Convert or Die

[Dexter Sinister]

That last part of the above quote is interesting: "...if Job had known what we know, he'd have been justifiably furious."

Not true. You're assuming that story doesn't simulate LIFE. We never know what's behind it all.
We never know. Just like Job, in that story. We never know. Metaphor.

You misunderstand. As readers of that story, we know what's going on behind the scenes in Job's life, Job doesn't.

I have no issues with a god who allows suffering, but I do have some issues with a god who's an active agent in causing it.

 

[selfactivated]

You misunderstand. As readers of that story, we know what's going on behind the scenes in Job's life, Job doesn't.

I have no issues with a god who allows suffering, but I do have some issues with a god who's an active agent in causing it.

As a little girl Job was one of the first stories we were taught in CCD. I have plenty of issues with a God that turns a deaf ear to the screams of a child that adored him. I kept thinking in my tiny little head. Im a chosen one, like Job. I must endure all this so that God knows I love him. Pfffffft **** that! That God is just a mean spirited unfeeling demond! And his followers tend to be just as unfeeling and mean spirited. There are many faces to Spirit and I HATE that face!

 

[jimmoyer]

You misunderstand. As readers of that story, we know what's going on behind the scenes in Job's life, Job doesn't.
---------------------------------------Dexter Sinister---------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe there's a miscomunication on my part. What I'm trying to say is that the story of Job not
knowing what is behind it all --- is essentially a story of you and me, of all of us. That story is
a metaphor. The literary conceit of the reader knowing who is behind all the trouble is not germane
to the real point, the only meaningful point ----which is we do NOT KNOW why. Emphasizing the
literary conceit of the story over its real purpose devalues the whole meaning of the story.
The real point again, is that we don't know why. And if we think the story's emphasis is like some
Greek capricious God toying with us, then we have devalued the story to the level of those Greek
myths. And what if the Gods are toying with us ?

Think about that last question.

Do we still know why they are toying with us ?

We still don't know, do we?

Even if you don't believe in a God, or even believe in a capricious one, then you must think
the universe is toying with us in its inhuman way.

And not to pack too much more variety of points that this book of Job begs us to consider:

You wonder what automatons we would be without the contrast of suffering and happiness ?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

And what if the Gods are toying with us ?
...
You wonder what automatons we would be without the contrast of suffering and happiness ?

Actually no, I don't wonder that anymore, I've thought about that quite a lot, and I understand the need for the contrast. It's why I don't have an issue with a god or gods who allow suffering, as long as they're not actively causing it, as in Job's case. Most human suffering is self-inflicted, in the sense that we do it to each other. Nature inflicts the rest, in the form of disease and injury and so on. It all makes sense, or at a minimum is explicable naturalistically, once you understand how evolution works and what natural selection's real priorities are. The cosmos, as far as I can tell, is utterly indifferent to us. All the environments but one it provides in this little solar system would be rapidly fatal to us without heroic technological and scientific efforts to protect us, and any other environments that might not be so inimical are currently unreachably far away. It certainly doesn't appear that the place was built with us in mind.

And if the Gods, granting that any exist, are toying with us, I think that would disqualify them from deserving any respect or worship, and in fact would disqualify them as Gods in the first place. They'd be like a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass. In which case I'd like to have a few sharp words with them about their thoughtless follies.

 

[L Gilbert]

The cosmos, as far as I can tell, is utterly indifferent to us. All the environments but one it provides in this little solar system would be rapidly fatal to us without heroic technological and scientific efforts to protect us, and any other environments that might not be so inimical are currently unreachably far away. It certainly doesn't appear that the place was built with us in mind.

Egg Zachery. It's waaaaaaaaaay more likely we developed to survive in this neighborhood.

 

[L Gilbert]

And if the Gods, granting that any exist, are toying with us, I think that would disqualify them from deserving any respect or worship, and in fact would disqualify them as Gods in the first place. They'd be like a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass. In which case I'd like to have a few sharp words with them about their thoughtless follies.

That reminds me of this:

-The line seemed to stretch back forever. Hundreds of millions of souls,
waiting patiently for their turn before the throne. The date... Well, the
day is Judgment Day, so you won't find it on any calendar. The queue of
people winds its way down the mountain, through the valley and off into
the far distance. Everybody in the queue can see the final destination at
the mountain peak. A hundred miles away, they can see it perfectly
clearly. And they wait, moving forward a couple of steps at a time.
Towards God, and the Decision.
At the head of the we find a young Christian, wearing an expression of awe
and joy. Behind him, an atheist, looking slightly astonished, examining a
leaf she has picked from a nearby bush, trying to decide if it is real or
not. Heaven, she thinks, should be whiter, with more dry ice swirling
about; not look like a Welsh hillside on a hot day.
The Christian steps forward for judgment.
"Hello Martin". God's voice is calm and gentle as He speaks.
"Erm.. Hello. Lord". Martin's voice is nervous, as a dozen emotions fight
for room in his mind at once.
"This is it. This is where I decide what shall happen to you, Martin. In
life, you were a Christian". It was a statement, not a question.
"I was, Lord. I still am. I have been all my life. I have dedicated myself
to your service."
"Tell me, Martin. Why were you a Christian? Why did you believe in me?"
"Why? Well... Because you are God! I've always believed in you."
"That is not what I want to know. Why did you believe?"
"Because I knew it was true. You were always there for me. You helped me
through the bad times. You answered my prayers. You gave me the strength
and courage to get through life. I could feel your presence with me all
the time."
"No."
"Pardon, Lord?"
"I said no, Martin. I have never helped you. You seemed to be doing
perfectly alright by yourself. I heard your prayers, but never answered a
single one. Your belief in me definitely helped you on occasion, but I
have never intervened in your life. Certainly, you gave me credit for all
the good times, but they were your own doing, not mine. You did not feel
my presence, because it cannot be felt. The only actual proof you have
that I exist at all is here and now. Again, tell me why you believed."
"I.. I had faith, Lord. Since I was a child I have been to church, prayed
and sang every Sunday. My faith in you never wavered. Even when my mother
died, I had faith that it was your will, that it was a blessing from you
that she passed peacefully. I was raised to believe in you, and as I grew
I read the Bible for myself, and learnt of your miracles, and all the
saints and martyrs, and the good done in your name. I read the works of
great philosophers and they merely strengthened my faith. I knew it was
true. "
"No, Martin. Your mother died of natural causes, and she died peacefully
because of the actions of the hospital. I watched and saw, but that is
all. As for the rest - the saints, martyrs and philosophers had similar
reasons for their belief in me, just as dictators and murderers have had.
People have done great good and great harm in my name, and in the names of
a thousand false gods. The Bible was written about me, not by me, and was
written by people who had similar reasons as you for their belief, just as
a thousand other Holy Books have been written about the false gods, or
different versions of myself. I ask for the third and final time. Why did
you believe in me?"
Martin looked shocked and ashen, but pulled himself together. His Lord was
testing him, and he had lived his entire life for this moment.
"I believed because I could feel in my heart it was true. You sent your
son to die for us, and I gladly accepted Him as my saviour. I.. I just
knew it was true, and now that I see you, my faith has been vindicated. I
no longer need to believe - I can see for myself the truth and majesty of
my religion."
Quietly, God spoke again. "Martin, you have impressed me". He paused.
"But... not enough. You believe because you were taught to believe. You
believe because you mistakenly attribute to me anything positive that has
happened in your life, and discount anything negative. You believe because
it is comforting to believe, and because you are frightened of the
consequences of my not existing. You believe because... you believe. I'm
sorry, Martin, but there is no place for you here."
God gestured briefly with his fingers, and Martin vanished. His shadow
lingered where he had stood, fading rapidly to nothingness.
The atheist, somewhat shaken by what she had just seen, stepped forward.
"Hello Eve. I like that name."
"Ah. Hello, God. Thanks", said Eve, not entirely sure how to address a
being she had, until now, considered fictional.
"Yes, you may call me God. Eve, in life you were an atheist. You doubted
my existence, even objecting to the very concept". Again, a statement, not
a question.
"Yes, I did. Clearly, I was mistaken."
"Clearly. Tell me, are you still an atheist?"
"I suppose not. I'm not a Christian, Jew or anything else. I guess I'd
have to be called an involuntary theist. Ah ha ha", Eve laughed nervously,
hoping the very real and solid-looking deity before her had a good sense
of humour.
"Mmm... Tell me, Eve. Why did you not believe in me?". God's voice was
kind and gentle once more.
"At one point I did. I was raised as a Christian, and often went to
church, and prayed every night before bed. When I was feeling down I would
read the Bible. The act of reading it seemed to comfort me, even though
the words themselves didn't seem much help. I think, like Martin, I
believed because I believed."
"And then you lost your faith? You decided I did not exist, and you knew
better than those around you? You knew better than your pastor and
family?" The voice was losing its kindly edge a little.
"That is one way of looking at it, yes. What I believed did not seem to
fit with other things I knew. The Bible clearly could not be literally
true, word for word. I knew from biology and paleontology that humans had
evolved like all other life, and were not special creations. How life or
the universe began, I still don't know, but could not just merely accept
'God did it' as an explanation. I learned about other religions, and how
they all claimed a monopoly on truth, happiness and morality. I saw the
good done in your name, but I also saw the oppression, genocide and wars.
I saw that if people were in need, it was up to us to deal with it, not to
rely on heavenly aid.". Eve felt a little braver, but was expecting the
traditional thunderbolt any moment. The people behind her, now at the head
of the queue, were slowly moving backwards, trying not to draw attention
to themselves.
"Yet here you are, before your God, on the final Day of Judgment. Why
should I allow you in - a heretic, a disbeliever, an infidel - when your
predecessor, devout and faithful, full of love for me, was consigned to
Oblivion? Tell me why. Justify your entry to my Paradise."
Eve straightened up, looking God in the face. "Why should you let me in?
Because I am better person than you."
If Eve had looked round, she would have seen the entire line of souls,
perfectly still and wide-eyed, staring at her in shock.
"What did you say?", enquired God. His voice, though barely audible,
caused tremors in the mountain.
Surprised at still being alive, her mouth dry, Eve continued. "I said,
because I am a better person. You have shown it yourself already. You told
Martin that you watched as his mother became ill and died. You destroyed
him for believing for no good reason, when his whole life had been shaped
by that belief. Your preachers on Earth encourage unquestioning faith, yet
you do not tell us whether that is what you want. You give people no
rational basis for belief, and then when they make up their own that is
not good enough for you. You listen to our prayers, yet do not answer,
leaving people to rationalise events for themselves. People kill and
slaughter over trivial differences in doctrine, and you look on. In the
churches and temples raised in your glory, children are mentally and
physically abused - in your so-called House! All over the world,
throughout history, people have murdered each other for believing the
wrong thing about God, for believing in the wrong God, or for not
believing in any God. The poorest and most helpless people are
relentlessly targeted, being told to give what little they have now, for
the promise of eternal bliss later. When a person is at his lowest ebb,
that is when the smiling missionaries appear, knowing that his life will
probably get better naturally and they can give you the credit. In your
name, the ends justify the means as long as souls are saved". Eve paused
for breath, and continued.
"And you? All-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing? You just sit here and you
watch it all... Any person in this line, had they your power, would show
greater compassion and morality. You may be God, but you are far from
Godliness."
God smiled. "Are you finished? Good. Eve, you have impressed me". He
paused. Eve held her breath, shoulders tensing.
"You have impressed me a great deal. You may have believed in me for all
the wrong reasons, but you disbelieved for the right reasons. You led a
good life, and used the intelligence I give to everybody in the correct
way. Even though you came to a conclusion about me that was hopelessly
wrong, you came to it in a way that cannot be faulted. You may pass into
paradise, Eve, with my blessing."
Eve did not step forward. Instead, she spoke once more. "No, I will not".
"No? You refuse Heaven? You defy my will?" The smile had left God's face
again.
"Do you think I would want to spend one more minute, let alone eternity,
in your company? You allow people to suffer, sometimes for their entire
lives, for no purpose, and then judge them on their reaction. You hide
yourself from the world and allow your creations to persecute each other
over differing interpretations of the lack of evidence. You see all the
pain and ignorance caused in your name, and just sit there as this queue
grows daily? And then you have the audacity to punish good people for
believing in you 'for the wrong reasons'?"
"Eve. Enough of this. The gates to Paradise are open to you. Be silent
now, and enter."
"No. If it is a choice between oblivion and an eternity with a monster
like you, I gladly choose oblivion. I ask only one thing, before you
destroy me."
"And what is that?" asked God, getting impatient.
"That, if you can, you look me in the eyes as you do it."


Shortly afterwards, the next person in the queue stepped towards the top
of the mountain, and Judgment.

This story is written by Adrian Barnett and taken from his website
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/athe...eism_index.htm

 

[selfactivated]

Actually no, I don't wonder that anymore, I've thought about that quite a lot, and I understand the need for the contrast. It's why I don't have an issue with a god or gods who allow suffering, as long as they're not actively causing it, as in Job's case. Most human suffering is self-inflicted, in the sense that we do it to each other. Nature inflicts the rest, in the form of disease and injury and so on. It all makes sense, or at a minimum is explicable naturalistically, once you understand how evolution works and what natural selection's real priorities are. The cosmos, as far as I can tell, is utterly indifferent to us. All the environments but one it provides in this little solar system would be rapidly fatal to us without heroic technological and scientific efforts to protect us, and any other environments that might not be so inimical are currently unreachably far away. It certainly doesn't appear that the place was built with us in mind.

And if the Gods, granting that any exist, are toying with us, I think that would disqualify them from deserving any respect or worship, and in fact would disqualify them as Gods in the first place. They'd be like a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass. In which case I'd like to have a few sharp words with them about their thoughtless follies.

Thank You very much for speaking my heart! I dont worship gods I honour deities that represent all the things in ME that I Love. Fae with her 3 faces and deep love and gentleness and Pan my old horned goat that represents the creative and playful and sassiness in my own soul. My goddess/god is not hurtfull or mean or demanding, they are representations of myself and the best bits of me that I aspire to make even more strong in my life! A god that demands a sacrifice of a child has no respect of mine! No deity of mine would ask for more than a glass of honey mead and a strawberry and ONLY if you could spare it! Pan loves a good whistle and Fae a tad of honey .......sorry I ramble.

 

[look3467]

Mankind’s sources other than the one inspired by "the" God are mere fabrications of the human mind.

How can anybody understand "a" god, if there are no revealations of that god?

Now,...... we are arguing the God of Job and grabbling to understand the reasons for his sufferings’.

So, we extrapolate all information outside of the God of Job and used it to condemn Jobs God and only by human reasoning that's all we can do.

Clearly there are revelations of "the" God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Job, of Moses and many others that reveal the true nature of Himself.

The whole creation, its condition and its outcome is all there.

If we are to compare apples with oranges, it won’t work.

Let us study the apple and then argue for or against what is said about the apple with its own words.

Without knowing who the true God is, we are left to our own imaginations.

The Words of this thread “Covert or die” stems from the human reasoning stand point .

Many take it to mean that unless we convert to some sort of religion, meaning that by that religion we live or die.

Not so! Conversion is of the heart, a spiritual thing. If not converted, it is as dead.

Dead with respect to God: Alive in the flesh yes, but separated from the true God.

Consider the tablets of stone. They are stone because they are ridged and the words written on them cannot be broken or else.

But the stone that pulverized (Made of non effect) that tablet of stone (Jesus), is a living stone, given a heart of flesh that can be touched by the hand of God.

That touch then, is the conversion, whereby the soul will never die.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Clearly there are revelations of "the" God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Job, of Moses and many others that reveal the true nature of Himself.

That's really the heart of the issue for me. It is simply not true in my life to say that "Clearly there are revelations..." It is far from clear, and my logic and reason and everything I know about how the cosmos works offer plenty of reasons for strongly doubting the existence of any deity, never mind one that has any interest in us.

Bertrand Russell, famous for being an atheist among many other things, was challenged by a believer over what he would say if at the end he found himself at the Pearly Gates after all. His response: "You didn't give us enough evidence." My sentiments exactly.

 

[look3467]

That's really the heart of the issue for me. It is simply not true in my life to say that "Clearly there are revelations..." It is far from clear, and my logic and reason and everything I know about how the cosmos works offer plenty of reasons for strongly doubting the existence of any deity, never mind one that has any interest in us.

Bertrand Russell, famous for being an atheist among many other things, was challenged by a believer over what he would say if at the end he found himself at the Pearly Gates after all. His response: "You didn't give us enough evidence." My sentiments exactly.

That is what I have been saying all along Dexter, is that human reasoning will never give us the right answers.
Many think that God should hit them on the head with a 2x4 in order to believe that there really is a God.
When it stems not from human reasoning: that we believe: but by faith.

When you get in your car to go somewhere, you just get in and turn the key and the car starts.
What you have is a faith that trusts the car will start.

When the bible, the words inspired by God say, that the vehicle that is Jesus will start every time, and you trust in it: that is exercising faith.

And faith is something that is unseen.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So, if I say I have faith, then I am worthy of a tial to prove it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." The doubter's mantra. But let's not get into the game of swapping Bible quotes.

... human reasoning will never give us the right answers.

To me, that can only mean the right answers will never be available to me. I don't know of any other way that works reliably to understand anything.

What you have is a faith that trusts the car will start.

But that's based on evidence. It's always started before, even though it's 15 years old, because it's a Toyota and because I take good care of it, so it's rational to conclude it'll continue to do so. I also know that someday it won't, and I'll have to replace it. I also have faith the sun will rise tomorrow morning, because it has every other morning of my life and I understand the physics that makes it happen, so it's rational to expect things to continue to work that way. But that's not the meaning of faith you're using when you switch over to saying things like "faith is something that is unseen." That's a very different meaning of the word. There it means belief without evidence, which strikes me as deeply irrational, a ticket to nowhere. I can't get on that train.

 

[look3467]

To me, that can only mean the right answers will never be available to me. I don't know of any other way that works reliably to understand anything.>>>Dexter

That is a true statment only if: the Lord opens not your spiritual eyes.

But it also says this:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hearing is the same as reading, and studying the word and in time, the Lord will open up your understanding.
God is not one to cast off any unbeliever, because He had concluded all in unbelief.

By so doing , no one could say, "see here how good I am", and " I worked for my salvation".

No one even Jesus could lay claim to that, only God Himself.

There is allot of good stuff hidden in the words of the bible.
Here is a parable:

Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

There are many pearls (Nuggetts) hidden in the bible, and when found they become a great blessing to the seeker.

Seek your answers in the bible, and let the Spirit of God lead you there in. Don't mind me,1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (Spiritual things, not carnal).

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Seek your answers in the bible, and let the Spirit of God lead you there in. Don't mind me,1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (Spiritual things, not carnal).

Peace>>>AJ

I don't mind you at all, I still think you're one of the good guys, and I do understand the proper context of that citation from 1 Thessalonians. I've read the Bible more than once, in several versions (the King James, the Revised Standard version, and the Jerusalem Bible), and read a lot of exegetical analyses of it by people who've probably forgotten more about it than I'll ever know, but, to put it in your terms, God has not seen fit to remove the scales from my eyes. In my terms, I don't see that there are scales to be removed.

What I see is that I removed the scales myself. I grew up in a very religious household and was once a believer. I am now apostate. I got to that point because the more I learned and studied and thought about these matters, the less sense they made to me, and I finally gave it all up. I could not sustain my belief in the face of the evidence, or more correctly, the lack of it. I began to see that much of the history of the western world in the last few centuries can be understood as the Christian church retreating from making empirical claims about the nature of the world. The Christian church has nothing like the secular authority it used to have, largely I think because the scientific revolution that started with people like Copernicus and Galileo has shown most of its empirical claims to be nonsense.

There was a time when the Christian church could have had me at least imprisoned, if not executed, for some of the thoughts I've expressed in this thread. Obviously I think modern times are an improvement over that, but there are still places where I'd be excoriated for them. I doubt, for instance, that any professed atheist could win election to public office anywhere on this continent. They wouldn't be burned at the stake for it, but they'd never get elected either, and they'd probably get loads of manure dumped on their lawns and stones thrown through their windows. I'm sure you wouldn't do that, but there are many who would. In fact there was a guy in the city where I live who had that happen to him merely for missing a final-play field goal that would have won a football game if he'd made it. I think most people take their religion far more seriously than they do football games, so I can't imagine what they'd have done to him if it were widely known that he was an atheist.

Atheism is at least as defensible a position as any form of theism, and in the continuing absence of any convincing evidence that it's wrong and the theists are right, it's my position.

 

[L Gilbert]

lol
Ditto that.
I no more expect Yahweh to send me to hell, heaven, limbo, or purgatory than I expect Thor or Zeus to zap me with lightning or some big guy with a trident to surface and suck me into the water.

 

[L Gilbert]

........ Clearly there are revelations of "the" God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Job, of Moses and many others that reveal the true nature of Himself.

You mean there's a false nature to the critter?

The whole creation, its condition and its outcome is all there.

If we are to compare apples with oranges, it won’t work.

Let us study the apple and then argue for or against what is said about the apple with its own words.

So, you don't want faith to be investigated by science. Can't stand the light of day, huh?

Without knowing who the true God is, we are left to our own imaginations.

Knowing who the true god is, we are still left with our imaginings.

The Words of this thread “Covert or die” stems from the human reasoning stand point .

Many take it to mean that unless we convert to some sort of religion, meaning that by that religion we live or die.

Everyone dies. Sorry to bust yer bubble. You know, the dust to dust thing.

[quote]Conversion is of the heart, a spiritual thing. If not converted, it is as dead.

Dead with respect to God: Alive in the flesh yes, but separated from the true God.......[/quote]In my case, that's intentional because I have no need of a character from superstition in my life.

 

[look3467]

Dexter

Thanks for your honesty. Only you could tell it that way. I have not walked in your shoes, so it would be foolish of me to say that I have it right and you don’t.

But, it’s been a good discussion, and you’ve been kind and tactful.

There is however, one last scripture that I would share with you. And that has to do with the Gentles outside the Jewish belief system.

God selected the Jewish people to be the barer of His laws to the world, and as such had a special relationship with Him, while the Gentile world was out of the loop.

As for the Gentile world (The non-believers in the Jewish God) were at the pearl of their own laws.

In this verse I see the God of the Jews acknowledging His nature within the consciousness of the Gentile world of which is clearly demonstrated in your description of your views.

It reads:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

So, my friend, all is not lost!

And I am aware of that.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

You mean there's a false nature to the critter?>>>Gilbert

Yes! Can you believe that? It’s like God is hiding from you.

So, you don't want faith to be investigated by science. Can't stand the light of day, huh?>>>Gilbert

Why should I not want to? God is the great scientist and the great mathematician.

I mean, if I believe He is the creator, how could I deny Him that glory?

Knowing who the true god is, we are still left with our imaginings.>>>Gilbert

Let me rephrase that sentence: “we are left with our imaging’s not knowing who the true god is”.

Everyone dies. Sorry to bust yer bubble. You know, the dust to dust thing.>>>Gilbert

Does that not give evidence as to what realm you’re thinking in?

In my case, that's intentional because I have no need of a character from superstition in my life.>>>Gilbert

Your choice!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So, my friend, all is not lost!

Thank you, my friend, for your kind, gentle, and non-judgemental understanding. You should know that I've never thought all is lost. I've always known there is much I don't understand, that there are deep mysteries in this life that have defied the understanding of better minds than mine, so I've been careful to close no doors and burn no bridges. All I can do is try to work with what I think I know and understand. Obviously my knowledge and understanding are very different from yours, and both of us would immediately agree that the other is wrong about some pretty basic things. But in my view, that's okay too. It isn't given to any of us to have the whole truth, and I'm inclined to think that anyone who thinks he's got it all is a dangerous fool. We're all on a journey to someplace, I don't think any of us really know what the destination is, but I think we're all going to end up in the same place eventually.

That's why selfactivated keeps telling me I'm a pagan...

 

[jimmoyer]

Originally Posted by jimmoyer
And what if the Gods are toying with us ?
...
You wonder what automatons we would be without the contrast of suffering and happiness ?


Actually no, I don't wonder that anymore, I've thought about that quite a lot, and I understand the need for the contrast. It's why I don't have an issue with a god or gods who allow suffering, as long as they're not actively causing it, as in Job's case.

And if the Gods, granting that any exist, are toying with us, I think that would disqualify them from deserving any respect or worship, and in fact would disqualify them as Gods in the first place. They'd be like a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass. In which case I'd like to have a few sharp words with them about their thoughtless follies.
---------------------------------ABOVE is Dexter Sinister's response--------------------------------------------

I always thought the Book of Job's use of God's toying with Job was a literary conceit, a device
for the purpose of bringing up a far larger more important point. The toying itself is not the point at all
but rather a literary means to the bigger idea: THAT WE CAN NEVER KNOW WHY.

Even the toying itself is a metaphor for not knowing why ---- it certainly is no answer, and if the toying is treated
as an explanation, it certainly trivializes any deeper observation.

 

[look3467]

I always thought the Book of Job's use of God's toying with Job was a literary conceit, a device
for the purpose of bringing up a far larger more important point. The toying itself is not the point at all
but rather a literary means to the bigger idea: THAT WE CAN NEVER KNOW WHY.

Even the toying itself is a metaphor for not knowing why ---- it certainly is no answer, and if the toying is treated
as an explanation, it certainly trivializes any deeper observation>>>jimmoyer

The story of Job to my understanding is a picture (Similitude) of the coming Messiah.
It’s a story that the human mind can comprehend as far as suffering is concerned, but behind it is a spiritual message.
The spiritual message is that with Gods help we as humans through suffering are able to rise above all that is called human lusts of the flesh as is the heart of our souls above the flesh when God is in it.
The first man truly able to do that was the Messiah Jesus. After that, then the door was opened to all mankind.
Up and until Jesus, no man was able to accomplish that, except he being the Son of God.

Given all the circumstances of what is opposite to God and to further burden the soul, flesh was added, thereby making it impossible to keep a clear loyalty to God in sufferings.


The human soul has no strength to withstand all that, unless God was with us.

Jesus came to break the power of that hold on mankind and allowed us to be reconciled back to the Father by Him.

This is like if God asking: who will go down to earth and do a special work for me?
Jesus: send me Lord.
God: are you willing to leave all that you have here and go down to earth for me?
Jesus: I am
God: then go, I will prepare a body, a place and time for you.

A body:

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

A place:

Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Time:

Hab 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Actual:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This was the time 2,000 years ago at Calvary!

Peace>>>AJ