Re: RE: Canada’s cost in Afgh
Mogz said:
Hehe you stepped in to the ring, and now you're about to get knocked the f.uck out:
#1 isolationism is not what a friendly country is all about, if Canada wants to reflect peace and understanding in the eyes of the human world, it doesn’t have to deploy troops loaded with arsenal that can deliver collator damage. In the contrary isolationism is the derivative of a tuff guy attitude around the globe.
#2 in the Balkans when Slobodan Milošević was taken out deep-seeded religious and philosophical ideals at odds with each other caused Slobodan Milošević to fall. The factions were determent to engage in a better life than that of the tyranny in which Slobodan Milošević had subjected them in to.
Slobodan Milošević listen (help•info) (Serbian Cyrillic: Слободан Милошевић, pronounced [sloˈbodan miˈloʃevitɕ]); (20 August 1941 – 11 March 2006) was President of Serbia and of Yugoslavia. He served as President of Serbia from 1989 to 1997 and then President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1997 to 2000. He also led Serbia's Socialist Party from its foundation in 1992 to 2001.
He was one of the key figures in the Yugoslav wars during the 1990s and Kosovo War in 1999. He was indicted in May 1999, during the Kosovo War, by the UN's International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for crimes against humanity in Kosovo. Charges of violating the laws or customs of war and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions in Croatia and Bosnia and genocide in Bosnia were added a year and a half after that.
He was forced to resign following a popular uprising against his rule.
The out come here Mogz is not of what we did that was the right thing and successful thing, if anything thousands of life’s got slaughtered by Slobodan Milošević before the Americans and Canada got involved.
So, you can not compare the Balkans with Afghanistan. In Afghanistan Bin laden is not visible and yet he resides in the deep caves of the ruff mountain terrain of Afghanistan. This a war will become a long drown out war with deep rooted connections of the Middle East.
#3 How is our past operations purely of a self-interest manner? Very simple Mogz, The Congo, Eritrea, East Timor, The Golan Heights, Somalia, Rwanda, these places for sure they are not living under the panacea of peace you and I know, Canada went in, realised that the problem is bigger than originally thought and subsequently pulled out while all of these places still have problems you and I know are not going to go away any time soon.
Mogz I love Canada and the image Canada had as a peace embracing nation. Now the cat is out of the bag, the world will be the judge on who is for peace and who is not. Time will be the only barrier before the final commentary on the subject of war in Afghanistan and Iraq. God forbid there will not be a war between Iran and the West.
:wink: :roll:
1. Actually, that's not what you said earlier. You said, and I quote:
The only time I will take a fire arm in my hands is only if and when the Canadian sovereignty will be threatened here at home. Anything else has imperialistic connotation.
That's what you said. My reponse was to highlight that your stance is utterly isolationist, in every sense. In that, unless it directly affects us, we shouldn't be doing anything abroad. Then I simply asked the question, why should we deploy troops then to nations that need our help? It's contrary to your entire stance that using Force (peacekeeping is a form of force) isn't what we should be doing. Why can you not accept that sometimes force gets results?
2. Your statement vis-a-vis the Balkans is, well, utterly wrong. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you obviously don't understand what happened there, as given by your first statment:
in the Balkans when Slobodan Milošević was taken out deep-seeded religious and philosophical ideals at odds with each other caused Slobodan Milošević to fall.
Milosevic didn't fall until 2001, after being arrested on fraud and war crimes charges. The War in the Balkans sparked up in 1991 and lasted until 2000 (the fighting itself). Believe it or not Socrates, Milosevic was
NOT the chief cause of the War in the Balkans, he was an accelerant. In fact the reason the War started was the secession of Slovenia and Croatia. In fact there were numerous small conflicts fought over the decade, but the catalyst for each flare-up was ethnic tension. The simple fact is that when we deployed to Croatia in the early 90's, we were faced with a situation
EXACTLY like that we're facing in Afghanistan. We were there to assist the local Government, however forces outside our sphere were bent on destroying the independence of Croatia. Our troops faced constant attacks from mortar bombardments to ambushes. We never knew who the enemy was because they looked like civilians. Yes at times we fought uniformed troops, but those instances were far and few between. In fact, the Balkans was a giant civil war, one of epic proportions. If you transpose the tension and clandestine War of Afghanistan on top of the Balkans, you get a similar situation. So to reiterate my stance; people deemed the Balkans un-winable, yet it was won. There are those, like you, in society deeming the War in Afghanistan un-winable. The simple fact is that this War is winable, it's just a question of time and commitment.
3. My favorite of your retorts. We didn't pull out just because of problems Socrates. We pulled out when it had to happen. Take for example the Golan Heights, we spent
32 years there. The truth is there's nothing left to monitor. We're not needed there anymore. The same can be said for Eritrea, East Timor (at the time it was fine, now it's chaos again), The Congo, and Cyprus (where we spent over 30 years too). Sadly Rwanda was an utter f.uck up, but that was due to the United Nations and their limitations placed on peacekeepers. Somalia, had to want to help itself before it could be fixed. Sadly, Somalia is utterly unfixable. The bottom line is Socrates, that our nation has deployed for the better good. As I highlighted, we spent over 3 decades in both the Golan and Cyprus, when those Operations gave nothing in return to Canada, nothing at all. We stepped in and helped Eritrea, the Congo, and East Timor, and they all ended well, with minimal bloodshed due to our presence. You clearly are a pacifist. And while that isn't in and of itself a bad thing, it does stop you from being an objective thinker on the security of the World. As I said earlier, we live in a global village. What happens on the other side of the planet, can have ramifications in our Nation. If you're content burying your head in the sand while others fight the problems this World has, that's your right. But by doing so, in my opinion, you give up the right to bitch and moan about the way National security is being conducted.
That's what you said. My reponse was to highlight that your stance is utterly isolationist, in every sense. In that, unless it directly affects us, we shouldn't be doing anything abroad. Then I simply asked the question, why should we deploy troops then to nations that need our help? It's contrary to your entire stance that using Force (peacekeeping is a form of force) isn't what we should be doing. Why can you not accept that sometimes force gets results?
Mogz look, to be a peace keeper as Canada had gained the reputation around the world is a good thing, far from being an ISOLATIONIST.
I repeat the cat is out of the bag, Canada is not viewed around the world as a peace keeper any longer. Reality is knocking at the door when we take a close look at the recent events in Toronto.
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CANADIAN authorities have thwarted what they believe to be a major terrorist threat with the arrests of 17 people "inspired by al-Qaeda" who had stockpiled huge amounts of explosives.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police said the suspects, 12 men and five juveniles, were all Canadian residents, mostly from the Toronto area, and were rounded up in raids over the weekend.
Fifteen of the suspects appeared yesterday in a heavily guarded courtroom in Toronto, with family members sobbing.
The arrests were the culmination of the largest counter-terrorism operation in Canada since the passage of the country's Anti-Terrorism Act shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks.
Authorities declined to identify the targets of the alleged plot, saying only that they were in southern Ontario, which includes Toronto, Canada's largest city, and Ottawa, its capital.
They did, however, deny a report that Toronto's mass transit system had been targeted.
Advertisement:
Authorities bore down on the suspects after the group secured three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a fertiliser that can be used to make explosives.
"It was their intent to use it for a terrorist attack," Mike McDonell, assistant commissioner of the mounted police, said yesterday in Toronto.
"To put it in context, the 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people was completed with only one tonne of ammonium nitrate."
He said the group "posed a real and serious threat". "It had the capacity and intent to carry out these attacks."
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Canada is a peaceful nation who should stay on the mission in delivering humanitarian help rather than prostituting the word peace in the name of self interest while we kill 1.000.000 people in order to achieve peace around the globe.
Mogz said:The bottom line is Socrates that our nation has deployed for the better good. As I highlighted, we spent over 3 decades in both the Golan and Cyprus, when those Operations gave nothing in return to Canada, nothing at all. We stepped in and helped Eritrea, the Congo, and East Timor, and they all ended well, with minimal bloodshed due to our presence. You clearly are a pacifist. And while that isn't in and of itself a bad thing, it does stop you from being an objective thinker on the security of the World. As I said earlier, we live in a global village. What happens on the other side of the planet can have ramifications in our Nation.
By using force in to day’s day and age it can be lethal, 3 times than that of the Oklahoma’s unshakable deserter.
Mogz I know your passion in military thinking is evident. I respect your deep conviction and knowledge of military history, one thing we must not forget Mogz, today we are in a completely deferent time period than past years. Like it or not the enemy today is very well hidden, and the puffing of the chest is old business that doesn’t produce sales.
Mogz said: The bottom line is Socrates that our nation has deployed for the better good. As I highlighted, we spent over 3 decades in both the Golan and Cyprus, when those Operations gave nothing in return to Canada, nothing at all. We stepped in and helped Eritrea, the Congo, and East Timor, and they all ended well, with minimal bloodshed due to our presence. You clearly are a pacifist. And while that isn't in and of itself a bad thing, it does stop you from being an objective thinker on the security of the World. As I said earlier, we live in a global village. What happens on the other side of the planet can have ramifications in our Nation.
By using force in to day’s day and age it can be lethal, 3 times than that of the Oklahoma’s unshakable deserter.
Mogz I know your passion in military thinking is evident. I respect your deep conviction and knowledge of military history, one thing we must not forget Mogz, today we are in a completely deferent time period than past years. Like it or not the enemy today is very well hidden, and the puffing of the chest is old business that doesn’t produce sales.
