Bush Has a Lot to Answer for on Iraq Torture

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
Yes, the US and Israel are of a higher status than other countries in the region. They are functioning democracies. No, they are not perfect-- but if you want to play the comparison game, we can.

There is no moral equivalence between almost all the countries in the region and the US or Israel.

As for the tired, blame America drill...read this. It's from another Arab paper.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=5915#



America reacts in pursuit of its interests, ideals

In Rami Khouri's June 26 commentary, "How the US and Israel misunderstand the Arab world" Americans once again hear an attempt to define us as either ignorant or culturally deaf in our relationship with a foreign people steeped in history, culture, wisdom and some other unique features. With all due respect to Khouri, it's a tired argument that misses some essential realities of America and its relationship with Israel. Forget the cultural differences argument; it's a red herring, a chimera used again and again to create some level of ethnic superiority.

The same philosophy has been used from places as close to home as Mexico, where the image is the dumb "Yankee-Gringo," to Europe with the wild cowboy, to the Japanese "Gai-jin." All cover the same territory, that Americans are hopeless outsiders, without the capacity to understand the fine nuances and wisdom of the local ancient culture and therefore, just don't get it, which is why we are too stupid to understand what the rest of the world understands.

Khouri adds further excuses for American ignorance and Arab ethnic superiority by stating we're biased and have provided our support to the "wrong type" of people whether it is Israel or Arab leaders. This is topped off with the old canard that the Arab people still nurse the wounds of old injustices, whether it is European colonialism, or the Middle Ages crusades. The America which misunderstands the Arab and Muslim mind is also the same nation which came to the aid of those in Bosnia, Kuwait and Lebanon.

This is the same America that has taken, not years, but decades in attempting to settle the differences between Arabs and Israelis in a peaceful arena. It is the same America that provided support for Turkey during the Cold War and Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion. And it is one that has accepted tens of thousands of students from Arab nations into its universities and schools of higher learning, and provided several million more the opportunity to call this nation home. The fact is America, more than any other country, has learned to adapt to the diversity found in the mosaic of ethnic groups that make up this nation. Americans understand the Arab world. We understand the rhetoric that comes from its leadership; we understand the voices of the "street;" and we understand the actions of its influential figures, both nation-state, and independent actors. What we have seen is a region awash in problems, but unable to muster the will to acknowledge them, let alone provide local pro-active peaceful solutions to them whether it is ethnic, political, or religious conflict.

These issues far transcend the Arab-Israeli conflict and recent invasion and occupation of Iraq. It is found in the schism between Sunni and Shiite, Kurd and Arab and Muslim and non-Muslim. America does not "misunderstand" the Middle East; it reacts to it in pursuit of our interests and ideals. We react to the harsh rhetoric put forth by the Iranians and their calls to destroy the great Satan when their rhetoric is coupled with the support of Hizbullah, fatwahs against individuals and a dictatorial regime against its own people. We react to the harsh rhetoric of Yasser Arafat, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, when it is coupled with suicide bombers. We react to Saudi imams when their sermons against the infidel are coupled with support for Al-Qaeda. And we react to the Arab League, Organization of the Islamic Conference and Arab states when their policies cannot overcome their own ethnic philosophies to create real space for compromise and coexistence. Do our actions serve our interests? Yes. Does it support our allies? Yes again.

This is not a lack of empathy, but looking at reality. The same people who complain of the US support for Arab dictators cheer Saddam Hussein's rhetoric and ignored his decades of domestic atrocities. After more than 50 years of independence, the Arab states and its people bear a large measure of responsibility for their own actions and strategies. Culture, politics and history are all important issues that create a filter of experience. But to use them as a crutch and means of ignoring one's own shortcomings is a useless exercise and does not serve either the Arab people or their interests.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
moghrabi said:
Since when Do I make sense to you. It's been 2 months and I still do not make sense to you. The reason is that you do not like people who make sense. You like to live in your propoganda world. Listen what CNN and Fox news are saying. No other article, news clip from me or anyone who do not agree with you make sense.

You see if you are driving on a highway and you see that all cars are driving in the opposite direction, don't you stop and think that perhaps I am going against the traffic.

I can quote from Arab intellectuals and Arab press, if you like.

Not that it will make a difference, of course.

Besides, that the Arab world is driving against the traffic of the West and other Arab intellectuals only means that the Arab world a) can't drive or b) cant read the road signs.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
researchok said:
Yes, the US and Israel are of a higher status than other countries in the region. They are functioning democracies. No, they are not perfect-- but if you want to play the comparison game, we can.

You have the decency to say that the Isrealis and Americans are of higher status? Who made you so. You and them are the scum of the world. Do not and I mean do not put yourself on top of everybody else. You are insulting a lot of people here.

What democracy are you talking about? When many black americans were not allowed to vote in florida. Why? iIs this democracy.

Now we argue about democracies but DO NOT insult anybody and put yourself on top. This is what is crearting hatred and more suicide bombers. People like you who are bigots against a whole culture and religion. You really make me sick.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
Well, I dont usually insult people-- but since YOU insulted me, I thought it appropriate. Theres an old saying, you wanna play, you gotta pay.

OK, onwards.

What I said was that the west-- including the US and Israel are of higher moral standards, yes.

By any measure of standard. Democracies arent perfect, but in comaprison to other regimes in the region, yes, we in the west have a far superior system-- and hence a higher level of morality.

No one is forcing the janjaweed to rape african women as no one forced the GIA in Algeria to rape children.

I suspect you didnt read the article from the Arab writer who raises the point that Arabs dont care if victims arent 'victims' of American or Israeli 'aggression. How civilized.

As for suicide bombers, lets not forget who gave us that-- the same people who defiled the Olympics, hijaclked and blew up planes, threw wheelchair bound Americans off a ship.

And thats just for starters.

Arabs are 'humiliated'? At what? They don't seem to care that their education level is among the lowest in the world. They dont seem to care that they have no economies. They dont seem to care that slavery by Arabs in Mauritania is ongoing nor that over a million Christians have been massacred in Sudan. FGM is a problem that doesnt seem to make an impact either.

Then of course there wasnt much to be concerned about in Libya, Iraq, Iran etc.

I mean, why worry about the death of a few million Arabs? Who cares, right?

Certainly Arabs dont. I guess theyre too busy worrying about Americans.

By the way, I make you sick?

Guess what makes me sick?
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
You say you have higher morality? LOL
Do not make me laugh. and yes you make me sick and I will make you even sicker.

Yes we are worrying about the Americans. they are the seed of all hatred and you talk about morality. If you go to the bottom of any conflict it has the american fingerprint on it. And maybe Bush's middle finger is in you and you are enjoying it.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
moghrabi said:
You say you have higher morality? LOL
Do not make me laugh. and yes you make me sick and I will make you even sicker.

Yes we are worrying about the Americans. they are the seed of all hatred and you talk about morality. If you go to the bottom of any conflict it has the american fingerprint on it. And maybe Bush's middle finger is in you and you are enjoying it.

In other words, once again, you cant argue and have to resort to tired rhetoric.

Actually, you dont make me sick at all. I feel sorry for you. You-- and millions of others like you-- are authoring your own irrelevance.

Go back and actually READ that piece from the Lebanon Daily Star.

You may learn something.

Then again, maybe not.

As for your referance to homosexuality, is that cultural or religious?
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
take it as you wish. It was not a reference to homosexuality at all. I also feel sorry for a sick person like you. You are what they call the White trash of the world. Amen.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
I see.

You best go back and read what you said- they are your words, not mine. I really cant see how they can be taken any other way-- but Im sure youll come up with something.

As for calling me names, well, I cant say I expected more from you.

What do you call other minorities who dont agree with you?
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
You are a sick fart. a pig, a piece of shit and as I said "take it as you wish." You make people sick in this forum as much as you make me. No one and I repeat no one agrees with you becuase you are a truth twister, a bigot, a hater and the list goes on.

I am proud of my heritage and I do not need a piece of shit to tell me what to think. You have been insulting my culture for long. I had enough of you and your stupid mentality.

I have to agree that you do make me sick. very sick indeed. But this is why your mother let you leave the house, is it not?
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
I dont care about your heritage, as it relates to you.

I dont care what you think of me.

This is a board. People post, people reply.

You insult, you get insulted. This isnt rocket science.

You make ridiculous assertions, you get ridiculed.

As I said earlier, youre doing a marvelous job authoring your own irrelevance.

You just added a new chapter with your post.

At least your consistant.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
OK, Ill make this easy for you.

YOU started with the personal insults.

Like I said, real naqbah is video, hard drives, and memory. Go back and check it out.

Like I said earlier-- you wanna play, you gotta pay.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

Council Member
Jul 6, 2004
1,142
0
36
Hide-Away Lane, Toronto


I admit that the world is unfair.
I'm not thinking that the U.S. is a bunch of tyrants or whatever.

I just dislike dupicity.
Imagine that American folks are having to compare themselves
to countries such as Sudan in an effort to sanctify their invasion
of Iraq.

When did American Justice become American Just-us?

I really don't lose sleep when America utilizes it's military. I said
very little during their Central America intrusions in the early
80's.
But, this invasion into Iraq puts my way of life at risk.
The Americans have insulted the whole Arab world.
And, Bush says "Bring 'em On".
I don't give two hoots what Israel does.
I write about Israel because America needs to begin negotiating
a way out of Iraq.
They can't carpet bomb like Vietnam because they can't destroy
the oil infrastructure. So, it means negotiations with the Arab
world. There is no way that the U.S. can win a war against
billions of Arabs.
Saudi Arabia is goin' down.
It is not safe for any American to walk the face of this earth.
Every person from the West is becoming a soft target.

Negotiations mean taking Israel into the World Court and getting
their asses back to the '67 borders.
Not that this will settle the problem, but at least it will begin to
show "goodwill" on behalf of the West.
Israel is a land of nothing.
It has no natural resources. It does not even have water. The
wall they are building is following water tables, not security.
Anything Jewish folks got, they got off the backs of gentiles.

America can refuse .... but no other country is gonna volunteer
their citizens as cannon fodder for American interests.

Every truth and ideal that America held sacred has been shattered
with this invasion of Iraq. They will never recover from the shame
brought upon their nation. And they are too proud to admit it.
They too are suicidal.

Calm
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
There arent billions of Arabs-- but thats not the point. I do agree that we need to find a better way, but simply negotiating with corrupt regimes hasnt worked in over 50 years-- I dont see how it will wortk now, unless theres real reform in the Arab world.

As for the rest of you rpost, well, I disagree. The west will defend itself.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
I dont see the nexus.

Are you saying the threats to America and Americans isnt real?

Are the threats on the tapes given to Al Jazeera by the terrorists not to be taken seriously?

Was Muqtada Al Sadr also 'diversionary'?
 

Bushanti

New Member
Jun 25, 2004
29
0
1
Fraser Valley, British Columbia
Far too many Americans don't know beans when the bag is opened--and worse, aren't trained to know.

But it's a setup. Americans, from the time they are just little duffers beginning kindergarten, are in the hands of the State. Right from the get-go, what do they learn? The Pledge of Allegiance . Read the words and marvel at their hypocricy. For openers, just cogitate on "with justice and liberty for all." How many books have been written on that phrase alone and how many more could be written? I ask all Americans to explore their system of justice--laws, enforcement, the entire criminal justice system, social programs (for Americans, a contradiction of terms), and whole plethora of social ills. The only conclusion any sane, thoughtful, logical person can possibly arrive at is that "justice and liberty for all" is a complete, utter fabrication for a vast number of Americans. And oh, yeah, let's not forget the Patriot Act....(oh good Lord, let's not go there....well, maybe.....but another time.)

And yet, the Plague--no, I mean, the Pledge is taught as fact in the school system--not only taught, but it is branded into the minds of the nation's unwitting sponges. I conjure up the picture of millions of wee Blacks, Hispanics, Whites--all manner of disenfranchised youngsters from America's inner cities--standing up, facing the stars and stripes and having to learn and endlessly repeat the words including, "with justice and liberty for all." --this while their tummies are rumbling for lack of sufficient food, their minds dazed as a result of poor food and an overall rotten home life so made by government design and neglect of the inner city (stuff of which other books are made--and all too complicated and twisted to deal with in this small offering).

The propaganda train presses on. As the little darlings pass through the school system, they are introduced to history. Not just any history, mind you--but American history. And if the young'uns happen to learn anything about other countries, it is only by happenstance--as in their connection to the U.S. And don't Americans love their history.......skewed.........in their favour.........of course. Yes, the American child learns that the universe--as they should know it--begins and ends at the borders of the U.S. of A. They learn that their country, one nation, under God (oh puhleeeese!) is the saviour of this sad, old world. And why not? Its citizenry is comprised of God fearing, upstanding, understanding, kind hearted, benevolent, giving, morally superior, altruistic human beings. Oh really? And the peoples of all other nations are what, exactly? Chopped liver? Well so it would seem from a typical American's point of view.

So what do we have so far? Relentless repetition of a pledge fraught with lies; a history skewdly taught; and finally, ....TA DA........drum roll, pleeeeeease.........chief propaganda promotor.......Yes, America's very own...........CORPORATE MEDIA!! I'm telling you, folks, Joe Average is SNOOKERED!

But it's America's closeness to God that's so truly awesome. I am particularly impressed by Junior's ongoing relationship with God to whom he gives up prayers and from whom he asks forgiveness, following which--but only after--invoking the blessing of God--plunges his country and its citizens into an unprovoked war--as in--------RETRIBUTION is OURS! We shall exact our pound of flesh!!!! Whose flesh is of no import! Let's just say that we're gonna get the show on the road by bombing the hell out of Afghanistan....but.....ppssst to those "in the know".....our real mission is IRAQ!! Oil, ya know. Must control.

But to the great unwashed, Saddam-BAD! Dictatorship-NOT GOOD! U.S.ofA. give FREEDOM to Iraqi people! But, first, kill Iraqis, then free Iraqis. North Korea-----no-kidding-type Weapons of Mass Destruction. Inspectors not needed. No proof required. We got proof. But.....Media no talk about. Big dictator. Huge human rights infractions. Media no talk about. Mission: Iraq.

And so, with the able assistance of corporate media, and with God and Bush nestling in to OBSERVE a fine invasion, the crowd roars its approval and, with patriotic furor, willingly offers up its young for the cause. Figures. The Bible is riddled with stories about human sacrifices.

And so, seven hundred plus--and counting--American bodies later--and untold thousands of Iraqis killed or maimed--and who's counting the myriad casualties from other involved countries (only American bodies count for much--and even then, for Junior, not THAT much), the truth starts to oooooozze out to the consternation of Bush and his not-so-merry gang. Not true, Junoir protests. Not true, echo his corporate media mouth pieces. Lies, lies and more damn lies, screams Cheney. And as the revelations steadily begin to surface--a floodgate that corporate media struggles--still--to control, the Bushites cry, foul, foul.

And yet, even as the Americans are exposed to the real agenda of the U.S., too many continue to resist recognizing the truth as truth. Notwithstanding that their champion of peace, democracy, good will, etc., has plunged his nation into the depths of degradation at a cost of billions--to say nothing of unspeakable abject human suffering--the American mind is only........weellllll.......divided. My god they should be demanding en masse for Bush's impeachment--at the very least--for he is a liar; a cowardly man; a miserly man; a man void of principles; a truly reviled man; a man who is a disgrace to his country------NAY------a disgrace to humanity. There have always been leaders of evil and there will be more of the same in the future---it is written. What makes this man so despicable is that he acts in a manner which he himself decries in others. Hipocrites are the worst. And yet, even still, the American public is.........divided.

The systemized propagandizing of America is complete. How sad......how very sad.......for the Yanks......and for the world.

Bushanti is my name; Junior is my game.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
How exactly different is 'Oh Canada' from the pledge of allegiance?

While it's nice to be able to blame 'corporate America' for all the worlds ills and absolve anyone anywhere of any culpability and thus justify any behavior, well, that just doesnt work in the real world.

It might fly in sophmore poli sci, but for the rest of us, it's not so clear.

I knhow I'm probably wasting my time, but read this.


Can West News Services, owners of several Canadian newspapers including the National Post as well as the Global Television Network commissioned a series of polls to determine how young people feel about the issues that were facing the country’s voters. Dubbed "Youth Vote 2004", the polls, sponsored by the Dominion Institute and Navigator Ltd. were taken with a view to getting more young people involved in the political process.

In one telephone poll of teens between the ages of 14 and 18, over 40 per cent of the respondents described the United States as being "evil". That number rose to 64 per cent for French Canadian youth.

This being Canada, the amount of anti-Americanism that was found is not surprising. What is significant is the high number of teens who used the word "evil" to describe our southern neighbour. As Misty Harris pointed out in her column in the Saskatoon Star Phoenix, evil is usually associated with serial killers and "kids who tear the legs off baby spiders." These teens appear to equate George W. Bush and Americans with Osama bin Laden and Hitler, although it is unknown if the teens polled would describe the latter two as being evil. Whether someone who orders planes to be flown into heavily populated buildings would fit that description would make a good subject for a future poll.

The Liberal government came into power in 1993 gushing anti-Americanism. Former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien’s communications director, Francoise Ducros, made headlines when she referred to President Bush as a moron. Liberal MP Carolyn Parrish was picked up on a boom microphone saying, "Damn Americans — I hate those bastards". Not only did Parrish not apologize for her remarks, but she later appeared on a television show hosted by alleged comedian Mike Bullard and laughed about the incident. Parrish played to the anti-Americanism of the youthful studio audience by saying that she couldn’t guarantee that she wouldn’t do it again.

Not only did then Prime Minister Jean Chrétien not take any action against his staff or caucus members, he himself engaged in America-bashing. The depth of his anti-Americanism surfaced shortly after the 9/11 attacks when he blamed the arrogance and greed of the West (read the United States) for those attacks.

When Paul Martin assumed office last December, the childish cheap shots ended but, if anything, anti-Americanism became stronger.

Anti-Americanism played a prominent role in the election strategy of the Liberals. Paul Martin portrayed himself as the saviour of Canadian medicare while saying that if Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party of Canada came to power they would introduce "American-style" health care. Martin was happy to take credit for cutting taxes and eliminating the deficit during the 1990s when he was Minister of Finance, but he referred to tax cuts included in the Conservative Party platform as being "American-style tax cuts". Canadians who favour lower taxes or the private delivery of health care services or smaller governments or anything similar to what is found in the United States were called "un-Canadian" by Paul Martin.

It is therefore not surprising that a high percentage of Canadian youth think that the United States is evil. Nor is it surprising that this feeling is more pronounced in Quebec where Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe said that he would rather live under the United Nations than the Stars and Stripes. The left wing Canadian political parties, aided by their supporters in the elite media don’t seem to be able to say anything positive about Canada without denigrating the United States in the process.

The poll results reflect that anti-Americanism will be solidly entrenched in future generations of Canadians. As well as listening to the propaganda espoused by their political leaders and the media, these kids have no experience with what constitutes real evil. They live in a country that much like pre-9/11 America, thinks that terrorist attacks are something that happens in other countries. And as the World War II veterans slowly die off, they have no conviction of the evil that the allies risked their lives to defeat.

With anti-Americanism playing such a prominent role in this past election campaign, it is no wonder that the United States was viewed in such a negative light.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
researchok said:
I knhow I'm probably wasting my time, but read this.

You have been wasting your time since day one. Are you going to convince the masses with your Bushy trash?