundie tendencies away... As far as a different thread is concerned, I believe that you are the one that elected to include fundamentalist Christianity as a key point in the topic, I fail to see why there is no room in this thread for it.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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Any chance of developing an academic arrangement that allows for coexistence requires that intolerant belief system of the hard-core scientific community be altered.

Sorry Captain, but there can be no coexistence between evolution (a scientific theory) and Creationism (superstition). A scientific theory can be countered by another scientific theory, but never by superstition.

It is not unusual for two competing theories to coexist at the same time (e.g. there was the Big Bang Theory and the Steady State Theory coexisting, until all the evidence pointed to the Big Bang Theory and the Steady State Theory was discredited).

However, there is no way superstition; somebody’s religious belief will be given equal weight as a fully developed, well tested scientific theory. There can be no compromise. Anyway, as I said before, what is the compromise position? That man was half created and half evolved? Or that life was created, not 5000 years ago in six days, but 10,000 years ago in 12 days?

Creationism is nonsense and has no place in science. What Alberta government is doing is pandering to a noisy, intransigent minority, the religious right.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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Again, not understanding the problem...
No, I just think it's a different one than what you're talking about. This is not just about getting Mennonite children into the public school system, it's about religiously-based objections to modern knowledge. Not only can you not teach biology without evolution, you can't do a good job with geology either, given the importance of the fossil record to that science. You can't really teach physics, astronomy, or cosmology either, to people who think the earth is less than 10,000 years old, as many fundamentalists do.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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Sorry Captain, but there can be no coexistence between evolution (a scientific theory) and Creationism (superstition)

.. Then I guess that the scientific community will just have to (grudgingly) accept that not everyone maintains their beliefs.


Bang Theory and the Steady State Theory consisting, until all the evidence pointed to the Big Bang Theory and the Steady State Theory was discredited).


... But isn't all science based on 'facts'?.. How is it possible to two opposing theories could exist simultaneously? A parallel universe perhaps?

Hahaha, just kidding. However, the premise of the Big bang theory that I find most interesting is the notion that the cosmos is in a state of perpetual expansion.... I am very interested in learning about the facts that this theory is based upon. Moreover, perhaps we can replicate the existing experiments to test it?
 

YukonJack

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Dec 26, 2008
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Cliffy, wonders never cease, I agree with every sentence in your post #10.

What is despicable is that the Left wants to erase and eliminate any and all choice.

And those who disagree with them are "rednecks".
 

Amatullaah

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Dec 12, 2007
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I think the responses in this thread illustrate the obvious power struggle between two (or more) different belief systems, or rather, two different ways of looking at the world, and to a larger extent, the universe. You have people who put their faith into whatever religious scripture/teachings they choose versus those who put their faith into whatever studies are done by those who call themselves scientists and whatever theories and hypotheses they postulate. Both groups tend to rely on a vast body of peer-reviewed work, and tend to have a hierarchy of which individuals' studies and work in their respective fields are considered to be the most accurate, well-though out, etc.

It also seems to me that most people that exist today don't exclusively belong to one group or the other, but often straddle, or move between both groups. You also have those attempt to appoint themselves as official go-betweens. The friction seems to occur between those who only stay in their group and refuse to accept any of the beliefs of the other group at all, or try to interlope between the two.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Then I guess that the scientific community will just have to (grudgingly) accept that not everyone maintains their beliefs.

Scientific community accepted that a long time ago, Captain. They had a running feud with Catholic Church in medieval Europe for a long time, until Church threw in the towel and stopped challenging scientists in each and every endeavor of science.

But scientists know through bitter experience that many people don’t believe their scientific ideas. Scientists were persecuted wholesale by the Church in medieval Europe, some were burned at the stake (e.g. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for saying that earth goes around the sun).

... But isn't all science based on 'facts'?.. How is it possible to two opposing theories could exist simultaneously? A parallel universe perhaps?

Hahaha, just kidding. However, the premise of the Big bang theory that I find most interesting is the notion that the cosmos is in a state of perpetual expansion.... I am very interested in learning about the facts that this theory is based upon. Moreover, perhaps we can replicate the existing experiments to test it?


Are you really interested? This thread is hardly the place for it, start a thread on the Big Bang Theory and I will be happy to discuss it with you.
 

barney

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Aug 1, 2007
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A few issues with this...

The concept is vague: it leaves open to interpretation exactly what constitutes discussion of religion, sexuality or sexual orientation. Who decides what is "explicit"? And likewise can teachers really be expected to remember exactly what is explicit and what is not? Won't that create the tendency to stay away from the vague middle ground in fear of legal action being taken against them?

Information control: allows parents to decide what their children may or may not know about; it is assumed that what is taught in the present day education system is sufficiently objective to justify what is discussed as non-ideological. (Even though the choice of specific texts within the curriculum may be more or less relevant, depending on your outlook/background.)

Human rights: as above, the ability of parents to control information affects the child's ability to make choices (which is vital in a democratic system).

This sets a precedent: bending to pressure (in this case from religious groups) opens the door to similar changes down the road (i.e. the slippery slope).


Granted, one could argue that if the situation were reversed and the state education system taught let's say creationism (or something that rejects evolution theory), that more progressive parents would also be asking for the right to keep their children from being exposed to that dogma.

Thing is, education in the present day western world bases itself heavily on empirical principles (i.e. what you can prove, not what you cannot). Thus far, the evolution theory, for example has not been effectively disproven, nor has any better theory become available (i.e. theory of evolution is based on empirical research and also follows strongly from logic--so most of the intelligencia in the western world accept).

Sexuality is a bit different because AFAIK, it has not been proven that traditional religious-based sexual norms are less effective at preventing unwanted pregnancy for example than sex ed. classes.

Sexual orientation is pretty much the same story as far as personal safety is concerned, but the issue of human rights is more complex (i.e. to allow children to be shielded from something that is considered to be acceptable in this country--thus in effect making it seem wrong--could be unconstitutional).

There's also the fact that these religious sectors of the population do vote and have a right to have their views represented. Then you run into the problem of having to balance the interests of the population (i.e. what happens if children are too different in terms of knowledge when they grow up--already an issue with private schools--and this adversely affects the well-being of all in the state) with the interests of the few (i.e. a parent's right to protect their children from any harm, even from the state's influence).

As for the inclusiveness aspect: the last thing you want is to alienate these groups because you will only be making it worse as far as the children's education is concerned. That said, the state also can't be bending over backwards for every group that has some issue with the curriculum (esp. if the purpose of education is to create a skilled--knowledgeable--labour force and not to impose some state ideology on the population; with the additional requirement that the populations of democracies should be objectively informed in order for the system to function effectively).


IMO it's not really a question of religion vs. secularism but rather a question of the freedom to make an informed choice vs. freedom to protect those who are highly susceptible to influence.
 

barney

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Aug 1, 2007
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Hey thanks man (I tried to be objective..for once ;) ).

What would I do? (Holy *uck this is one tough call.) Dismantle the programs. Bury the bill and hope people forget about it.

It's sad but judging the benefits against the costs, I don't think something like this is acceptable in this country. Change the education system to include a wider range of views (e.g. explain a little more about intelligent design theory in biology class--let the students figure out why evolution is now the dominant theory) and tone-down the language of sex ed if you have to but this kind of exceptionalism is not the way to go--it's a can of worms IMO.

This reminds me a bit of the issue of black-oriented schools: also proven to be good for those kids but it then implies that there is something wrong with "regular" schools (which unfortunately there is but I won't get into that). Promoters of the idea appealed to the fact that religious schools are accepted in Canada.
 

Cannuck

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No, I just think it's a different one than what you're talking about.

I know it's a different one than that I'm talking about. I'm talking about a real problem that the government is trying to deal with and has been having success dealing with. You are talking about some theoretical problem that has not occurred despite your claims that it will. You are wrong. Accept it.

This is not just about getting Mennonite children into the public school system, it's about religiously-based objections to modern knowledge.

To you yes. That's because you have a hard-on against religion. For me, it is about getting Mennonite children into the public school system. It has been proven that this allows them to integrate into society. You are completely and utterly wrong. What is so amusing is that I've had this same type of discussion with Fundies about their religion. You have absolutely no idea how much you are like them. It is rather hilarious.