Baptism

[talloola]

yes the cleansing of the original sin. As a child I was so obedient, in catholic school, learned all of
the jibber jabber, I was baptized, confirmed. The only thing I remember about confirmation, when I look
at the group picture I have, is that I was pouting because my friends veil was prettier than mine, and
that ruined my day, but that was 'real', what the confirmation thing was all about I can't recall, nor
do I remember any of it, because it was a silly mythical treatment of a child to satisfy the parent, who
would feel guilty if they had not put their child thru it.

that is mostly what it is all about, putting guilt into a person, so they will continue to obey.

it must be most irritating to those in high places to know that the majority of mature intelligent people
these days, don't accept that guilt, and feel good on their own, without those pressures, and can manage
to live a clean productive life without religion, or any belief in god or other mythical tales.

if one wants to believe any of it, go for it, 'if it makes you happy and satisfied', its a free country,and of course the opposite also applies.

 

[damngrumpy]

There is some problem here with the Bible and the historical record, but the two have in my
my opinion demonstrated, that Jesus did exist. Historical records and the Bible in many
cases became the written record itself. The Bible is not the only account with the four books
Mathew Mark Luke and John.
there were other authors of the record, and unfortunately they are still in the Vatican vault
and not part of the Bible at all. The reason is simple. Within a few years after the death of
Christ, the Church witnessed a battle for control of the faith. The four main participants who
ended up with a post script or a section of teaching as we call it. The remainder was left our
as a compromise. Some say there could be as many as two dozen books that would make
up all the teachings in the Bible.
I have watched some programs and read articles over the years that suggest, that Mary,
Magdalene was a disciple, not a prostitute, in fact she was relegated to a prostitute status by
Pope Gregory in the 12Th century I believe. But then we all know about Pope Gregory, he
sold shares into Heaven in exchange for donations to build St Peters, and the current structure
of the seat of power for the church.
I believe the Jesus we know today and the Jesus who existed in his time in history are very
different people. Rome would not have been so obsessed with get rid of him if he did not exist.

 

[In Between Man]

But like a historical novel, much of the dialogue is fictional. There is extremely little evidence of Jesus of Nazareth having walked the Earth.

How convenient for someone who doesn't want to believe the bible as a whole to make that claim! The central figure whom the whole point to the bible rests on - never existed! Why not take the much more reasonable route that he existed but that you don't believe in the spiritual aspect of what happened on the cross for example(substitutable sacrifice, atonement)?

I think what most detractors are concerned about is not what you believe but that you makes statements about Jesus or the bible as if they were fact when there is so little proof. The only proof you really have is that the bible claims to be the word of god and that is not a valid endorsement.

The bible is oldest actual known book to man, with some parts dating back to 3500 BC.

The bible is a collection of 66 books, written by over 40 authors, over a period of more than 2000 years. It covers a wide range of controversial topics, is filled with amazing mathematical intricacies, and a myriad of astounding prophecies - yet it is clearly ONE book, with perfect unity and consistency with an intricacy and symmetry incapable of explanation by chance or collusion.

Moreover, archaeology confirms the historical facts of the bible: "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries." - Nelson Glueck

Then there's the prophecies that Christ fulfilled and the hundreds of references to his deity. The bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God.

The Quran makes the same claim and yet you reject it out of hand without really studying it.

One book, written by one man, in one lifetime. See the difference?

 

[Cliffy]

The Vedas of the Hindus are books written long before the bible was started - some 6000 years ago. Written before Aryans migrated to India. The bible is loaded with contradictions, violence, murder, incest. It celebrates a vain, selfish, petulant, vengeful, nasty entity (in the OT) who suddenly becomes loving and caring in the beginning of the NT and then by revelations reverts back to his old nasty self. If you would study the whys, where, hows and whos of Constantine's assemblage of the diverse writings that were put together and those that he rejected to produce the bible in its present form, you would question the validity too.

As far as prophesy goes, you can find plenty of them from all over the world among indigenous peoples and other major religions, all just as accurate or bogus as those found in the bible. The problem with prophesy is that they are usually so cryptic or obtuse that they can be interpreted in a thousand different ways and are usually more accurate in hind sight by those who believe in them.

The point is, I have studied the bible from many different points of view and find it lacking in credibility. I have also studied the books of many other religions from various points of view and found them just as lacking. It is not the belief in those books or the people who believe that I take exception with. It is that those beliefs are used to justify hatred and wars with other people of differing beliefs that I take exception with. It is the only reason I bring up some of the information I know about any religion. Jews, Muslims and Christians have been at war with each other for centuries fighting over the same god. That is what I find ludicrous. All this blood shed has been about opinions, not facts. When faced with facts, all religions break down (and that has nothing to do with the existence of gods or goddesses).

 

[JLM]

yes the cleansing of the original sin. As a child I was so obedient, in catholic school, learned all of
the jibber jabber, I was baptized, confirmed. The only thing I remember about confirmation, when I look
at the group picture I have, is that I was pouting because my friends veil was prettier than mine, and
that ruined my day, but that was 'real', what the confirmation thing was all about I can't recall, nor
do I remember any of it, because it was a silly mythical treatment of a child to satisfy the parent, who
would feel guilty if they had not put their child thru it.

that is mostly what it is all about, putting guilt into a person, so they will continue to obey.

it must be most irritating to those in high places to know that the majority of mature intelligent people
these days, don't accept that guilt, and feel good on their own, without those pressures, and can manage
to live a clean productive life without religion, or any belief in god or other mythical tales.

if one wants to believe any of it, go for it, 'if it makes you happy and satisfied', its a free country,and of course the opposite also applies.[/QUOTE]

Another valid opinion.

I like to keep things simple- one of the main tenets of Christianity is "Do unto others............................................." and I believe if a person strives to follow that one, he/she can consider themself a Christian and as an added bonus the world will be a better place.

 

[karrie]

The purpose of baptism. I notice that plenty of people have taken the religious route in addressing it, and I really can't help but feel that this is a serious oversimplification of what baptism means to families, and to communities.

We are, in essence, tribal animals. A baptism is essentially a ceremony welcoming a new life into your tribe. It serves an integral purpose, in that the ritual creates a dual obligation between community and parent. One, of the parent to raise the child in the community and the other, of the community to care for the child should something happen to the parents. While we may intellectually move away from religion, the emotional and social need that some of these rituals fill doesn't easily fade away.

 

[JLM]

The purpose of baptism. I notice that plenty of people have taken the religious route in addressing it, and I really can't help but feel that this is a serious oversimplification of what baptism means to families, and to communities.

We are, in essence, tribal animals. A baptism is essentially a ceremony welcoming a new life into your tribe. It serves an integral purpose, in that the ritual creates a dual obligation between community and parent. One, of the parent to raise the child in the community and the other, of the community to care for the child should something happen to the parents. While we may intellectually move away from religion, the emotional and social need that some of these rituals fill doesn't easily fade away.

Another angle I hadn't thought much about! Glad to see you on here, Karrie, hope you are well. :smile:

 

[karrie]

Another angle I hadn't thought much about! Glad to see you on here, Karrie, hope you are well. :smile:

Thanks JLM, I am well. Summer has kept me hopping with vacations and company. I hope yours is treating you well, as well

 

[TenPenny]

A baptism is essentially a ceremony welcoming a new life into your tribe. .

Yep, exactly. Initiation into the club. That is the over riding point.

 

[karrie]

Yep, exactly. Initiation into the club. That is the over riding point.

Yep. There are as many versions of them as there are cultures. The atheist one I went to was called a 'naming'. Pretty neat.

 

[Cliffy]

Yep, exactly. Initiation into the club. That is the over riding point.

It goes back to tribal living. It helps with tribal continuity and cohesion. It is definitely a social binder more than a religious rite. It dates back before religion. Tribal spirituality grew into religion as the tribe became to big to control with the old ways. It went hand in hand with nation states and kingdoms.

 

[petros]

I suppose you haven't heard the good news!

You can NEVER earn salvation - because you don't earn gifts. And just to reminder that you have up until your very moment of death to accept the gift of salvation. I hope for you Petros.

The real good news or the born yesterday version?

No? Are you sure? Salvation isn't handed to you as a gift. It's requres a lifetime of dedication, admission and repenting for your guilts and ASKING for salvation.

 

[darkbeaver]

I wuz reading something innerestin aboot baptism a while ago, I'll look for it, entertain yerseffs while I'm gone.

 

[gerryh]

The purpose of baptism. I notice that plenty of people have taken the religious route in addressing it, and I really can't help but feel that this is a serious oversimplification of what baptism means to families, and to communities.

Really, oversimplification, I'll need to remember that. Those of us that look at baptism from a religious view point only are simplistic.

 

[petros]

Baptism, anointing and washing up before entering a Mosque all come from the Hebrews.

JERUSALEM — Israeli archaeologists say they have uncovered a ritual bath in Jerusalem that was likely used by Jewish pilgrims coming to the temple two millenia ago.

The bath is located next to the Temple Mount, the compound in Jerusalem's Old City where two Biblical Temples stood. The second was destroyed by Roman legions in 70 A.D.

The Israel Antiquities Authority says the stone bath was likely used for ritual purification by pilgrims who came to the Temple three times a year.

Similar ritual baths are still used by Jews for purification.

The site that once housed the temples is now Islam's third-holiest site, known to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary. The ritual bath was found under homes in what is now the Old City's Muslim Quarter.

 

[Cliffy]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "[Non-Christians] ascribe to their idols the imbuing of waters with the self-same efficacy [of purification]. ... For washing is the channel through which they are initiated into some sacred rites--of some notorious Isis or Mithras... [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Moreover, by carrying water around, and sprinkling it, they everywhere expiate country-seats, houses, temples, and whole cities: at all events, at the Apollinarian and Eleusinian games they are baptized; and they presume that the effect of their doing that is their regeneration and the remission of the penalties due to their perjuries. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Among the ancients, again, whoever had defiled himself with murder, was wont to go in quest of purifying waters."—I.e. Washing away sin! [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][Tertullian, On Baptism, Ch 5.] [/FONT]

 

[In Between Man]

The real good news or the born yesterday version?

No? Are you sure? Salvation isn't handed to you as a gift. It's requres a lifetime of dedication, admission and repenting for your guilts and ASKING for salvation.

What are you basing this belief on, because that's not what the bible says. Surely a repenting person is an asking person because they're asking for forgiveness, and when done through Jesus Christ you're now born again, a new creature, saved. Salvation received. It doesn't take a "lifetime of dedication". That would put only a very small handful of people into heaven, and God's plan is bigger and better than that.

So again, if you don't believe in the bible's definition of salvation, what do you base your claim of a "lifetime of dedication" on? It's sounds like the true definition of "religious thinking" if you ask me.

 

[talloola]

The purpose of baptism. I notice that plenty of people have taken the religious route in addressing it, and I really can't help but feel that this is a serious oversimplification of what baptism means to families, and to communities.
__________________________________________________________________________________
remembering back to my 'catholic' days, cleansing of the original sin, is the only reason for baptism,
but I have no idea what the present day catholics do, maybe its just the same as I remember, or?

and yes, I guess the godparents were also expected to take responsibility of the child if parents
dissapeared for some reason, but I have never seen that come to be, because relatives seem to be
the obvious choices for that problem.

Karrie, this new style of baptism seems interesting, and non religious, so then what exactly is the
purpose of doing it.

 

[Cliffy]

What are you basing this belief on, because that's not what the bible says. Surely a repenting person is an asking person because they're asking for forgiveness, and when done through Jesus Christ you're now born again, a new creature, saved. Salvation received. It doesn't take a "lifetime of dedication". That would put only a very small handful of people into heaven, and God's plan is bigger and better than that.

So again, if you don't believe in the bible's definition of salvation, what do you base your claim of a "lifetime of dedication" on? It's sounds like the true definition of "religious thinking" if you ask me.

If it is all that simple, what is the incentive to be good. You are saved, after all, so you don't have to treat your neighbour with dignity and respect, you don't have to obey the ten commandments, you can have sex with your children, your neighbour's wife and/or husband, you can rob your customers and beat your wife. Sorry, but I have met a lot of born againers who do all that because they are saved and don't have to worry about consequences (at least in their minds). Many were pillars of their church and communities.

 

[Bar Sinister]

That's very sad that you've chosen to believe that.

Did Peter, who knew Jesus, did he exist?

What about Paul, who wrote a good portion of the NT, did he exist? What about lesser known persons named in the bible, like the sorcerer Paul told off, Elymas, did he exist?

How about King David? Saul? Jonathan? Ruth? Boaz? Mary? Abraham? Isacc? Joseph? Daniel? How about King Darius who threw Daniel into the lions pit? He never existed either?

It's fascinating that you pick-and-choose who think is real and who isn't, for your own convenience, while criticizing people who believe that they all existed.

I'm not picking and choosing anything. I was simply pointing out that from a historical viewpoint the evidence regarding Christ is rather tenuous. First of all it is all second hand since most of what is in the New Testament of the Bible was written long after the supposed eye-witnesses to Christ's life were all dead. Take one simple example. According to the Bible Christ's case was actually brought before Pontius Pilate; however, there is no record in the Roman literature of the time. That means so far as the Roman governor of Judea was concerned the case either did not take place or was so minor that no one bothered to record it. That does not mean the incident never occurred, but it does mean that Christ was a rather minor figure at best so far as the Romans were concerned.

It is therefore, entirely possible that the life of Christ was completely fabricated. Most Biblical scholars do not believe this, however, but not because of the overwhelming amount of evidence in favour of Christ's existence. Instead they base their conclusions on the fact that many people claim to have known Christ or knew someone who claimed to know Christ. The mere fact that so many people made this claim indicates that there probably was someone calling himself Christ. Whether or not this mysterious figure was the son of God, however, can quite easily be questioned in that there are no really reliable witnesses to anything that Christ did who could read or write. As such the historical record regarding Christ is second hand at best, and no amount of faith can change that fact.