David Suzuki's Rock bus Eco - Tour -Mr .Kyoto himself

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Hmm....Eight people in a bus that could hold thirty. The prime minister often travels with a dozen people on an aircraft that could hold seventy. The president of the U.S. has travelled on a 747 with a few dozen people when the aircraft could carry at least three hundred.:?

I can't speak for Harper but Bush isn't the one screaming

"THE SKY IS FALLING!"

With regards to GW. This guy Suzuki is a liar and a hypocit. I particularly like the new Carbon Credit scam. Polute all you want and put a dollar amount to it... then invest that money in a green industry (or whatever).

Gore just got bagged pulling the same stuff. His household uses twice the power of an average American household.

"No worries" says Gore "I buy Carbon Credits."

These wealthy eco-nuts will never put a stop to their lifestyles or restrict their comfort in the least.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
he is

its called carbon neutrality. like I said at the outside its a concept that's too difficult for some to grasp, let alone be good enough for those out to put him down.
You keep talking about it like it is some sort of magical advancement in science, beyond our grasp.

Going carbon neutral is an easy way to take responsibility for the greenhouse gas emissions we create every time we drive our cars, take a plane, or turn on our computers. It's based on the principle that, since climate change is a global problem, an emission reduction made elsewhere has the same positive effect as one made locally.

Here's how it works: if you add polluting emissions to the atmosphere, you can effectively subtract them by purchasing 'carbon offsets'. Carbon offsets are simply credits for emission reductions achieved by projects elsewhere, such as wind farms, solar installations, or energy efficiency projects. By purchasing these credits, you can apply them to your own emissions and reduce your net climate impact. http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/What_You_Can_Do/carbon_neutral.asp
From Suzuki's own site. And a complete load of shyte. An easy way to take responsiblity?
My ass it is, it's an easy way to BS the masses, into buying the welfare scam.

So this somehow makes it all OK, because somewhere, somehow, somebody is making a difference? Just not Suzuki, just not for the next lil while?

Do you not see the waste of thought that is? That is the whole problem with the program he's pushing. I want real change across the board, land, sea and air. No trading of credits, not singluar visions of GHG as the worlds biggest issue. Total global anti polution action and now. Not some trumpt up global welfare scheme.

(btw, there's your proof Avro)
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Riding around in a diesel bus doesn't look very good and it is not leading by example.

Suzuki needs a lesson in PR like I said before.

So, I guess I'll go buy a Hummer but buy stocks in an environmentally friendly company.

This is a great post Avro. I have a feeling we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this as I do not buy into GW at all. But if you do that is great. We are all entitled to believe what we want.

The thing that gets me is these folks tell the common man that THEY need to do something and time after time are caught hooping it up on private jets, SUVs (John Kerry owns a few), and now Rock Style Tour busses.

Your last line... well technically you would be OK in doing just that. Buy whatever you want, use as much power as you want as long as you buy Carbon Credits you should be good to go! However if you don't buy Carbon Credits or can't afford them you are baaaaaaaaad. You can pollute as long as you are rich.

By the way... how many Hollywood Stars carpooled to the Oscars prior to giving Al Gore a standing ovation on his work on the environment and GW? How many miles was the line of limos that sat in idle as each star was let off at the red carpet?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
This is a great post Avro. I have a feeling we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this as I do not buy into GW at all. But if you do that is great. We are all entitled to believe what we want.

The thing that gets me is these folks tell the common man that THEY need to do something and time after time are caught hooping it up on private jets, SUVs (John Kerry owns a few), and now Rock Style Tour busses.

Your last line... well technically you would be OK in doing just that. Buy whatever you want, use as much power as you want as long as you buy Carbon Credits you should be good to go! However if you don't buy Carbon Credits or can't afford them you are baaaaaaaaad. You can pollute as long as you are rich.
Or a devoloping nation.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
With regards to GW. This guy Suzuki is a liar and a hypocit. I particularly like the new Carbon Credit scam. Polute all you want and put a dollar amount to it... then invest that money in a green industry (or whatever).

You don't know Suzuki and you don't have the education to criticize him. You sure as hell are not qualified to call him a liar. You are welcome to your opinions, but opinions based on ignorance don't carry a hell of a lot of weight. While Suzuki didn't invent Kyoto, the accord had some good points, namely getting the world to work together on GW. It needs improvement but so do we all.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Or a devoloping nation.

Developing... like China? lol

Another cowardly action by the Kyoto. Giving one of the worlds biggest economies and industrial base a developing nation status. What a crock. They knew China would tell them to stick it if they tried to get "green" tough with them. China could care less about the environment or what these green people think and the green people know that. So they gave a nation that has a manned space program a "developing" nation status.
 
  • Like
Reactions: L Gilbert

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
Developing... like China? lol

Another cowardly action by the Kyoto. Giving one of the worlds biggest economies and industrial base a developing nation status. What a crock. They knew China would tell them to stick it if they tried to get "green" tough with them. China could care less about the environment or what these green people think and the green people know that. So they gave a nation that has a manned space program a "developing" nation status.

Considering China's infastructure and level of poverty I'd say it is a developing country.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
You don't know Suzuki and you don't have the education to criticize him. You sure as hell are not qualified to call him a liar. You are welcome to your opinions, but opinions based on ignorance don't carry a hell of a lot of weight. While Suzuki didn't invent Kyoto, the accord had some good points, namely getting the world to work together on GW. It needs improvement but so do we all.

I know enough of his tactics by reading about him. I have read some of the debates and have read how time and again he uses disinformation (see "lies") to further his agenda. Time and again he is called out and he avoids the question or makes up his own answers.

Now it has been pointed out that he is a hypocrit. White wash won't stick to dirt.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
You don't know Suzuki and you don't have the education to criticize him. You sure as hell are not qualified to call him a liar. You are welcome to your opinions, but opinions based on ignorance don't carry a hell of a lot of weight. While Suzuki didn't invent Kyoto, the accord had some good points, namely getting the world to work together on GW. It needs improvement but so do we all.

That line is typical of one who does not fully understand Kyoto or what it is trying to do.
Speaking of typical...

Anyone that deny's Kyoto or that GW is completely the result of mankind, is either ignorant, unintelleigent, an idiot and the list goes on all day.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news juan, but Suzuki is a liar...

"To begin with, he suggests that if Canada fails to meet its Kyoto targets, we will become "international outlaws". (To hear the audio clip click here.)
This assertion is stunningly ignorant. The Kyoto Protocol is not criminal law by any standard. It is an agreement -- in other words, a contract, not unlike those that people enter into all the time. Parties to contracts sometimes find, for any number of reasons that they are unable to meet their obligations, forcing them to re-negotiate the terms of the contract, abrogate the contract, or simply repudiate it. Sometimes the act of breaking a contract is accompanied by penalties as stipulated in the agreement, and sometimes penalties are imposed by courts -- but when they are, it is always civil courts that impose penalties, never criminal courts. It seems that in David Suzuki's world, you would be branded an 'outlaw' if you lost your job and could no longer afford the mortgage payments you believed you could.
"It gets worse.
Having demonstrated how little he knows about the workings of international treaties, Suzuki dismisses questions about the scientific integrity of Kyoto, characterizing as "a lot of baloney" Oakley's observation that "a lot of scientists feel they're intimidated from speaking out..."
"2,500 scientists signed the IPCC (Inter-Governmental Panel on Climate Change) Report on February 2!" Suzuki exclaims. (To hear the audio clip click here.)
"My suspicion already aroused by his false allegation of 'outlaw' behaviour, I decided to check this out for myself -- and discovered that, in fact, only 51 individuals signed the IPCC Report released on February 2. (Click here to download a copy of this report.)
"It seems that the Great Suzuki got that one wrong too. Quelle surprise!
"There's more.
"After Suzuki insinuates that scientists who disagree with him are "shilling" for big corporations, Oakley asks him where he gets his funding. Suzuki replies that his foundation takes no money from governments and complains that "corporations have not been interested in funding us." (To hear the audio clip click here.)
"Corporations uninterested? Is it possible that the Great Suzuki has failed to attract a single corporate donation to his feel-good campaign to save the earth? Not one?
"Actually, the David Suzuki Foundation's annual report for 2005/2006 lists at least 52 corporate donors including: Bell Canada, Toyota, IBM, McGraw-Hill Ryerson, Microsoft, Scotia Capital, Warner Brothers, RBC, Canon and Bank of Montreal.
(Suzuki's mentor Maurice Strong incidentally is on the Suzuki Foundation's board of directors and was before joining up as a business partner with George Soros on a scheme to flood the American market with Chinese manufactured Chery cars, on the board of directors of Toyota).
The David Suzuki Foundation also received donations from EnCana Corporation, a world leader in natural gas production and oil sands development, ATCO Gas, Alberta's principle distributor of natural gas, and a number of pension funds including the OPG (Ontario Power Generation) Employees' and Pensioners ' Charity Trust. OPG is one of the largest suppliers of electricity in the world operating 5 fossil fuel-burning generation plants and 3 nuclear plants... which begs the question -- is Suzuki now pro-nuclear power? http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover022207.htm
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
Speaking of typical...

Anyone that deny's Kyoto or that GW is completely the result of mankind, is either ignorant, unintelleigent, an idiot and the list goes on all day.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news juan, but Suzuki is a liar...

I never said that, I just said they don't fully understand Kyoto.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
You don't know Suzuki and you don't have the education to criticize him. You sure as hell are not qualified to call him a liar. You are welcome to your opinions, but opinions based on ignorance don't carry a hell of a lot of weight. While Suzuki didn't invent Kyoto, the accord had some good points, namely getting the world to work together on GW. It needs improvement but so do we all.

good post. Suzuki isn't perfect but, I mean, get serious. The guy's over 70 years old. If you ask me after all those years he's earned the right to pass all the gas he wants. at least he's ponying up.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Considering China's infastructure and level of poverty I'd say it is a developing country.

Because China refuses to fix some of the infrastructure and refuses to bring it's people up and devote it's billions to its industry, military, space program does not make it a developing nation.

There is poverty and infrastructure issues here in the US... are we developing as well?

Misuse of money is no excuse to give a country a developing nation status.

The bottom line is China NEVER would have signed that treaty and the Kyoto folks knew it. Complaining to China is like complaing to a wall. They could care less what you think or what you say about them. China will NEVER sign on to this treaty. Heck even the signator nations aren't living up to their obligations.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
Because China refuses to fix some of the infrastructure and refuses to bring it's people up and devote it's billions to its industry, military, space program does not make it a developing nation.

There is poverty and infrastructure issues here in the US... are we developing as well?

Misuse of money is no excuse to give a country a developing nation status.

The bottom line is China NEVER would have signed that treaty and the Kyoto folks knew it. Complaining to China is like complaing to a wall. They could care less what you think or what you say about them. China will NEVER sign on to this treaty. Heck even the signator nations aren't living up to their obligations.

The level of poverty in China is vastly different in China than in the U.S.

China is already making moves in the area of green technology with help from the West.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
The level of poverty in China is vastly different in China than in the U.S.

China is already making moves in the area of green technology with help from the West.
That green technology will be negated by the shear quantity of coal fire plants.
New coal plants bury 'Kyoto'

New greenhouse-gas emissions from China, India, and the US will swamp cuts from the Kyoto treaty.

By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

So much for Kyoto.
The official treaty to curb greenhouse-gas emissions hasn't gone into effect yet and already three countries are planning to build nearly 850 new coal-fired plants, which would pump up to five times as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as the Kyoto Protocol aims to reduce.

The magnitude of that imbalance is staggering. Environmentalists have long called the treaty a symbolic rather than practical victory in the fight against global warming. But even many of them do not appear aware of the coming tidal wave of greenhouse-gas emissions by nations not under Kyoto restrictions.
By 2012, the plants in three key countries - China, India, and the United States - are expected to emit as much as an extra 2.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide, according to a Monitor analysis of power-plant construction data. In contrast, Kyoto countries by that year are supposed to have cut their CO2 emissions by some 483 million tons.
The findings suggest that critics of the treaty, including the Bush administration, may be correct when they claim the treaty is hopelessly flawed because it doesn't limit emissions from the developing world. But they also suggest that the world is on the cusp of creating a huge new infrastructure that will pump out enormous amounts of CO2 for the next six decades.
Without strong US leadership, it's unlikely that technology to cut CO2 emissions will be ready in time for the power-plant construction boom, many say.
"If all those power plants are online by 2012, then obviously it completely cancels out any gains from Kyoto," says Gavin Schmidt, a climate modeler with the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, part of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
The reason for the dramatic imbalance is coal. Just a few years ago, economists and environmentalists still pictured a world shifting steadily from "dirty" coal-fired power plants to "cleaner" natural-gas turbines. But the fast-rising price of natural gas and other factors abruptly changed that picture. Now the world is facing a tidal wave of new power plants fired by coal, experts say. "China and India are building coal-fired capacity as fast as they can," says Christopher Bergesen, who tracks power plant construction for Platts, the energy publishing division of McGraw- Hill.
China is the dominant player. The country is on track to add 562 coal-fired plants - nearly half the world total of plants expected to come online in the next eight years. India could add 213such plants; the US, 72. ( See chart below.)
Altogether, those three nations are set to add up to 327,000 megawatts by 2012 - three quarters of the new capacity in the global pipeline and roughly equal to the output of today's US coal-fired generating fleet.
The new coal plants from the three nations would burn about 900 million extra tons of coal each year. That, in turn, would emit in the neighborhood of 2.5 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere, Dr. Schmidt estimates.
"I'm not hugely optimistic we are going to slow the rate of carbon emission overall any time soon," says Schmidt of the Goddard institute. "If this sort of thing continues unchecked, we won't be arguing about climate change in 2100, because the changes will be all too obvious."
But several uncertainties remain. First, not all of the plants may be built. In the US, for example, local opposition may halt construction of some of the 100 coal-fired plants now in various stages of development. According to Mr. Bergesen's numbers, 72 plants could be added, the basis for the Monitor's estimates.
Another uncertainty: Slightly less than half of the new plants Platts forecasts for China and India have an official start date. If only those plants with start dates are built, then the expected emissions from the three nations would total only 1.2 billion tons of CO2, still more than double the required reduction from Kyoto. But that estimate is conservative, experts say, because Chinese and Indian leaders face few political barriers to power-plant construction and big demands for more power.
Efficiency a key
Although US coal-fired plants are far more efficient than those in China or India, all three countries, presumably, would install state-of-the-art technology. The Monitor's estimates are based on the assumption that the new plants in all three nations will be 10 percent more efficient than today's US average - a conservative estimate, experts say.
The third uncertainty involves new technology. Having rejected Kyoto, President Bush says the US will pursue its own policy of voluntary carbon reductions and conduct research into technologies like "carbon sequestration" - burying CO2 rather than emitting it. To do that, the US Department of Energy hopes to develop new technologies by 2012 that would economically capture the greenhouse gas before it leaves the power plant.
One approach - called Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) technology - aims to siphon off CO2 before it's sent up the stack. The largest US power company, American Electric Power in Columbus, Ohio, plans to build at least one commercial IGCC plant by 2010. Another coal-burning power company, Cinergy, in Cincinnati, this month said it also would build an IGCC plant.
But funding for a key billion-dollar federal IGCC experimental program called FutureGen is lagging. And unless the US sets a limit on CO2 emissions that creates a market for carbon-reducing technology, there is little financial incentive to invest in such technology, experts say. As a result, the technology appears unlikely to be deployed in time to make much difference in the coming surge of power-plant construction.
Without such technology, the impact on climate by the new coal plants would be significant, though not entirely unanticipated. They would boost CO2 emissions from fossil fuels by about 14 percent by 2012, Schmidt estimates. That's within the 1 to 2 percent annual range for CO2 growth expected in "high-growth" scenarios put forward by climate scientists. But it does not fall into the "maximum" scenario they use to evaluate the worst-case impact of greenhouse gases.
The power of six
"The point is that a relatively small number of countries holds the fate of the planet in their hands in terms of climate change," says David Hawkins, director of the Natural Resources Defense Council's climate center. "If the five or six countries building all these power plants were to come together to develop a strategy for carbon capture applied to coal, it would be a huge step toward cutting global warming."
Energy security is one factor driving the shift. With its 250-year supply of coal, the US is often called the "Saudi Arabia of coal." China, with similarly huge reserves, is even planning to convert coal into synthetic fuel for cars - even though such processes typically produce large amounts of greenhouse gases.
Coal's low price has been a powerful incentive, too. Chinese authorities are pushing for cleaner power. But gas pipelines in China aren't fully utilized because of that fuel's higher cost, experts say. And in the US, utility companies are shifting focus from natural gas to coal instead.
"There has been an abrupt about-face," says Robert McIlvaine, who heads his own Northfield, Ill., information company that tracks the construction of coal power plants globally. "Utilities that would not consider a coal-fired plant a year or two ago are now moving forward with coal-fired projects."
With natural gas prices expected to continue rising, 58 other nations have 340 new coal-fired plants in various stages of development. They are expected to go online in a decade or so. Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Thailand, and Turkey are all planning significant new coal-fired power additions. Germany also plans to build eight coal plants with 6,000 megawatts capacity.
But China is the key. "The Chinese will surpass the coal-fired generating capacity and the CO2 emissions of the US in the next couple of years," Mr. McIlvaine says.
Hit by blackouts and power restrictions for 18 months, China has been scrambling to relieve that pressure. Scores of unauthorized power projects about which little is known have sprouted nationwide - along with hundreds of official projects, McIlvaine says. Because of this, even careful estimates could be low, both he and Bergesen say.
"Environmental optimists were assuming the world was going to switch to gas, but when you're short of gas you use your own coal," says Philip Andrews-Speed, a China energy expert at the University of Dundee, in Scotland. "What you're seeing with China and the others is the cheapness and security of coal just overwhelming the desire to be clean."

COAL'S KNOCKOUT BLOW TO KYOTO: By 2012, expected cuts in greenhouse-gas emissions under the Kyoto treaty will be swamped by emissions from a surge of new coal-fired plants built in China, India, and the United States
SOURCES: UDI-PLATT'S, US ENERGY INFORMATION ADMINISTRATION, AND INDUSTRY ESTIMATES; SCOTT WALLACE - STAFF http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html
 
Last edited:

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
That green technology will be negated by the shear quantity of coal fire plants.

Yes and I wish I had that stat on how many they are currently building.

Get it through your heads. If ANY Green Technology impedes China's economy, China will simply not comply.

THEY DON'T CARE... THEY ARE LAUGHING AT YOU.

The Kyoto Group showed weakness wrt China. Bad move.