Convert or Die

gopher

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china said:
gopher :

Do you think gopher that a book will conquer the world ? So far all it does is seperates people into different camps and was/is a reason for thousands if not millions of killings. Christ promised to send an Advocat (and He did),The Holy Spirit ,not a book.


It's message of love and reconciliation was supposed to have been used to "conquer" the world.

But, as history shows, and as current news shows today, more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than for any other reason in history -- in fact, more so than the Koran!
 

gopher

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The Bible is mythology, that borrows heavily from other mythologies, and I've never seen a convincing case for giving it any special status.


If by this you mean, as an example, that there is no excuse for killing Muslims in its name then we are in accord. You have undoubtedly read my past posts in which I quoted philosopher Alan Watts when he said that more people have been killed (by Chrsitians) in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. Those who hate, those who kill in its name will eventually have their day of reckoning. It's just too bad that it couldn't happen today.
 

look3467

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It's message of love and reconciliation was supposed to have been used to "conquer" the world.

But, as history shows, and as current news shows today, more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than for any other reason in history -- in fact, more so than the Koran!

Jesus conquered the world with love and reconcilled us back to the Father.

How so, you ask? Read about the first Adam and the second Adam. Both are man of the flesh: one brought death and the other brought life.

Mankind, has to get ahold on life, then and only then will mankind change the world.

Peace>>>AJ
 

Dexter Sinister

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I have tasted of the real God's presence, and only He could make a difference to knowing Him.
I have no idea how to understand a statement like that, and I'm tempted to conclude that your life has been insufficiently troubled, though obviously I don't know enough about your life to justify such a conclusion. All I really know about is my own life. I grew up in a deeply religious household and as an uncritical child absorbed a lot of religious teaching as revealed truth. But as an adult... well, people I loved died way too young from accidents and injuries and illness, no prayer of mine was ever answered, no guidance was ever given, in any terms that made any sense to me, and I eventually gave up all religious belief essentially because it simply didn't work as advertized. I spent 30 years thinking and studying on matters of religious belief because I was deeply troubled and I'd been raised to believe it was important and could make a difference. And I finally concluded that it's not important and it won't make any real difference. As far as I can tell, I've had to work through my griefs and pains and losses by myself, with a little help from my friends. My parents weren't wrong about much, but that one I think they got completely wrong, and so has pretty much everybody else who's ever lived.

So I'm apostate, an atheist by conviction. No doubt there are those in the religious community who'd say God has not yet seen fit to remove the scales from my eyes. Maybe so, and I'd sure like to believe it's so, but I don't. Reality doesn't seem to have much to do with what I'd like to believe is true.
 
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look3467

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I have no idea how to understand a statement like that, and I'm tempted to conclude that your life has been insufficiently troubled, though obviously I don't know enough about your life to justify such a conclusion. All I really know about is my own life. I grew up in a deeply religious household and as an uncritical child absorbed a lot of religious teaching as revealed truth. But as an adult... well, people I loved died way too young from accidents and injuries and illness, no prayer of mine was ever answered, no guidance was ever given, in any terms that made any sense to me, and I eventually gave up all religious belief essentially because it simply didn't work as advertized. I spent 30 years thinking and studying on matters of religious belief because I was deeply troubled and I'd been raised to believe it was important and could make a difference. And I finally concluded that it's not important and it won't make any real difference. My parents weren't wrong about much, but that one I think they got completely wrong, and so has pretty much everybody else who's ever lived.

So I'm apostate, an atheist by conviction. No doubt there are those in the religious community who'd say God has not yet seen fit to remove the scales from my eyes. Maybe so, and I'd sure like to believe it's so, but I don't. Reality doesn't seem to have much to do with what I'd like to believe is true.


Dexter, my friend, all I can tell you is alittle about my life and my experience to the end of that statment of mine as you quoted.

I was raised a Catholic without any presure, just because that was what my parents were. So I continued in it with all sincerity of heart. I strived to have my answers ready when the priest would come by the school in the mornings so that I would have answered the questions correctly.

My faith in God is the same now as it was then, but the strenght of that faith is stronger now.

I was singing a solo in church to the tune of Danny boy. The words are:
Amazing grace shall always be my song of praise,
for it was grace that bought falling soul,
I do not know just why He came to love me so,
He just looked beyond my faults and saw my need.
I shall forever look unto the cross of Calvary,
to view the cross where Jesus died for me,
How marvelous the grace, that caught my falling soul,
He looked beyond my faults and saw my need.

This song though sung to a congregation, I sang it to Jesus as pictured in my minds eye, and before I could get to the end of the first 10 worlds, His light flooded my soul.
There was a loving peace, a warmth of love and a sense of being loved, that tears of joy poured out of me and my soul blessed beyond my understanding.

Truely, there is a God of love, and the song says it all, that He looks beyond our faults and sees our need.

That's my rendition and hope that many would be touched as I was by God in their own way.

But God has His timing and knows exactly what it is that is in ones heart.

There is this verse that I would share with you that discribes why somethings happen to some and not to others, such as: hard times, deaths in family's, beating, rapes, murders and the like.

Even to the very close to God ones, things happen.

The verse:
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Jesus is as near as our lips. Ask in faith and He will hear. He alone giveth understanding.

We can only testify of it.

Peace>>>AJ
 

Dexter Sinister

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Truely, there is a God of love, and the song says it all, that He looks beyond our faults and sees our need.
Clearly you're one of the good guys AJ, a Christian in the best sense of the word. I'd really like to believe that statement of yours I quoted is true, and there was a time in my youth when I did, but my life experience and my understanding of it have brought me to a point where I do not and can not believe it. But thanks for trying, and please don't give up on me. I might eventually get to where you are. I'm still a work in progress, as are we all, and I need people like you and Sanctus and m-levesque and selfactivated and CDNBear and others in my life to poke and prod me into thinking again and again about what I believe. Part of my difficulty is that a life as a scientist has taught me to be deeply suspicious of what I want to believe, it has to be tested and evidence produced in support of it... And sometimes that's a really crappy way to try to understand some things, especially things that we'd all agree are luminous and transcendental mysteries.

And that's part of the reason why I keep coming back to CC.
 

look3467

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Clearly you're one of the good guys AJ, a Christian in the best sense of the word. I'd really like to believe that statement of yours I quoted is true, and there was a time in my youth when I did, but my life experience and my understanding of it have brought me to a point where I do not and can not believe it. But thanks for trying, and please don't give up on me. I might eventually get to where you are. I'm still a work in progress, as are we all, and I need people like you and Sanctus and m-levesque and selfactivated and CDNBear and others in my life to poke and prod me into thinking again and again about what I believe. Part of my difficulty is that a life as a scientist has taught me to be deeply suspicious of what I want to believe, it has to be tested and evidence produced in support of it... And sometimes that's a really crappy way to try to understand some things, especially things that we'd all agree are luminous and transcendental mysteries.

And that's part of the reason why I keep coming back to CC.

I appreciate your honesty, Dexter, for in that answer I see a heart. A heart that had been touched before, but the trials of this world have overwhelmed it, but nothing is lost except time.

All of us regardless of position in life, have our time of visitation. To some it is early and to others at a later date. There is no human reasoning why it is that way, only that of a Godly reason can be understood.

You know , I tried looking into the numbers thing in the bible. To my amazement, numbers did matter.
You know how important numbers are, for everything in the world is numbered. Atoms, make up everything by the numbers. That's about the extent of my knowledge of science. Therefore, I think you are gifted with that knowledge. Between you and I, there is no difference: we both have to eat, breath and we both must die one day. Time and chance has given us both a different introduction to this world of which we both experienced different upbringings.
But one thing for sure we both posses, a heart, not the heart of flesh, but a spirit heart that lies dormant in our souls, that needs activation. And only the Spirit of the creator can activate it for us.

If you recall in the bible, as you mentioned you've read it, the many references to certain numbers?

The number seven is by far mentioned many times. I wondered at that and begin to research it out.
Why would 7 be so very important I asked myself?
I found out that it holds the key to understanding the plan of the creator. That number coupled with other numbers make up a picture that is very interesting.
I was awe struck that I couldn't have seen it before. Well, it wasn't my time to see it, I was told and because I pursued it with intensity, in time I begin to see it.

Suffice it to say, that now I appreciate all the work that the creator Father has done, and how the work of His Son fit into the whole scheme of things, simply by learning something about the numbers in the bible.

I can say with full confidence that the Father understands clearly all of our problems, faults and short comings. And as like a loving father of children, knows how, when and where to apply the proper guidance, corrections and love, despite the children's faults, short comings and problems.

There is this wealth that solely belongs to you and me, we have but to tap into it to receive it. It is made available as a free gift. And if the opportunity is taken to acquire of it, then the whelms of this world can and will not overcome it.

When I read a post, Dexter, I don,t see a male or female, rich or poor, atheist or Christian, Muslim or Buddhist, scientist or layman, but simply see the heart of the individual of what it is.

If that heart is hurting, meaning seeking answers, then I know that I can address it with compassion, patience and kindness so as to demonstrate the heart of God .

I leave you with this verses:
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Psa 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
Psa 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
And this last one:
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Peace>>>AJ
 

MikeT1986

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You mean the Holy Lands which Christians attacked and occupied to gain control from Islam? Or some other Holy Lands?
I was wrong about this. My perceptions of the Crusade were false, just as many other peoples are.

The Christians for example seem to believe that the Crusades were a noble fight against violent attackers.

Well I did some research, and I found this is to a degree true. However, the atrocities that were commited during the Crusades, which was a war against the violent spread of Islam, were far from 'a little out of hand'.

Not only did Christian Crusaders slaughter Muslim armies, but they also continued to slaughter entire civilian populations of Muslim cities. Not only Muslims were slaughtered - but Jews, for some reason, also became the target of the Crusaders. The Crusaders even decided that the slaughter of Eastern Orthodox Christian was in order, and that Pagans were simply not acceptable and slaughtered them too. Finally, a prince, who refused to participate in the war, was murdered after the Crusades for not participating and commiting troops.

What was the concern? That they might be converted to Islam so they better be killed now?

No. This was not a war against Islam - this was a war for Catholic Church control over the lands.

The Christians have the audacity to credit the Crusades with economic development of the region. Well... when you have 1,000,000 living off the land of the area, and then you slaughter 500,000 of them, there's twice as much to go around.

Granted - it did establish trade routes into the middle east, which continued all the way to China. But if diplomacy and understanding were applied perhaps the wholesale slaughter of human beings would not have been necessary.

It stopped the violent attacks of Islam for a while - but what about the slaughter of people who peacefully converted to Islam out of choice, and faith, and belief?

Yes... this indeed was a war of control. A war of religious intolerance, and a war of racism.

You could say, however, that without the wars of the past, the Earth today would be so overpopulated, that we would all live in abject poverty, as we would not have developed the knowledge and technology to support the population growth.

We can also credit Christians to slavery (they weren't the first, but they sure did love it!)- which helped us build our economies on free labour, making our nations rich, and never repaying their debt to their slaves.

Finally, I'll leave you with a word from a leading historian on the Crusades era, Steven Runciman:

"High ideals were besmirched by cruelty and greed.. the Holy War was nothing more than a long act of intolerance in the name of God".
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Hey Dexter...

I'm considering starting the Church of the Reborn Apostate...

You don't have to read anything, you don't have to attend public gatherings and you don't have to proselytize...

Oh damn....

Other than the proselytize part Christians have that market cornered.... maybe Rastafarians have it right!

Hey mon....Eye an Eye see the troot...an a man dat know da troot need only good herb...

Apologies to Rasta's in the crowd...
 

jimmoyer

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Hasn't the Book of Job looked at the issue Dexter Sinister brings up ?

That tragedy and chance and destruction occurred to Job was an interesting look at the matter
of faith during such trials.

Too many stories in the Bible to ignore.

Even the Tower of Babel shows the closer we get to God, our best plans and notions fall.
Perhaps science is a never ending construction of such a tower and we continue to
be like that Myth of Sisyphus rolling that rock up the hill.


Humility.
 

look3467

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jimmoyer;760949]Hasn't the Book of Job looked at the issue Dexter Sinister brings up ?

That tragedy and chance and destruction occurred to Job was an interesting look at the matter
of faith during such trials.

Too many stories in the Bible to ignore.

Even the Tower of Babel shows the closer we get to God, our best plans and notions fall.
Perhaps science is a never ending construction of such a tower and we continue to
be like that Myth of Sisyphus rolling that rock up the hill.
Hi, you might also look at Job as a type of Christ. A similitude: of Christ.

Check it out! There are more to the stories than their reality.

There are pictures painted in all those stories of the one individuals plight in the salvation of all mankind.

Peace>>>AJ
 

jimmoyer

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That the suffering of Job is kin to Christ is important and the point of your post, but I
am quite more interested in those who take such suffering to mean a repudiation
of any faith in any religion. Take Dexter Sinister's reaction for example:


I grew up in a deeply religious household and as an uncritical child absorbed a lot of religious teaching as revealed truth. But as an adult... well, people I loved died way too young from accidents and injuries and illness, no prayer of mine was ever answered, no guidance was ever given, in any terms that made any sense to me,
 

Just the Facts

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However, the atrocities that were commited during the Crusades, which was a war against the violent spread of Islam, were far from 'a little out of hand'.

I assume this is directed at my post, in which case the "a little" should remain outside the quotemarks, and in fact, the primary descriptor I used in introduction was "grotesquely out of control ".

Other than that I agree with you entirely, the Crusades turned out to be not particularly Christian, but very much an indiscriminate medieval bloodbath. I'm sure Christ would not have been pleased. The only point I wanted to convey is that the entire affair was not unprovoked, and God only knows what calamity may have befallen Europe if not for the Crusaders.
 

Dexter Sinister

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That the suffering of Job is kin to Christ is important and the point of your post...
You know, the story of Job has always vexed me. I haven't a clue how to make sense of it, but I've always felt it's important. Here's this righteous, religious, faithful, successful man, and God lets him be sorely afflicted, he loses everything in horrible ways, in some kind of ego contest between God and Satan about who's better and stronger. Job of course doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes and never loses his faith, but we do know what's really going on, and I can't help thinking that if Job had known what we know, he'd have been justifiably furious. God comes off as a real sh*t in that story. In fact much of God's behaviour in the Old Testament makes him out that way. Vengeful, capricious, jealous, petty, spiteful, genocidal... There's another story, I forget the citation offhand, where God sends a bear to maul 42 children to death, merely for making fun of a holy man's baldness. What's that about? And how about the story where God demands a father sacrifice his son as a test of the father's faith? And the father agrees to do it!? It'd be a frosty day in Hell before I'd agree to anything like that. A real father would tell God to piss off, he's asking for too much. Which I suppose might give me some respect in Hell: people would say, "He told God to piss off, to his face! I'm a sinner, but that guy's dangerous, leave him alone..."

How could anyone respect, let alone worship, a being who behaves like that? I don't get it.
 
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selfactivated

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You know, the story of Job has always vexed me. I haven't a clue how to make sense of it, but I've always felt it's important. Here's this righteous, religious, faithful, successful man, and God lets him be sorely afflicted, he loses everything in horrible ways, in some kind of ego contest between God and Satan about who's better and stronger. Job of course doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes and never loses his faith, but we do know what's really going on, and I can't help thinking that if Job had known what we know, he'd have been justifiably furious. God comes off as a real sh*t in that story. In fact much of God's behaviour in the Old Testament makes him out that way. Vengeful, capricious, jealous, petty, spiteful, genocidal... There's another story, I forget the citation offhand, where God sends a bear to maul 42 children to death, merely for making fun of a holy man's baldness. What's that about? And how about the story where God demands a father sacrifice his son as a test of the father's faith? And the father agrees to do it!? It'd be a frosty day in Hell before I'd agree to anything like that. A real father would tell God to piss off.

How could anyone respect, let alone worship, a being who behaves like that? I don't get it.

You and me both Doll. You and me both. :(
 

RomSpaceKnight

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I assume this is directed at my post, in which case the "a little" should remain outside the quotemarks, and in fact, the primary descriptor I used in introduction was "grotesquely out of control ".

Other than that I agree with you entirely, the Crusades turned out to be not particularly Christian, but very much an indiscriminate medieval bloodbath. I'm sure Christ would not have been pleased. The only point I wanted to convey is that the entire affair was not unprovoked, and God only knows what calamity may have befallen Europe if not for the Crusaders.

We would have been blessed. The Arabic culture was the repository of learnings lost from the times of the Greek and Roman civilization. We still use Arabic numerals. They saved the sciences. Without the great scholars of Islam the Christian church would have stamped out all knowledge except for what was contained in the bible. One of the reasons Jews were such successful bankers and merchants (besides the fact we would not allow them to be any thing else) was that they used arabic numerals and the number zero. They were the only ones who could add properly. With Roman numerals you cant even add up how many sheep you own let alone run the fiscal policies of an entire nation. Apogee and perigee are arabic words. The Islamic civilization was one of openess and acceptance. The Romans (Europeans) drove the Jews out of Palestine not the arabs.

Only with the weakening of the christian church and the various schisms and scandals (the split of the Orthodox church and 2 popes at one time) allowed learning from the east to kick start the Renaissance and bring us out of the dark ages.

Crusades have been called for by various popes on other europeans. Pope Adrian (the only English pope) called for a crusade against the Irish and they were Catholic. Pope Innocenti called for a crusade against the Cathars of southern France. They were christian too. A crusader against the Cathars is said to been the first to use the expression "Kill em all and let god choose his own" when asked how to tell a heretic from a believer.The Bugars in northern France were destroyed in a crusade again against christians. From the Bugars we get the insult/swear "bugger".
 

jimmoyer

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You know, the story of Job has always vexed me. I haven't a clue how to make sense of it, but I've always felt it's important. Here's this righteous, religious, faithful, successful man, and God lets him be sorely afflicted, he loses everything in horrible ways, in some kind of ego contest between God and Satan about who's better and stronger. Job of course doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes and never loses his faith, but we do know what's really going on, and I can't help thinking that if Job had known what we know, he'd have been justifiably furious.
---------------------------------------------------Dexter Sinister--------------------------------------------------------

That last part of the above quote is interesting: "...if Job had known what we know, he'd have been
justifiably furious."

Not true. You're assuming that story doesn't simulate LIFE. We never know what's behind it all.
We never know. Just like Job, in that story. We never know. Metaphor.

Okay, so what ?

I brought up the book of Job because your complaint about any religion has always
been why would a God let anyone suffer so ? I find it particularly interesting that this book of Job
looked at that issue. Any philosophy or religion that doesn't,
would be missing the elephant in the room.

Personally, I like the Buddhist take on the matter of suffering. It is their first tenet, it is their
first statement to acknowlege that all life is suffering.
 

jimmoyer

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But beyond this Bible story, Dexter Sinister begs another question: Why all the suffering ??

Yeah right.

Like I got an answer ? LIke does anyone else ?

Look at it this way. You will be ill disposed to do so. But without suffering what do we have ?

You think you know ?

I'd like to hear this one.