Doctor-Assisted Suicide Is Officially Legal in Quebec

Count_Lothian

Time Out
Apr 6, 2014
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hm interesting that we both agree with that statement...albeit from a very different perspective but none the less, still the same

suicide is precipitated by nothing more than mental illness.

to condemn it is no different than condemning someone who dies of a physical disease.
Actually some quite sane mentally healthy people so attached to their worldly goods once lost immediately kill them selves.

I would hope the universe is not so cruel that if one off's themselves for what ever reason , they are not eternally doomed.

As for mortal sins , they come and go. As a child ,the other people were taught that eating a hot dog on Friday could damn you forever.

We were taught it as well in Catholic School but father explained that not everything taught in the Church was right.
It had an incredible effect on me, which opened up neural pathways in me never to be seen in most people.
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
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hm interesting that we both agree with that statement...albeit from a very different perspective but none the less, still the same

suicide is precipitated by nothing more than mental illness.

to condemn it is no different than condemning someone who dies of a physical disease.

neither are in control

euthanasia is quite different

it is a choice

Euthenasia is NOT suicide... it is Murder.. by whoever inflicts it on a human patient. The patient himself, if he facilitates his own death.. is Comitting Suicide. Obfuscation by way of terminology does not change the nature of the offense.

Neither does the word 'choice'.. you can 'choose' to take a shotgun into your office and blow away your boss and co-workers.. but its still a crime. You can 'choose' to end the life of your unborn infant by having him/her dismembered by a suction device.. but even though its now deemed a 'medical procedure'.. it's still murder.
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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Actually some quite sane mentally healthy people so attached to their worldly goods once lost immediately kill them selves.

I would hope the universe is not so cruel that if one off's themselves for what ever reason , they are not eternally doomed.

As for mortal sins , they come and go. As a child ,the other people were taught that eating a hot dog on Friday could damn you forever.

We were taught it as well in Catholic School but father explained that not everything taught in the Church was right.
It had an incredible effect on me, which opened up neural pathways in me never to be seen in most people.
one could argue though that someone who was mentally well yesterday and lost all of their worldly goods today would not be quite themselves ... I think the difference between those who leapt off of tall buildings and those who did not during the stock crash was, one had the will, desire and confidence that they could begin again, the other did not and thus had lost all hope. That seems to be a big component in depression, the lack of ability to see a future without pain.

I have heard it said, one may go home by committing suicide, but it's kind of like coming in the back door, I guess the front door is preferred.

I used to believe in mortal sin ... well....that's a stretch to say that... I examined the idea of mortal sin and concluded while I was still quite young that my particular god loved me and understood me and would never do that to anyone, regardless. That is the chief difference between a god of love and a god of fear.

I have also heard the suggestion that our understanding of god...mirrors the way in which our father treated us.. mine was good...so my god is good... but even when I was little...I knew god was good and that mankind sucked so I discovered him inside instead of what they told us we should believe.

In general though I have found both priests and cardinals to be fascinating individuals who don't judge, listen closely and are quite human. Nuns on the other hand...not such a great experience with them.

Euthenasia is NOT suicide... it is Murder.. by whoever inflicts it on a human patient. The patient himself, if he facilitates his own death.. is Comitting Suicide. Obfuscation by way of terminology does not change the nature of the offense.

Neither does the word 'choice'.. you can 'choose' to take a shotgun into your office and blow away your boss and co-workers.. but its still a crime. You can 'choose' to end the life of your unborn infant by having him/her dismembered by a suction device.. but even though its now deemed a 'medical procedure'.. it's still murder.
interesting....I am always quite interested in those with quite clear boundaries and unwavering beliefs....thanks.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
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One should be careful not to confuse opinions with facts.

If one is against assisted suicide then by all means don't do it. No one should be allowed to dictate to another how much pain they must endure before they die. That is barbaric, inhumane, and absurdly cruel.

Euthenasia is NOT suicide... it is Murder.. by whoever inflicts it on a human patient. The patient himself, if he facilitates his own death.. is Comitting Suicide. Obfuscation by way of terminology does not change the nature of the offense.

Neither does the word 'choice'.. you can 'choose' to take a shotgun into your office and blow away your boss and co-workers.. but its still a crime. You can 'choose' to end the life of your unborn infant by having him/her dismembered by a suction device.. but even though its now deemed a 'medical procedure'.. it's still murder.

What are you thoughts on the people who jumped to their deaths in the World Trade Centre attack? They, effectively committed suicide and did not wait to perish a burning death by fire.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
29,151
3
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London, Ontario
One should be careful not to confuse opinions with facts.

If one is against assisted suicide then by all means don't do it. No one should be allowed to dictate to another how much pain they must endure before they die. That is barbaric, inhumane, and absurdly cruel.

You're talking about people who confuse opinions with facts here. What's "wrong" for them is "wrong" for everybody......cuz they said so.
 

QuebecCanadian

Electoral Member
Apr 13, 2014
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The Vatican is dogmatically and irrevocably opposed to euthenasia. There is a huge difference between refusing heroic and futile efforts to prolong life, which will lead to a natural death.. and committing suicide. Which i've said before is a mortal sin. It's a line that when crossed will radically diminish the value of life, ultimately to that of a formulation of cost.



Yes, yes it will :/
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Ottawa
The Vatican is dogmatically and irrevocably opposed to euthenasia.

At the moment perhaps. They have flip flopped on quite a few things dogmatically over the last 2 thousand years or so.

The difference here is that it involves the active participation of the medical profession (who are oath bound to preserve life),

The oath says "do no harm" not "preserve life at any cost." In some cases the quality of life is so low it does the person more harm to live with it than to stop. It should be left to the individual to decide that. If a Doctor doesn't want to take part, thats fine but there are some out there who would. Allow them to do it.

There has never been any law against suicide.

Yes there has been in quite a few countries. In an amusing irony at one time in some places they executed people who attempted suicide. Sounds stupid I know, but they had some weird ideas in the middle ages.

That doesn't fit into the modern social lexicon either, since if you don't believe in God, your not going to be much worried about Hell. ;)

Quite true. Whenever Ive been told I'm "going to Hell" for whatever reason I tend to find it amusing. They might as well be saying Im going to go to Middle Earth or Narnia when I die.

suicide is precipitated by nothing more than mental illness.

to condemn it is no different than condemning someone who dies of a physical disease.

neither are in control

Agreed. It pisses me off to no end when people call it selfish, cowardly or weak for a person to die in that way. My step sister died that way and she was none of those things.

What are you thoughts on the people who jumped to their deaths in the World Trade Centre attack? They, effectively committed suicide and did not wait to perish a burning death by fire.

Thats an odd one. I saw a documentary called "The Falling Man" about those people. The reactions from a lot of the families of those people were surprising. Most of them refused to believe that their loved one went out that way and insisted that they wouldn't have given up even in that situation. Some were worried that their friend/relative would go to hell for it even in that situation. I really don't get that, even if I believed in a god and an afterlife Id have a hard time thinking that.
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
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Chillliwack, BC
What are you thoughts on the people who jumped to their deaths in the World Trade Centre attack? They, effectively committed suicide and did not wait to perish a burning death by fire.


In the grand scheme of things i would rather place the case (to God) of being forced out of window by fire, than the JUNK that goes for logic in the Euthenasia lobby.. where you get the family and pets around for a 'kick the bucket' party.. because the victim has decided that they are a burden to his/her loved ones or couldn't be bothered putting up with a well managed regime of pain medication to natural death... with its resultant financial burden.

The Catholic Church has never viewed the human experience as reaching levels of discomfort where it is not worth living. You might as well question why Christ did not come down from the Cross when the outcome was assured. It's because human suffering is part of the gift of life.. it is the currency of redemption. But the role of reason and faith are implicit with that, rather than resort to cold panic. That's splitting hairs maybe.. but that too is part of life.

Not suicide, but attemped suicide was. It was removed from the Criminal Code by Parliament in 1972.

I believe giving wrong information, Coldy, is a mortal sin.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness."


I did say Suicide is not illegal.. since their would be no respondent to Charge, a necessity in a criminal prosecution. Attempted suicide can be a crime in some jurisdictions.. but usually as device to enter the individual into some treatment program or restraint in which they could not do themselves or others harm.
 
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Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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The Catholic Church has never viewed the human experience as reaching levels of discomfort where it is not worth living. You might as well question why Christ did not come down from the Cross when the outcome was assured. It's because human suffering is part of the gift of life.. it is the currency of redemption. But the role of reason and faith are implicit with that, rather than resort to cold panic. That's splitting hairs maybe.. but that too is part of life.

So how about making it illegal for Catholics to benefit from assisted suicide and leave the rest of us to a choice?

Have you had the benefit of watching a loved one dye a painful death when the drugs don't work? If suffering is the currency of redemption then why use pain medication as a reason to avoid assisted suicide?
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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Have you had the benefit of watching a loved one dye a painful death when the drugs don't work? If suffering is the currency of redemption then why use pain medication as a reason to avoid assisted suicide?

an interesting question Twila...also interesting is the belief in the eternal damnation of the soul, and the terrifying fear which it produces in those that embrace such a belief because it does allow believers to over look the suffering on this side and even to justify it.
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
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36
Ottawa
So how about making it illegal for Catholics to benefit from assisted suicide and leave the rest of us to a choice?

Have you had the benefit of watching a loved one dye a painful death when the drugs don't work? If suffering is the currency of redemption then why use pain medication as a reason to avoid assisted suicide?

Ha, I know a lot of 'Catholics' who would not like being told they cannot take part in this. My grandmother who has been dead awhile now was a die hard Catholic, went to church every sunday etc but she would have taken this way out if it was available. She said it a number of times. Unfortunately it didn't happen and she died from dementia. That disease in effect killed her many years before her body actually gave out. I think it should be an individual's choice. Regardless of their religion if they want it, they should be able to have it, if they don't then they should be able to stay alive as long as they possibly can. I also know a few people who said they don't care how miserable their quality of life gets they'd still want to stay alive. To that I say fine, your life, your choice.

where you get the family and pets around for a 'kick the bucket' party.. because the victim has decided that they are a burden to his/her loved ones or couldn't be bothered putting up with a well managed regime of pain medication to natural death... with its resultant financial burden.

Doing it because you think you're a financial burden is a bit weird to me as well. Thats not why I'd do it. If I were to it would be because of the pain and a s*itty quality of life with no chance of recovery. I don't really give a damn about money in these situations one way or another. I would never end my life to make things easier on others, nor would I want someone else to die to make things easier for me. If those drugs are enough to allow me to continue to get some joy out of life, sure Id definitely take it. But if its just keeping me in a numb state in bed while Im just waiting to die then Im not interested.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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Ha, I know a lot of 'Catholics' who would not like being told they cannot take part in this. My grandmother who has been dead awhile now was a die hard Catholic, went to church every sunday etc but she would have taken this way out if it was available. She said it a number of times. Unfortunately it didn't happen and she died from dementia. That disease in effect killed her many years before her body actually gave out. I think it should be an individual's choice. Regardless of their religion if they want it, they should be able to have it, if they don't then they should be able to stay alive as long as they possibly can. I also know a few people who said they don't care how miserable their quality of life gets they'd still want to stay alive. To that I say fine, your life, your choice.

I think those that say they'd want to stay alive as long as possible would soon change their tune if they had to die with the pain of bone cancer or slowly suffocate to death.
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
5,160
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Chillliwack, BC
So how about making it illegal for Catholics to benefit from assisted suicide and leave the rest of us to a choice?

Have you had the benefit of watching a loved one dye a painful death when the drugs don't work? If suffering is the currency of redemption then why use pain medication as a reason to avoid assisted suicide?


That kind of capitulates to the moral relativism that has gripped Western Civilization and is drawing it into a New Dark Age.. one similar to the collapse of Rome with dramatic de-population brought on by disease, famine, conflict.. and fragmentation of learning and science. The fact of the matter is the West is built on Christian values. You can look to Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West to see how integral that faith is in the formation and foundation of the culture.. and how its demise will bring down the superstructure which has been built on it.

We seem to have moved away from the original question. That is should the State and Medical profession be murdering the helpless and terminally ill. I've said before that Suicide is not viewed as a crime, these days anyway.. it is viewed by ALL faiths as a sin. So the decision is still with the patient and with the patient alone.

Death and disease has been with us since the start of time, yet this question of 'assisted' suicide is barely a generation old.. brought into the realm of a 'compassionate and tolerant' Culture of Death that informs all aspects of our society now.. in questions of abortion, euthenasia, homosexuality and many other dilemmas. It forms a weave that systematically expels the founding thread of faith of the West from of its legal fabric.

As an aside to your comments of the WTC jumpers, i'd note that there was a previous instance in New York of a catastrophic fire in a high rise that led to people jumping to their deaths. That was the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire of 1911 At that time, those caught on the roof, mostly young immigrant women, were encouraged or helped to jump by an unknown man who became known as the Angel of Death. There's a real question, whatever you think of the decision to jump, as to whether it is in any way ethical to counsel, encourage and push those in that predicament. And yet that is the role you are imposing on the State and the medical profession.

Both of my parents died after somewhat lingering illnesses. An uncle died of a wasting disease, pancreatic cancer. All had natural deaths, were made comfortable in their last hours, and did not impose the crises of conscience on family members that would have resulted from an unnatural death by lethal injection.

Suffering as such is something that follows all of us throughout are lives.. often of emotional or physical causes.. iterated with the joys and triumphs of life. We are well equipped, by God to deal with it.. And God never gives us more than we can handle. So what is the rush. It is caused by fear, i believe. We all have that.. but it is the response to that fear, in capitulation, that is troubling. That smacks of cowardice.

My parents, uncle i believe had brave, noble and serene deaths. Who knows what their final hours brought.. maybe some grace. I could not say the same for someone who has given up and had a lethal injection to avoid that 'unknown and fearful' end.
 
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Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
That kind of capitulates to the moral relativism that has gripped Western Civilization and is drawing it into a New Dark Age.. one similar to the collapse of Rome with dramatic de-population brought on by disease, famine, conflict.. and fragmentation of learning and science. The fact of the matter is the West is built on Christian values. You can look to Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West to see how integral that faith is in the formation and foundation of the culture.. and how its demise will bring down the superstructure which has been built on it.

We seem to have moved away from the original question. That is should the State and Medical profession be murdering the helpless and terminally ill. I've said before that Suicide is not viewed as a crime, these days anyway.. it is viewed by ALL faiths as a sin. So the decision is still with the patient and with the patient alone.

Death and disease has been with us since the start of time, yet this question of 'assisted' suicide is barely a generation old.. brought into the realm of a 'compassionate and tolerant' Culture of Death that informs all aspects of our society now.. in questions of abortion, euthenasia, homosexuality and many other dilemmas. It forms a weave that systematically expels the founding thread of faith of the West from of its legal fabric.

As an aside to your comments of the WTC jumpers, i'd note that there was a previous instance in New York of a catastrophic fire in a high rise that led to people jumping to their deaths. That was the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire of 1911 At that time, those caught on the roof, mostly young immigrant women, were encouraged or helped to jump by an unknown man who became known as the Angel of Death. There's a real question, whatever you think of the decision to jump, as to whether it is in any way ethical to counsel, encourage and push those in that predicament. And yet that is the role you are imposing on the State and the medical profession.

Both of my parents died after somewhat lingering illnesses. An uncle died of a wasting disease, pancreatic cancer. All had natural deaths, were made comfortable in their last hours, and did not impose the crises of conscience on family members that would have resulted from an unnatural death by lethal injection.

Suffering as such is something that follows all of us throughout are lives.. often of emotional or physical causes.. iterated with the joys and triumphs of life. We are well equipped, by God to deal with it.. And God never gives us more than we can handle. So what is the rush. It is caused by fear, i believe. We all have that.. but it is the response to that fear, in capitulation, that is troubling. That smacks of cowardice.

My parents, uncle i believe had brave, noble and serene deaths. Who knows what their final hours brought.. maybe some grace. I could not say the same for someone who has given up and had a lethal injection to avoid that 'unknown and fearful' end.

Thank you very much, Coldstream, for sharing that. I'm always curious when someone has such a strong opinion on something if they've actually experienced or have experience. I appreciate the eloquence of your passion on this issue. We may not agree (and we don't) but it's nice to be able to have a dialogue with someone of a differing opinion and I have enjoyed this one with ou.

I don't know if you want to or are willing to explore this statement:
" The fact of the matter is the West is built on Christian values. You can look to Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West to see how integral that faith is in the formation and foundation of the culture.. and how its demise will bring down the superstructure which has been built on it. "

but if you are...Since we have never been without religion how is anyone able to know if the lack of faith would have any adverse effect or if having had no faith during development might not have created a more equal more peaceful society?
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
5,160
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Chillliwack, BC
I don't know if you want to or are willing to explore this statement:
" The fact of the matter is the West is built on Christian values. You can look to Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West to see how integral that faith is in the formation and foundation of the culture.. and how its demise will bring down the superstructure which has been built on it. "

but if you are...Since we have never been without religion how is anyone able to know if the lack of faith would have any adverse effect or if having had no faith during development might not have created a more equal more peaceful society?


Oswald Spengler's book Decline of the West was published in 1918 and caused a sensation in its predictions of civilizational decline at a time when the onset of modernism and technology was heralding a bright age of unlimited prosperity, equality and enlightenment.

Most people between the World Wars would have been aware of it. Certainly the Great Depression and catastrophic 'Great War' spurred on interest. Oswald Spengler, however, was not a Christian (a Theist), but was part of the deist social philosophical moverments of the 19th and 20th Centuries.. but managed to produce an incisive analysis of the (Christian) constituent makeup of Western Civilization.


But it is has now been relegated to dusty academic libraries and is not widely read and acknowledged.. EVEN though.. it has with great precision and prescience.. predicted the social, scientific and religious phenomenon and devolution of the modern age... and the imminent crises that faces the West. The book is based on a well supported thesis that the cohesive and integral civilizing impulse originates always around a seminal belief system, with its accordant natural and moral laws.

It's be difficult to discuss it with someone who hasn't read the book. But i would suggest everyone read Decline of the West - Volume 1. (Volume 2 was published later as a support for the original.. but all the ideas are best and completely exposed in Vol. 1). It cuts through some of the delusion of 'progress' that has gripped the West.
 
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