Deserter granted last-minute stay of deportation

[B00Mer]

If he wants to stay in Canada then he should ship out to Afghanistan for a tour or two and show his worth to the Canadian people!

Great idea.. :lol: :lol:

This guy volentarily signed up, got his free education at tax payer expenses. Send him back.

If this was a draft, that's a different situation. He was not drafted into going and fighting.

This guy has a yellow streak down his back a mile wide, what a pussy.

 

[EagleSmack]

So I guess everyone is free in the USA... except soldiers.

Not just soldiers...Marines, sailors, airmen, and Coast Guard.

Well that is the way it has always worked. You can't run a military like you do a college campus. Canada's military is run the same way. When you sign up you waive your rights as a US citizen and are now under command of the military and are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

ALL militaries require a separate set of laws that must be followed by it's members.

You may not like it...but it is what it is.

As a civillian I can come and go as I please now. When I was a Marine I had better be where I was told to be and do what I was told to do or I would be punished. Simple.

 

[Colpy]

Where I live there are many deserters and dodgers from the Vietnam era, they are exemplary citizens of Canada now.

Different game, DB. They did not surrender their rights by enlisting: they were drafted. BIG difference.

 

[Praxius]

I say keep him. But you know...eventually he will return and will have to face the music. He is only delaying the inevitable and putting his wife through a lot of stress. Even as we speak the curtain is coming down on these deserters and they are not as in vogue as they once had been. Anti-War protests are very hard to find and an audience for these folks is dwindling.

I think there is a lot of truth in what his lawyer says as by speaking out he violates the oath he took...

"I will not make statements written and oral that may be harmful to my country and it's allies."

So by grandstanding he dug himself a little deeper.

He will return just like the rest of them have been as of late. Then he will get it!

He didn't make any statements that were harmful.... then again, I guess that depends on what you considder harmful and to whom.

 

[darkbeaver]

Different game, DB. They did not surrender their rights by enlisting: they were drafted. BIG difference.

Big difference to small minds maybe?

 

[Zzarchov]

Eaglesmack, you are missing my point:

What the military decides it will tolerate from Soldiers and what those Soldiers swore to do are different.

The military can choose to interpret their oath to mean they should usurp an elected government and install their General as King (which they once threatened to do),

That doesn't mean they are right or that soldiers who oppose their views and uphold their oaths as they believe them are wrong.

It just means they are going to suffer for it. Claiming someone is wrong because they are opposed by those more powerful is nonsensical.

 

[Praxius]

I do not think the military prosecutor would have a tough time proving that to a military jury. He faces people who understand what that oath means whereas civillians do not.

Oh, so civilians are brain dead morons who don't understand what's going on? Then why do you give a contract to civilians to sign when they enlist in the military if they don't know what is going on?

Do they just sign away their lives and rights, then later on, they're trained and educated that they just screwed themselves over and should have remained as brain dead moron civilians who don't know what's right and what's wrong?

 

[EagleSmack]

He didn't make any statements that were harmful.... then again, I guess that depends on what you considder harmful and to whom.

Well that will be for the Military Court Martial to decide. I have a hunch they will see things more along the lines of what I am saying than the other side.

Just like when you and I talked about Robin Long, the deserter that Canada DID send back. We had this debate and you said he did nothing wrong, the military jury of his peers thought differently. Now he is, in essence, screwed.

 

[Praxius]

Great idea.. :lol: :lol:

This guy volentarily signed up, got his free education at tax payer expenses. Send him back.

If this was a draft, that's a different situation. He was not drafted into going and fighting.

This guy has a yellow streak down his back a mile wide, what a pussy.

I'd say refusing to kill civilians in their own country and planting weapons and IED tools on their bodies to make them look like terrorists or insurgents, because it's the popular thing to do, is far from being a pussy.

Keeping your mouth shut and going along with it, ignoring your own morals and everything you were taught growing up is what I considder a spinless pussy.

"I was just following orders" are some of the greatest words in some of the world's worst tragedies.

 

[EagleSmack]

Oh, so civilians are brain dead morons who don't understand what's going on? Then why do you give a contract to civilians to sign when they enlist in the military if they don't know what is going on?

Do they just sign away their lives and rights, then later on, they're trained and educated that they just screwed themselves over and should have remained as brain dead moron civilians who don't know what's right and what's wrong?

Oh boy...leave it to you. Boy...did someone push you down in the sand box one too many times? Where does all this flying off the handle come from?

I did not say they are brain dead morons. What I said that is they do not understand what the oath means in the literal sense. Once you are in the military it is taught to you how to conduct yourself as a member of the Armed Forces. Your obligations, your rights, your duties and responsibilities.

You are one angry boy Prax...one angry boy.

 

[Praxius]

Well that will be for the Military Court Martial to decide. I have a hunch they will see things more along the lines of what I am saying than the other side.

Just like when you and I talked about Robin Long, the deserter that Canada DID send back. We had this debate and you said he did nothing wrong, the military jury of his peers thought differently. Now he is, in essence, screwed.

Indeed... to me, it spells an unfair trial process run by military thugs out to please their government masters.

 

[Zzarchov]

Eaglesmack, again with the oath.

What the Military teaches you it means are irrelevant in a moral and ethical sense,

Since that is all taught AFTER the fact. He didn't swear that oath as the Military later told him it meant, he swore that oath with "Civilian understanding" as you put it.

I am well aware what my Oath means in the eyes of the military, and I am aware of what it meant to me when I made it. And if it diverges ever in my life (as it didn't end when I left) I'll follow the oath I swore, not the one they wanted me to.

 

[Praxius]

Oh boy...leave it to you. Boy...did someone push you down in the sand box one too many times? Where does all this flying off the handle come from?

I did not say they are brain dead morons. What I said that is they do not understand what the oath means in the literal sense. Once you are in the military it is taught to you how to conduct yourself as a member of the Armed Forces. Your obligations, your rights, your duties and responsibilities.

You are one angry boy Prax...one angry boy.

Nah, I'm not really angry, I just sorta started to say one thing and then went with it.

You said "He faces people who understand what that oath means whereas civillians do not." As if civilians have no understanding of what is stated in a contract written up by the military.

If they don't understand the details in a contract given to them, and those details are not properly explained prior to signing the contract, then the contract is null and void.

If the contract explains itself as how Z and I see it, then he shouldn't be punished for speaking his mind. If it's the way in which you explained it, then the oath and contract should be re-written to be a bit more specific.

That's all.

 

[EagleSmack]

Eaglesmack, you are missing my point:

What the military decides it will tolerate from Soldiers and what those Soldiers swore to do are different.

The military can choose to interpret their oath to mean they should usurp an elected government and install their General as King (which they once threatened to do),

That doesn't mean they are right or that soldiers who oppose their views and uphold their oaths as they believe them are wrong.

It just means they are going to suffer for it. Claiming someone is wrong because they are opposed by those more powerful is nonsensical.

The military is made up of soldiers. They all are soldiers. Not everyone agrees or appreciates what this lad has done. It is not just the oath it is the UCMJ. Regardless of his opinion...he deserted. How can that be misinterpeted?

I say it does make them wrong. You aren't supposed to desert...that is wrong.

Just like they are all finding out. One at a time they are returning. Mostly on their own as they decided running to Canada, although it may sound romantic, is not all it was cracked up to be. The ones that are returning on their own are finding a little more leniency. Guys like this and Robin Long are learning the hard way.

As of now...this guy should do whatever he can to stay in Canada. He is in a whole heap of trouble!

 

[s_lone]

You aren't supposed to desert...that is wrong.

Would you have condemned a German guy for deserting the Nazi army because he didn't agree with what it was doing?


*I DO NOT THINK THE US ARMY ARE NAZIS.*

 

[EagleSmack]

Eaglesmack, again with the oath.

What the Military teaches you it means are irrelevant in a moral and ethical sense,

Since that is all taught AFTER the fact. He didn't swear that oath as the Military later told him it meant, he swore that oath with "Civilian understanding" as you put it.

I am well aware what my Oath means in the eyes of the military, and I am aware of what it meant to me when I made it. And if it diverges ever in my life (as it didn't end when I left) I'll follow the oath I swore, not the one they wanted me to.

With regards to morals and ethics that is just your opinion and obviously the opinion of a lot. They happen to not wear a uniform. A lot of it is common sense. You don't go to reporters or get on a stage and say the war is wrong as a member of the military. You are asking for trouble and bringing it on your own head. It is a stupid decision and pleading ignorance to that decision would not save one. You SURELY don't desert. Heck, showing up late to formation will get your butt chewed and possibly extra duty. Nevermind going to Canada.

There are a lot of things that need to be taught. It would be foolish to think that every young man or woman should know everything about the military. I had no clue what to expect on Parris Island. The argument you are giving saying that this kid didn't know about military interpetation falls short as he did know he was signing up and he was signing up for most likely 4 years active and 4 years on the IRR and was responsible.

That argument has yet to free one of them from punishment.

 

[EagleSmack]

Indeed... to me, it spells an unfair trial process run by military thugs out to please their government masters.

Unfair because the judgement is different from what you want it to be? Is that what your interpetation of justice is... what Prax wants? Whatever Prax wants should be adhered to and any other finding is an injustice?

If you go through the list of deserters and what they are getting it is far more lenient than I would thought they would have recieved. Some are getting general discharges, less than honorable. The hard cases that make it difficult for them are getting the screws to them because their conduct up in Canada is being considered. Even though they are not in uniform and have long hair, they are still under contract. Each time they go in front of the cameras, in front of a judge for a stay they are digging themselves in a deeper hole.

 

[Unforgiven]

Well something has to be wrong with this system then if there are so many people who sign up with their young only to find that the only reasonable option left to them is flee the country a criminal, face a life of a fugitive and suffer the slings and arrows should they be discovered.

Are there any cases of Canadians fleeing South to avoid service in the Canadian military once they have signed up?

 

[EagleSmack]

Well when you look at the size of our military you are going to get the deserters. Heck I even knew a few in the 80's and we weren't even at war! Some people get fed up and can't hack it.

Why would they come south? Odds are that he is going to be turned right around unless he ends up in Berkley CA.

 

[EagleSmack]

Well something has to be wrong with this system then if there are so many people who sign up with their young only to find that the only reasonable option left to them is flee the country a criminal, face a life of a fugitive and suffer the slings and arrows should they be discovered.

Are there any cases of Canadians fleeing South to avoid service in the Canadian military once they have signed up?

I just found a stat on-line.

Out of about 1 Million men and women underarms, 929 are listed as unaccounted for/ deserted. Not a bad stat.

Now you will find there were over 8,000 AWOL cases and say...

"AHHH HA!"

But AWOL can mean anything. We had two guys get back to the ship about 2 hours late for formation. They were charged with being AWOL as they were indeed absent without leave. They had a rough night, met a few girls and couldn't get a cab. They were punished but it was just extra duty.

Most AWOL cases are guys/gals that skip off for a week for one reason or the other. Sure they get punished but it is a case by case situation. But they do face some sort of punishment.