Cuba-Bolivia, maybe Canada should get involved

#juan

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I think not said:
#juan said:
I think not said:
#juan said:
I think not said:
#juan said:
ITN wrote:
That's good news Jersay, keep aligning yourselves with the likes of Cuba and North Korea, soon you will be referred to as Kanada.

Maybe ITN, you can show me a country in South America that has found success in aligning themselves with the U.S.. I'm damned if I can find one.

Argentina and Brazil come to mind.

I take it that you think of Argentina as a success. Brazil is hardly a shining example of the U.S.'s wonderful influence. Then, what country is.

Canada

Canada is doing her best to stay out from under the corrupt, stifling, control and influence of American big business. American big business runs the U.S. and would run the world if we let them.

Despite your conspiracy theories that corporations run the world, even if it were true, Canada would be unable to do anything about it, be happy both our countries have prospered due to trade that continues unhindered despite the nonsense from the fringe left.

In my mind, stealing five billion dollars would definitely hinder trade wouln't you say? The fringe left as you call it, about 70 percent of Canadians, were against the stupid war in Iraq, just like most Americans today. Let me see, who is wrong here? I think it is you.
 

I think not

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#juan said:
n my mind, stealing five billion dollars would definitely hinder trade wouln't you say? The fringe left as you call it, about 70 percent of Canadians, were against the stupid war in Iraq, just like most Americans today. Let me see, who is wrong here? I think it is you.

The fringe left is not 70% of the Canadian population, although some of you wish it were the case, thankfully it is far from it. And btw, the $5 Billion wasn't stolen from Canadians, it's a tariff that Americans end up paying for and Canadian corporations paid the tariff or are you all of sudden in support of "big business"? And why bring up Iraq? Can't make a point on the topic?
 

#juan

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The fringe left is not 70% of the Canadian population, although some of you wish it were the case, thankfully it is far from it. And btw, the $5 Billion wasn't stolen from Canadians, it's a tariff that Americans end up paying for and Canadian corporations paid the tariff or are you all of sudden in support of "big business"? And why bring up Iraq? Can't make a point on the topic?

A majority of Canadians were against the war or we would be there.

The five billion dollars was an illegal tariff. An illegal tariff as far as I'm concerned is theft. The other consequence was the forty odd thousand people thrown out of work because of the illegal tariffs.

You don't like to talk about Iraq? Sorry, I should know better. Cheers
 

I think not

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#juan said:
A majority of Canadians were against the war or we would be there.

The five billion dollars was an illegal tariff. An illegal tariff as far as I'm concerned is theft. The other consequence was the forty odd thousand people thrown out of work because of the illegal tariffs.

You don't like to talk about Iraq? Sorry, I should know better. Cheers

You would of been there if you had the Conservatives in power, don't kid yourself, and from the looks of it, that appears to be very doable, kind of throws your 70% figure out the window, doesn't it?.

As far as I'm concerned Canadian corporations paid for the tariff and subsequently the American consumer, unless you got a bill in the mail, you're spinning to suit your perceptions.

I'll talk about Iraq, pick a thread, there's about 400 of them devoted to Iraq and Bush.
 

Finder

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my 2 cents

I don't have any problem with Hugo or any other leader who has been elected. Castro, I think some of the things he has done have done wonders for Cuba, but at the same time he is no Democrat by any stretch of the meaning. The princibles of "Democratic Centrialism" which is almost as bad as FPTP in my view arn't even followed properly by Castro, and "Democratic Centrialism" is supposed to be the centre piece of any Marxist Socialist State/Communist state.

Besides his un-democratic traits Castro is an internationists and has helped many nations such as South Africa, Angola, countless African nations and has even offered aid to the USA in ways of Docs for the inner cities and humanatarian relief after the last hurrican.

Anyhow I'd feel this way for any small nation with limited resources to be so out going when it comes to international aid and friendship. I think Canada should have a hand in these Latin American programs. Then again I've always felt that Canada should have a better eye on Cuba itself, and try to push and nudge Castro in further democratic reforms in a postive way extead of negitive ways such as the Americans do.
 

Finder

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Re: RE: Cuba-Bolivia, maybe Canada should get involved

jimmoyer said:
That's a very balanced way to look at it.

I really wish Canada would communicate with Cuba even more. Canada trys to side step these democratic questions. Yes we are a friend of Cuba and as a Cuban Trading partner and friend we really should nudge them harder on democratic princibles of government. Um and not just capitalism, look at how bad China is!

I think if we influance Left wing dicatorships with a Left wing democratic alternative they may listen... or at least start thinking it may be worth discussing.

But then again this would be Canada showing some balls internationally and Canada won't do that... :( I think you'd need to be a regional power or a super power to have that sort of influance anyhow.
 

FiveParadox

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Well, Canada could always help Cuba to create some "useless" democratic institutions, under the premise that it would appease the call for democracy. Think something along the lines of a watered-down Senate.

History has proven, in my opinion, that such "watered-down" institutions eventually come to begin asserting their own authority over the Sovereign, or dictator, or whatever; think Bill C-1 in the House, and I think you'd know what I mean.

It would have to be a gradual transition, in my opinion.
 

jimmoyer

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Well, Canada could always help Cuba to create some "useless" democratic institutions, under the premise that it would appease the call for democracy. Think something along the lines of a watered-down Senate.

History has proven, in my opinion, that such "watered-down" institutions eventually come to begin asserting their own authority over the Sovereign, or dictator, or whatever;....
-----------------------------fiveparadox--------------

That is a very insightful thought.

Create useless institutions that have some veneer
of democracy that eventually do assert real
authority when the dictator dies.

This idea is seeing its application in much of the'
Middle East. Check out the useless elections held
in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and even of women voting
in local elections in Iran.

This "useless" excercise will grow in stature.
 

Finder

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Well currently Cuba does have local elected and federal appointed government which is appointed by the local government. Not sure if they have changed this system since I last went to Cuba in the late 90's.

But really with the CCP pretty much fully in control and with Castro a complete dictator you can't do very much. What Castro or the CCP has to relieze is to first split the party. One into social democrats or democratic socialists and that of the real communists. This isn';t too hard to do since social democrats, socialists and communists can find some common ground when it comes to taxes, and spending and what not. From there you introduce the new parties into the next election or power share with them until then. Have a friend/nice election and have all parties in that government.

Slowly this type of democracy would take root and other right wing parties would slowly evolve to accept this system and become infrancized.

Anyhow this is a hybrid mostly of what the Mongolian Communist party. But instead of keeping a communist party it split itself but mostly the left wing faction completely turned into a democratic socialist party/labour party based on western guilde socialism or welfare state traditions exstead of marxist-leninism.

Anyhow there many ways to do it without starving people, or sabre rattling.
 

jimmoyer

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Anyhow there many ways to do it without starving people, or sabre rattling.
------------------------------------Finder------

True enough, Finder.

But the enraged liberal left paradoxically
wants suspect American capitalists to lift the
embargo ?

That's irony.

And saber rattling towards Cuba has been pretty
toothless according to the Miami Cuban community.

And when Carter sought to open relations to Cuba,
his thanks from the almighty baseball Poet
Castro was to release all the hardened criminals
in his dire prisons.

And all we get out of it is Al Pacino in Scarface
regaling us to take a look at "my little friend."

Anyway that's all of the past, full of crap, every
which way you look at it.

And so what you're saying of creating "useless"
institutions that grow in stature is a wonderful
idea, currently being incarnated in the Middle East.
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Cuba-Bolivia, maybe Canada should get involved

jimmoyer said:
But the enraged liberal left paradoxically
wants suspect American capitalists to lift the
embargo ?

That's irony.

I can think of a few other things to call it but I guess it will have to do.

jimmoyer said:
And saber rattling towards Cuba has been pretty
toothless according to the Miami Cuban community.

They've been advocating his assasination for decades.

jimmoyer said:
And all we get out of it is Al Pacino in Scarface
regaling us to take a look at "my little friend."

That phrase cracks me up everytime I hear it. :lol:
 

Finder

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jimmoyer, I agree with you Castro is nearly impossible to work with, but Cuba may not be a Athens, but it sure isn't a North Korea. A lot of what many American's believe about Cuba is largely prapaganda, of course Castro doesn't help the matter by being a Dictator. But Cuba has improved much since there revolution, which the american government ignores.

Clinton had started a process to which a future normalization with Cuba seemed to be evident. But it would seem as if Bush has gone back to the cold war.

I think in the end it will take a Republican to re-engage, I can't see a Democrat actually going that far, even though some may believe in it the Democrats as a party can't because as soon as they would they would fear they would be seen as "soft on communism" or "soft on dictators"

Of course another problem here is the UN. The UN should become a body which pushes for democracies in nations like Cuba. Which have electoral traditions set in place, but because of the backwards use of "democratic centrialism" or just plainly a dicator who converts this system to his own ends should have the force of the UN on them.

BTW here's a blurb on Democratic Centrialism. It's a Marxist-Leninist Theory of Government after a revolution. It's supposed to be a bottom up government. Every level of government debates and decide's what the goals, policy and so on for the nation is and then passes it up to the next level. they debate and what not and then bring it to the centrial committee who then is supposed follow what the lower governments have already passed and debated over. Of course by this time the magority wins and the minority in the interest of the magority and the nation are supposed to follow this plan to the teeth.

Stop me if you already think this sounds like a Rousseau like idea? Because it is.

Anyhow thats in Theory. Even in theory I don't like it because the minority is forced to agree with the magority in the end. In practice it is top down. The Centrial committee decides policy or just pretty much the chairman, presdent whatever you want to call him and it's brought down to the other levels, but only to enforce or rubber stamp. Completely usless system and very undemocratic.

Thats one of the MANY problems with democratic centrialism is it is very easy to pervert!

See, if Canada nudge and got involved more, we could help them set up new forms of government which could be seen as more democratic. I think once you do that it is possible for everything just to fall in place.

Of course I'd prefer a split in the CCP. There were talks awhile ago of a possible split in the Chiness Communist party to introduce a more democratic government. But you also already have "fractional" groups in the assembly but they are completely inert and don't have freedom to act truly independitly.

If you split the CP though of either Cuba or Chine these are people who already have posistion and power mostly. You would have to use them to introduce democracy, at least at first.

I'm sure many individuals now in both the CP of Cuba and China are good people who just want to serve there nation. Some may not even be communists, some might just be social democrats, other conservative nationalists, others liberals. These parties would surely form.


Blah
 

jimmoyer

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Actually, ITN, I really butchered that Scarface
quote.

Say hello !

SAY HELLO TO MY little friend.

Rat tat tat tat tat
rat ta tat ta ta rat ta tat tat tat

And Finder, you're right about the propaganda, but
don't let that ever make you forget what Castro
in his youthful vigor, this lover of Hemingway and
Baseball, this darling of the Hollywood intelligentsia
said - rather screamed out to the Russians:

i don't care.

DO IT !

If ever one leader had his finger on the button, that
was the guy who had less qualms than Kruschev or
Kennedy.

Maybe you don't want to believe that.

Maybe it's all just propaganda.

SAY HELLO !!
 

twotoques

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twotoques wrote:
American home builders want to buy Canadian lumber, but it's too expensive because of the ridiculous tariffs imposed by the US gov. at the request of American lumber producers.

This isn't true. At the Home Depot a few minutes drive away, there are giant stacks of lumber with "BC Lumber" emblazened on the side.

Well, true or not, that's what American representatives of home builders groups have said in news interviews on a couple of US networks.
 

I think not

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Finder said:
A lot of what many American's believe about Cuba is largely prapaganda, of course Castro doesn't help the matter by being a Dictator.

What Americans believe about Castro is what you said, what more do you need? Which part is propaganda? That Castro and Che ran around South America churning little revolutions to join the cause? That he has imprisoned and murdered his own people? That he permitted Soviet missiles in Cuba within striking range of the US? Which part of all this is propaganda?